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SACD - a new life?

post #1 of 35
2/9/07 at 10:16am
Thread Starter 
I know this is a software forum, but I found this news announcement interesting for SACD fans:

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...everybody.html

Sony it appears still hasn't thrown in the towel on SACD, although I am surprised that their high end Blu-Ray player still does not play SACDs. Now, if Sony Music (and others) would just step up SACD releases, I'd be a happy camper.

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post #2 of 35
2/9/07 at 10:20am

Re: SACD - a new life?

The Sony DVP-NS9100ES is an exceptional SACD Player. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase this model if I had the budget. But I'll get by with my Denon DVD-2930CI for the time being.

SACD isn't going away anytime soon.
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post #3 of 35
2/9/07 at 10:48am

Re: SACD - a new life?

"All the above components will go on sale in Japan from March 10. With the TA-F501 digital amplifier selling for 93,450 Yen ($ 770), SCD-X501 SACD player will go for 70350 Yen ($ 580) and the SS-K10ED speaker set will also sell for 70350 Yen ($ 580)."

http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/...io_systems.php
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post #4 of 35
2/9/07 at 11:40am

Re: SACD - a new life?

I don't think this piece of news was ever mentioned at this particular forum, but several weeks back.....

Sony announces the introduction of the first car SACD player

Actually, 3 new decks from Sony that support SACD in stereo/multi-channel playback.

Late March/early April will be exciting times for SACD fans as Genesis and the Moody Blues release their long-awaited SACD titles.

By the way, the speakers mentioned above, or a very similar version of them, were cleared out by Circuit City last year at $60.00/pair. You can read about them here. I was very tempted as Positive Feedback gave the floorstanding version a rave.
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post #5 of 35
2/9/07 at 11:45am

Re: SACD - a new life?

So when are they gonna put out something to PLAY on them??
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post #6 of 35
2/9/07 at 12:32pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Unfortunately Sony Music and Sony Electronics are not the same unit and not exactly on the same page. It would be at least nice if Sony Music would license their stuff to MoFi. Yes it would not be cheap vs. what a regular label hybrid would go for but it's better than nothing.
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post #7 of 35
2/10/07 at 12:07pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

I'm really surprised the music studios aren't on board with SACD and DVD-A moreso. You'd think that high resolution audio would be a good reason to convince someone to buy an album rather than download it illegally.
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post #8 of 35
2/10/07 at 12:24pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Berggren
I'm really surprised the music studios aren't on board with SACD and DVD-A moreso. You'd think that high resolution audio would be a good reason to convince someone to buy an album rather than download it illegally.


The problem is that people who are not seriously into the hobby (the avg. public) prefer just a clean copy of songs. A decent MP3 is going to satisfy lots of people (not me). The music industry (main stream labels) has been slow to change (its distribution methodology) and has paid big dollars to many artists that have mediocre talent. The price of albums and the fact that many don't have that multiple quality songs (vs. downloading individual songs) has slowed music sales. Audiophiles don't make up much of the market so they don't really care. It's a shame as they can make a profit on name stuff or selectively license it out to an audiophile label if they don't want to do it themselves. Look at the Doors box set that took a month to sell out 20k copies on DVD-A (and the set was not cheap). There are many other artists that can result in a similar type demand for hi-rez (either format). One would think before the record labels complain about downloading (and losing profits) they would at least skim the cream from the top and start releasing some more of this stuff (and make a few dollars and keep a segment of their market of better paying customers happy).
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post #9 of 35
2/10/07 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD - a new life?

I'm convinced if Sony would have adopted the hybrid version from Day 1 (regardless of multi-channel), the format war would have been over quickly. Insteady, the route they took (as well as many but not all other labels) resulted in dual inventory for many retailers.

The irony is Sony can force Sony music to release content for SACD - problem is (chicken and egg) that Sony Music is still responsible for operating a profitable unit. And if they rack up lower profits (or losses) because of SACD, that's their ultimate reason for not supporting the format and it becomes a chicken and egg situation.

Argh!
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post #10 of 35
2/10/07 at 8:27pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
I'm convinced if Sony would have adopted the hybrid version from Day 1 (regardless of multi-channel), the format war would have been over quickly

I don't think they could have. As it was it was known at launch that surround was forthcoming, but only stereo playback was possible at first.

