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Deep Space Nine: For the Fans - Page 3

post #61 of 226
3/22/07 at 4:32am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I agree with Chris on this one. Melora was way to bitchy. There are a lot of people who are handicapped that can still be civil. She was so insubordinate that she would have been drummed out of Starfleet. You don't talk to higher ranking officers the way she did and get away with it.

She was just so irritating to watch, it was hard to have and feeling of sorrow or pity for her or her situation..

By the way, she wasn't really handicapped. She could easily go back to her planet and be normal. This is why I didn't understand her anger. She is choosing this life, it wasn't thrown at her. We all can't have the careers that we want. I want to be an astronaut, but It will never happen. And even if I were, I wouldn't get all angry and bitter because I have to wear a space suit when I am walking on another planet. That is what I get for wanting to go. She shouldnt be bitter because she has to sit in a wheelchair on another planet/space station. She knew what she was getting into.
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post #62 of 226
3/22/07 at 9:54am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

1/2 way through disc 4.
Weird how they keep meeting these new species in the gamma quadrant that just happen to speak english over and over again....
Even TOS had the occasional alien that spoke, well, alien..

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post #63 of 226
3/22/07 at 10:38am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Guess the Universal translator they have built into the com badges works real good.
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post #64 of 226
3/22/07 at 1:25pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Weird how they keep meeting these new species in the gamma quadrant that just happen to speak english over and over again....
Even TOS had the occasional alien that spoke, well, alien..

My favorite explanation for this kind of thing actually comes from the Stargate SG-1 creators. It was something like they can spend entire episodes learning to communicate on a basic level every time they get to a new planet, but most people tune in for the scifi action/drama.
I'd have to say I'm in the latter category. Particularly where Trek is concerned as they have written in the universal translator crutch. Considering that, its actually more odd that Klingons can speak Klingon without it being translated into English.

Qapla'!
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post #65 of 226
3/22/07 at 3:03pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
I agree with Chris on this one. Melora was way to bitchy. There are a lot of people who are handicapped that can still be civil. She was so insubordinate that she would have been drummed out of Starfleet. You don't talk to higher ranking officers the way she did and get away with it.

I wasn't excusing her behavior, I just noticed that Chris disliked her for reasons I felt just weren't there.

Quote:
By the way, she wasn't really handicapped. She could easily go back to her planet and be normal. This is why I didn't understand her anger. She is choosing this life, it wasn't thrown at her...She shouldnt be bitter because she has to sit in a wheelchair on another planet/space station. She knew what she was getting into.


I thought I basically said that?

You seem to think I'm defending her actions. I'm not - I couldn't stand her either. However I understood why she was the way she was, is all. Not handicapped but treated like it anyway, developed a bad attitude as a result of her being treated differently, and seemed to let that attitude get the better of her despite being an Ensign.

So...how 'bout those Maquis? One of them is Betty's father Ignacio on "Ugly Betty" now. Give 'em hell, Sisko!
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post #66 of 226
3/23/07 at 5:20am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Last summer, I started introducing my wife to TNG and it didn't take long for her to become a big fan. We're on the 7th season now, and we're going to start DS9 right after. I'm really looking forward to that, since it will be the first time I've seen the episodes since the DVD releases in 2003 and it will be the first time she's ever seen them. Some of the plot lines have really made her curious. For example, she knows Riker and Troi eventually get married, but after seeing "Second Chances," and seeing that Tom Riker lived, she wanted to know which Riker it was that she married. (I wouldn't tell.) Watching DS9 is going to be great.
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post #67 of 226
3/23/07 at 6:52am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Scott captured everything I was thinking about Melora. She's just unlikeable the whole episode so I don't want to sit through it again. At least not unless I'm showing the series to someone else.
On the flip side, Winn is the person I love to hate. She's also unlikeable in every episode but in a much different way.