DVD-Audio could never get their combo disc to work properly, and by the time they came up with Dual Disc it was too late.

I have a feeling that the launch of the PS3 is part of this SACD resurgence, since the units fully support it. Digital multichannel output thru HDMI at 88.4KHz is a wonderful thing
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post #11 of 35
2/10/07 at 8:37pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-W
I'm convinced if Sony would have adopted the hybrid version from Day 1 (regardless of multi-channel), the format war would have been over quickly

That would'nt have made a difference.

The extra revenue gained would be outweighed by the extra cost of producing hybrid discs. The amount of people that care about sound quality is ridiculously small. The hi-rez audio format war was a battle to win a small niche market, and the studios will soon realize that HD video will be a niche market as well (although not as small as Hi-rez audio).
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post #12 of 35
2/10/07 at 8:52pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
That would'nt have made a difference.

The extra revenue gained would be outweighed by the extra cost of producing hybrid discs. The amount of people that care about sound quality is ridiculously small. The hi-rez audio format war was a battle to win a small niche market, and the studios will soon realize that HD video will be a niche market as well (although not as small as Hi-rez audio).


At this point I've have to largely agree. If HD Video is going to be more than a niche market they better get moving really fast (and start releasing all new titles, popular back catalog ones and make the software pricing virtually at DVD levels and get the hardware down to the point where the avg. person needing a DVD player will make the purchase). When DVD came out it was head and shoulders above VHS. I don't think for most people the difference between DVD and HD video discs is of the same magnitude. Also, there was no digital over-the-air TV when DVD came out with 1080i/720p content, TIVO-like devices, digital hi-def cable on demand, satellite TV with HD too (and stuff like FIOS too) and with more broadband connections available internet TV will get bigger too. So there is a lot more competition for better than DVD picture quality out there. Direct TV and DISH alone have about 28M customers between them. So the time frame for HD video to get established with customers as a mainstream format is ticking quickly.
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post #13 of 35
2/11/07 at 5:39am

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-W
I know this is a software forum, but I found this news announcement interesting for SACD fans:

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...everybody.html

Sony it appears still hasn't thrown in the towel on SACD, although I am surprised that their high end Blu-Ray player still does not play SACDs. Now, if Sony Music (and others) would just step up SACD releases, I'd be a happy camper.

Wouldny ya think having this player do SACD would only be good for SACD sales? Sony just thinks differently then i do.
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post #14 of 35
2/11/07 at 8:16am

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil A
At this point I've have to largely agree. If HD Video is going to be more than a niche market they better get moving really fast (and start releasing all new titles, popular back catalog ones and make the software pricing virtually at DVD levels and get the hardware down to the point where the avg. person needing a DVD player will make the purchase).

The problem is that they can only go as fast as the HDTV market goes, because right now they're only limited to 10% of homes (which is the size of the HDTV market) - so right off the bat it's an uphill battle. Within that 10%, what percentage will care about HD discs? HDTVs are selling more and more, but it'll take a long time until we see HDTVs in 50% of homes.

Anyways, we should keep this on topic.

That Sony player really is nice to look at (although I'd love to have the Sony logo removed). That's one thing I love about higher end audio equipment, is the asthetics of them. They look so sturdy, yet polished and elegant.
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post #15 of 35
2/11/07 at 8:26am

Re: SACD - a new life?

There's also something to be said of the convenience factor with the general public. If they can sit in their homes and download quality MP3s, that's going to appeal to many as sufficient quality and convenience. Same of hi-def video - if they can sit in their homes and choose hi-def movies from the internet or digital cable on demand it may not matter if the discs look a bit better. With the avg. public convenience that saves them time with their busy schedules is something that often gets overlooked vs. just a discussion of quality issues. The avg. public is not someone who would belong to a forum like this and visit on a regular basis.
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post #16 of 35
2/11/07 at 4:07pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Digital multichannel output thru HDMI at 88.4KHz is a wonderful thing
Unfortunately very few receivers right now include the capability to actually process audio from an HDMI connection, rather than just acting as a switching device for those audio signals.