I was watching Past Tense last night and thinking how the story reminded me of the kind of stories they'd tell on original Trek. I was thinking the same thing when I watched Second Sight. I could totally see Kirk in Sisko's place with either episode.
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post #68 of 226
3/23/07 at 1:17pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I hated Kira when I first started watching the series - for the very reasons Melora is so lambasted. However in Kira's case, I grew to understand her history, and I think she's fantastic. Anyone else start out disliking Kira because of her attitude?

I fondly recall a scene in 'Past Prologue' where Sisko says to her, "Go over my head again, and I'll have yours on a platter". Even a simple exchange like that separates this from TNG. Love it.
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post #69 of 226
3/23/07 at 4:21pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Interesting Nicholas. I would probably have not liked Kira had I watched the show from the beginning, but I started watching the show in syndication and came in during the last quarter or so of season 7. I then started from the beginning. I knew what she grew into so I never disliked here even though her disposition was bad. Actually, she was, by far, my favorite character, but it is interesting to think what I would have thought had I not started late in the show's run.
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post #70 of 226
3/23/07 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I think there is a great contrast in what you do with characters here.

I think Miles & Keiko make a great example of this.

If you look at Voyager, the other Trek show on at the same time, it later "borrowed" characters from TNG (Barkley). The DS9 writing team managed to build a backstory for Miles, to turn a minor character into a major character, and to make him fully fleshed out. Whereas Barkley on Voyager was just an over-inflated bundle of all the archetypes he presented on TNG. No additional depth.

The more I watch and appreciate DS9, the more I think about this. There are about twenty characters who developed unique storylines and you began to know them, even those who weren't with the show forever..

Sisko
Kira
Jadzia
Miles
Julian
Quark
Odo
Garak
Keiko
Rom
Nog
Jake
Dukat
Weyoun
Leeta
Kassidy Yates
Kai Winn
Eddington
Vedek Bariel

All of these characters kind of moved beyond just "eh, they are there" and you began to understand what motivated them. That's something a lot of other treks really fall apart on. Voyager never managed to make you believe the characters or understand what motivated them, what they really cared about. Even TNG struggled at times to give purpose to characters. Even when you despised a character on DS9, you at least felt as though you "bought in" to why they were doing it. That made the bad guys all that more bad. You believed that the Founders did what they did because they found it "just" and they made their case and you felt as though they believed it. You knew that Winn was a power hungry b*&ch, but they played it so that it wasn't cardboard; by the end, you knew that she had a deep longing for importance, and she'd go to any length to be respected and feared by anybody.

I'll have to read some of the books, because this is a show that's ripe for continuation in a literary form.
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post #71 of 226
3/24/07 at 1:36am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I liked Kira right away.
I have no problem liking a character because of their behavior.
Everyone's now saying "I don't like Locke anymore..." or "I HATE Starbuck..."
when I think a show would be really dull if every character was all noble etc...
One of my fave characters from Buffy is Spike, one of my faves from Angel is Wesley. They do totally messed up things and have very questionable morals and often act very selfishly but I love them as characters.
Anyways, I liked Kira right away and one reason is because she was kinda uppity. The ep. I just watched with Brian Keith (mid s1) showed a different side to her and was great.

but hell, I liked all the characters in "Requiem for a dream..."

Maybe because in my own life, I have known several VERY messed up and dark individuals, was sorta one myself at one time.

d

By the way, S1 is gradually getting better but still is a pale shadow of the show it becomes later.
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post #72 of 226
6/25/07 at 10:11pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I just started season one again this week. With a show where everyone changed so much, it's a little daunting to know how much lies ahead. But, I'm enjoying season one more than I thought I would, and probably more than I did the first time. I dreaded the one where the virus caused everyone to use the wrong words, but it wasn't so bad. I'm up through Captive Pursuits, and the worst thing so far was Sisko's "YOW!" on the beach. I'm glad he never, ever did THAT again (that I remember).
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post #73 of 226
6/25/07 at 10:18pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