After spending an hour and a half reading various manufacturers' websites a couple weeks ago before writing a related post elsewhere, I found that it will cost one at least $800 for a receiver with HDMI audio processing. IMO this will not help sales of multichannel music, not when so many Average Joes think spending $300 on say, a complete 5.1 PC system from Logitech, is "insane".

Quote:
So when are they gonna put out something to PLAY on them??
On other forums when I try to promote surround music, I really do try to include sacd, but it's very difficult because of the severe lack of more mainstream pop/rock music, particularly modern varieties. And when you tell them they will need six cables to do so........ This is when I make sure to mention the Dolby/DTS tracks on dvd-audio discs are available via a regular optical connection. To me anyway, to non-audio hobbyists the Dolby and especially DTS lossy formats sound very good-to-excellent compared to a 120kbps AAC file, so pushing the hi-res formats with them is rather a waste of time.
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post #17 of 35
2/11/07 at 6:56pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
the Dolby and especially DTS lossy formats sound very good-to-excellent
That's how I got started in all of this. Donald Fagen's Nightfly in DD. I always thought music in 5.1 would help push hi-res. I was wrong about that too except for concert dvd's which are somewhat successful. When Boz Skaggs Greatest Hits Live concert dvd is released in HD-DVD and True DD/DTS-HD I'm heading straight to the store (or computer).
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post #18 of 35
2/11/07 at 8:37pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Check out this handsome Super Audio CD player by Denon:



BTW: It's their flagship model in this particular line, it is 2-channel only, it retails for 500,000 yen (approx $4,350) and is available only in Japan. I have heard this player played through a tube amp into a pair of B&W 804s speakers. The depth, clarity and detail were amazing on SACD as compared to CD, which had a much flatter, more 2D soundstage.
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post #19 of 35
2/15/07 at 1:47pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Sony also put an SACD player in the Playstation 3, so they obviously don't see it as dead yet.
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post #20 of 35
2/15/07 at 4:36pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

There is still lots of hardware available. Marantz has a new 2-channel SACD/CD player that is supposed to be really good - $6.5-7k. Meitner (www.emmlabs.com) just came out with a new $10k player too. They make some of the equipment that is used in the mastering process. So there is no shortage of hardware. There continues to be a steady stream of classical and jazz releases by non-mainstream labels and an occasional surprise here or there that sometimes is not released in the US but is available at a premium. There are also many titles out of print or going that way soon. That's one of reasons I ended up selling my Modwright XA-777ES a bit over a yr. ago (a good portion of the mods were to multi-channel and I tend to prefer stereo) while I could get something decent for it. I suspect there will be software around for a bit but probably not tons of it and probably not too many mainstream non-classical and non-jazz ones.
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post #21 of 35
2/16/07 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD - a new life?

it's frustrating to see such hardware support but so little in the way of software. It seems we were getting more releases more frequently 2-3 years ago versus now. Argh!
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post #22 of 35
2/16/07 at 2:25pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

I don't really follow the release schedules. However, since Borders has started carrying a lot of classical SACD's, my collection has tripled, all in the past six months. There is a pretty significant amount of classical available on SACD. I'd agree though, that in rock, the format seems to be all but dead. Pity, too. I'd love to have Aja and a few more select Pink Floyd albums for the collection.
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post #23 of 35
2/21/07 at 12:48am

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
The hi-rez audio format war was a battle to win a small niche market

The labels may realize that now. What I think it really was, was a battle to shove copy protection / DRM down the public's throat (just like with SDMI). The labels probably hoped there would be a forklift upgrade from CD (similar to the forklift upgrade from LP to CD), and naturally, companies salivated at the prospect of collecting the associated format royalty streams.

This backfired and now hi-rez audio is a niche.
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post #24 of 35
2/21/07 at 3:58am

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Newton
The labels may realize that now. What I think it really was, was a battle to shove copy protection / DRM down the public's throat (just like with SDMI). The labels probably hoped there would be a forklift upgrade from CD (similar to the forklift upgrade from LP to CD), and naturally, companies salivated at the prospect of collecting the associated format royalty streams.

This backfired and now hi-rez audio is a niche.

Not really.

The lack of releases is what hurt it.

Software sells hardware. If each and every major release had a SACD version/layer then more people would have been aware of it. A handful of past releases won't cut it.
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post #25 of 35
2/21/07 at 7:57am

Re: SACD - a new life?