The interesting thing about re-watching it is how much forshadowing about the dominion there was.. even in Season 1, by the end, there were rumors of it. That's some great follow through.
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post #74 of 226
6/25/07 at 11:24pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Oh, yeah. Q-Less wasn't great, but I'm no big Q fan anyway.
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post #75 of 226
6/26/07 at 12:27am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

glad i found this thread! i've seen most of star trek except DS9+Voyager. i've already finished enterprise during its initial broadcast... so i'm not watching that garbage again =P.

i have been going back to TOS and currently am on season3 (spock's brain .

i'll have to finish the animated series, the movies and TNG before i move to DS9 =). but i'm glad that i get to watch it in great company =P.
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post #76 of 226
6/26/07 at 12:58am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
i'll have to finish the animated series, the movies and TNG before i move to DS9 =). but i'm glad that i get to watch it in great company =P.
You've never watched DS9? You're in for a great ride... one which I finally completed only two years ago, but boy was it worth it!
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post #77 of 226
6/26/07 at 4:28am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I recently started watching again from Season 1. I'm introducing my wife to the show. She loved TNG (which we just finished) and when I told her DS9 was even better, she wanted to see it. Season 1 has some great moments, although the show hasn't yet found it's focus. But even not-so-good shows like Move Along Home (which we watched last night and which plays like a Fred Freiberger-produced episode of the original series) have great character moments, which of course is one of the series' strengths. It may take us the better part of a year (we watch 3 or 4 a week), but it will be a great time. I've told her she has no idea the great things that are in store, and those will have much more resonance if she watches from the beginning.
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post #78 of 226
6/26/07 at 6:11am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

yeah i've seen most of TOS/TNG through syndication ... 10 years ago . i've always watched all of the movies, generations was in the cinema on opening day and i haven't missed it in the cinema since that. i also watched ENT when it first aired live broadcast. i've seen bits and pieces of VOY. i think i've seen most of season1, but got 2busy with life to go back.

re: DS9 i remember watching emissary when it first debuted! it was because picard =). so that gimmick worked i think i saw half of season1 but again, 2busy. didn't follow up.

so i can't remember what's in what season or who's who. that's why i always wanted to go back to start @TOS and work my way through what is available now before the movie comes out next year.

i just finished season1&2 and was surprised that checkov+sulu weren't really onscreen much together until season3! and season3 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. it's no better or worse than 1&2. i absolutely love the writing. none of the subsequent treks i've seen so far have the quality of TOS writing.


once i finish season3, it's TAS, the movies again and TNG THEN DS9.

funnily enough, i have managed to watched both DS9 and VOY's series finale. i just had to know what happened to them in the end. it's just like me to turn to the last few pages of the book to find out what happens (i don't usually). anyways. glad to find this thread.
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post #79 of 226
6/26/07 at 10:24am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

It's probably good you're watching TNG first, because I personally can barely even watch it after DS9. The characters are good and there are some great episodes, but it's all very bland in comparison.
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post #80 of 226
6/26/07 at 10:41am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Oh yeah.
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post #81 of 226
6/26/07 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
It's probably good you're watching TNG first, because I personally can barely even watch it after DS9. The characters are good and there are some great episodes, but it's all very bland in comparison.

This is very true. I find it very hard to go back and watch TNG because TNG never really allowed for a lot of character conflict or change. I watched a few episodes of DS9 last night and I really love how relationships and characters changed and had to accept or deal with the changes. Sometimes small changes, sometimes big changes.
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post #82 of 226
6/26/07 at 7:22pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

which is why i really think there is still a potential to introduce those conflicts into a TNG film but that never materialized (pun intended). they had 4 chances and blew all 4 chances. *sigh*. coulda' been so much more. lots of potentials gone to waste.
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post #83 of 226
6/28/07 at 6:04pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I watched "Move Along Home" last night, and it was pretty bad. But, even in it's badness, you can't hate it. That's just Trek. They were always doing goofy little one-offs like that. It was actually pretty good stuff until the game started, and it had its moments after that. The worst thing about the episode was some of the acting. Siddig was pretty rough at first, with a pretty embarrassing performance in "The Passenger," and in "Move Along" to a lesser extent. And, Visitor's line about, "I didn't sign up for this!" was poorly conceived and poorly delivered.

Thankful, episodes like this are very much the exception. I'm just glad "The Nagus" is coming up. Just thinking about Wallace Shawn makes me LOL.
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post #84 of 226
6/29/07 at 1:13am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
which is why i really think there is still a potential to introduce those conflicts into a TNG film but that never materialized (pun intended). they had 4 chances and blew all 4 chances. *sigh*. coulda' been so much more. lots of potentials gone to waste.

While I generally agree with you, it should be pointed out that in the excellent "First Contact" movie there are quite a few confrontational scenes, including the infamous Worf/Picard exchange that led to Worf stating "If you were any other man, I would kill you where you stand!" Ultimately, though, this didn't lead to any long term character changes, and I guess that's your point.
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post #85 of 226
6/29/07 at 1:30am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_S_H
I watched "Move Along Home" last night, and it was pretty bad. But, even in it's badness, you can't hate it. That's just Trek. They were always doing goofy little one-offs like that. It was actually pretty good stuff until the game started, and it had its moments after that. The worst thing about the episode was some of the acting. Siddig was pretty rough at first, with a pretty embarrassing performance in "The Passenger," and in "Move Along" to a lesser extent. And, Visitor's line about, "I didn't sign up for this!" was poorly conceived and poorly delivered.

Thankful, episodes like this are very much the exception. I'm just glad "The Nagus" is coming up. Just thinking about Wallace Shawn makes me LOL.

Yeah ... "Move Along Home" and "If Wishes Were Horses" --both from DS9's first season--were close to being the weakest episodes in the entire run. (A case could be made that "Fascination" from season 3 was the weakest.) And they were still no worse than average Star Trek episodes. That alone tells you how strong this series was.
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post #86 of 226
6/29/07 at 4:49am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Watched Season 1's "Vortex" last night, and I was impressed with how much of the storyline regarding's Odo's people was set up. I remember when I saw that back in '93 when it aired, I didn't think much of it. But seeing it now, and seeing where the show went with what was established there, I was impressed at the foreshadowing.
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post #87 of 226
6/29/07 at 10:18am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I felt the same about a very minor bit of dialog in "The Nagus."

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
About the fire caves, which would eventually become very important.
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post #88 of 226
7/2/07 at 9:08am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

i disagree about FC being excellent. it could've been so much more (hence my point about potential), but it is a rehash of wrath of kahn instead. stick to safe formulas.

i'd love to see Q+Picard again. those 2 bracketed the TNG series and i'd love to see it on the big screen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
While I generally agree with you, it should be pointed out that in the excellent "First Contact" movie there are quite a few confrontational scenes, including the infamous Worf/Picard exchange that led to Worf stating "If you were any other man, I would kill you where you stand!" Ultimately, though, this didn't lead to any long term character changes, and I guess that's your point.
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post #89 of 226
7/2/07 at 10:32am

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I didn't mind Move Along or Wishes. The episode I despised from season 1 was Dramatis Personae. Here was an opportunity for real human conflict and drama, the hallmark of DS9, and instead we got altered minds and everybody back to being pals at the end. Why couldn't it have been a legitimate conflict between Sisko and Kira over the way to handle the Valerian ship? As it stands, the issue of the ship's cargo was not even addressed at the end.

From the positive words from the crew, as related in the excellent DS9 Companion, and from the ratings at tv.com, I believe I'm in the minority for disliking this episode. Really, though, I think Menosky is far more miss than hit with me. According to the same book, he was out of the country at the time and didn't even have a chance to watch DS9. Maybe that's why it was like he was writing for the old model Trek and didn't realize they were trying to do something different here. Not that DS9 was in full serialized, "what happens now matters later" mode this early. I think I remember from my last DS9 viewing session that his later episodes are also reset button eps, but I can't remember for sure just by the episode titles.
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post #90 of 226
7/2/07 at 12:58pm

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

You may not have liked "Dramatis Personae", but I loved it simply because I loved seeing Sisko crazy. He went from lazy to nervous to violent, and it was funny and disturbing at the same time.
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