What good was the hardware when how many years did it take for the players to have a half a$$ BM? Some still dont have much of one.
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post #26 of 35
2/21/07 at 6:40pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX
Not really.

The lack of releases is what hurt it.

Software sells hardware. If each and every major release had a SACD version/layer then more people would have been aware of it. A handful of past releases won't cut it.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but in a time where CD sales are continually dropping and MP3 sales are increasing, why would improved sound quality matter to people?

They could've made every single CD release a hybrid SACD, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference as the vast majority would still be playing the unprotected CD layer or moving over to MP3s.

Had SACD been released instead of CDs, then it would've been the default standard today as it would offer major benefits over cassette/vinyl. As it stands the only benefit that SACD offers over CD is improved sound quality, and most people won't notice and/or won't care.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are headed down a very similar path, but will fair better as the market for people who care about improved video quality is larger than those who care about sound quality.
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post #27 of 35
2/21/07 at 7:37pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but in a time where CD sales are continually dropping and MP3 sales are increasing, why would improved sound quality matter to people?

They could've made every single CD release a hybrid SACD, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference as the vast majority would still be playing the unprotected CD layer or moving over to MP3s.

Had SACD been released instead of CDs, then it would've been the default standard today as it would offer major benefits over cassette/vinyl. As it stands the only benefit that SACD offers over CD is improved sound quality, and most people won't notice and/or won't care.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are headed down a very similar path, but will fair better as the market for people who care about improved video quality is larger than those who care about sound quality.

Always keep in mind that you don't have to have the entire market to be profitable. You just (to simplify) make more than you spend on the format. The world is a big place. Everyone wants to kick the ball out of the park. Yet, there's still room for someone who wants to make a modest profit selling SACD's to a small market, such as classical, instead of selling millions of them to a market that doesn't care (mainstream pop).
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post #28 of 35
2/21/07 at 9:06pm

Re: SACD - a new life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtEP
Always keep in mind that you don't have to have the entire market to be profitable. You just (to simplify) make more than you spend on the format. The world is a big place. Everyone wants to kick the ball out of the park. Yet, there's still room for someone who wants to make a modest profit selling SACD's to a small market, such as classical, instead of selling millions of them to a market that doesn't care (mainstream pop).

No doubt.

There are many companies that do fine selling products to niche markets. I have no problems with a niche product, and in some cases I prefer it as usually quality standards seem to be higher (as opposed to something that's mass produced).

I think Sony initially wanted SACD to be a widespread product as their license on the CD format was running out and the fact that they were using hybrids to try to push the format. It didn't take that long for them to realize that it just wasn't going to work out, especially after the MP3 revolution was starting.
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post #29 of 35
2/22/07 at 6:58am

Re: SACD - a new life?

I keep hearing rumors Apple will soon announce lossless audio downloads.

My system at home is hardly top 'o the line but you'd need to be deaf not to hear the difference in MP3 to CD much less SACD/DVD-A.

I tried to listen to some MP3's and just can't. Honestly I don't hear a whole lot of difference in my Logitech 2 channels in the office and they do sound decent for the $100 they were. Even in my car with MB Quartz speakers I need to be at 320kbps before its even listenable.

You need to hear good sound to want good sound otherwise your point of reference is what you hear.

Very few people apparently figure out on their own what is missing.

A hi-res standard based on the new HD formats is what will help the most since it will be more common place.

Its a a lot of money to listen to DVD-A and SACD properly. How many of you don't have analog bass management on your systems? If you don't have analog bass management your missing most of the experience. So on top of the receiver your looking at min $350-$400 to just handle bass management between the manager and cabling.

That is not something a lot of people are willing to do.
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post #30 of 35
2/22/07 at 7:42am

Re: SACD - a new life?

Eric,

I’m somewhat new to this forum so please forgive my question.

When you refer to bass management are you talking about an AV Receiver that separates out the bass from all the speakers at a determined Hz and sends it all to the sub-woofer? Is that Bass Management?

And as for SACD players are concerned, when you use the six analogue audio outputs from the player into the AV Receiver it still uses Bass Management and manipulates the Bass as suggested in the above part of this post?
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