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post #31 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Bryan
Wow. I don't know how, but somehow I missed the news that Michael Piller died. And it has been over a year now.
He did some great work.

He did indeed. His seasons in charge of TNG were the best that show ever was (season 3, and season 4 before Jeri Taylor) and he helped create the premise for DS9. While DS9 flourished under the leadership of Ira Steven Behr, Piller deserves a lot of credit too.

Every once in a while in Trek's history, someone has come along who helped transform it and make it better. Gene Coon did it, Harve Bennett did it, and Michael Piller did it.
post #32 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I can understand people not liking anything, or people who like anything. Hell, different tastes. I hate any ice cream with nuts in it. My wife loves it. Just different tastes.

Back to the show.

You know, the thing that really gets me is how relevent DS9 seems to be years later, far more so then almost any other show. I watch DS9, and the way they fleshed out the storyline seems to have a lot more impact with me now then it did even when it was original.

Storylines about the horrors of war (I'm thinking episodes in which Jake/Bashir were trapped in a hospital tending the wounded; or Nog coming back missing a leg and dealing with psychological trauma).

This was the trek that dealt with all of those issues. In say, TNG, you had Wolf 369, and then, two episodes later, everyone was back to exploring and things were right in the world.

In DS9, friends they knew died or were killed in those events and they struggled with it. By the time we hit Season 2, you had some absolutely great episodes that explored the impact of war and living under oppression that had occurred in a society.

The second season storyline regarding "The Circle" was, I thought, original thought. Here was a group of people on Bajor who were sick of being oppressed. And they could not see any difference between being oppressed by Cardassians vs. being "helped" by the Federation. They just wanted to be left alone.

At the time, I thought it was very interesting storycraft, a different take on how people might view the federation, and how xenophobia might form into a society. But you look at those episodes now, and they take on a strangely different meaning in the way world events happen.

Sanctuary, also in the same season, was a very Israeli-Palestinian type episode; a wayward people who thousands of years ago called bajor their home tried to come home.. only to be rejected and forced to move on.

Episodes surrounding the maquis gave them meaning.. why were they doing what they were doing. They weren't all "starfleet traitors" most of them were simple farmers and the former oppressed. You could sympathize with them.

I thought the show improved every season it was on, but I agree with some assessments that Season 2 was just a breakthrough season of what was going to happen in the future. It took Trek in a whole knew direction. It took concepts that were glanced over in the other series and focused on them and thought about their longterm impact. There were very few "resets" in the show. Things that happened in episode X were remembered in Episode Y, and sometimes with terrible consequences.

The later episodes of DS9 have such a different feel now that watching them now gives them a whole new context to evaluate them with.

When I go back and watch TNG, I feel like I'm watching a good scifi show that is occassionally great. DS9 is one of those shows, like current BSG, that manages to tell a story about our society represented in SciFi. It takes the larger issues that everyone deals with and frames them in a different way so they have meaning that can be changed and thought of by the audience.

Watching a show in which a space-alien baby tries to mate with the ship (Voy, TNG) may be fun, but the meaning doesn't change because of the watcher.

Watching an episode in which people fight for xenophobic possession of their homeland 8 years ago can be seen today and you feel it differently now then you did then.

To me, that's part of the artistry of DS9, that it's shows have such base themes so well played that we can relate them to real world events and it makes us think about the show being presented differently.

I enjoyed DS9 when it was on the air. Years later, I really love what this show did, all the way through.
post #33 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Very well put Chris.

I just wish I had more time and could re-watch DS9 more often. But between work, family and that much new great TV (BSG in particular), doesn't leave much time -- heck, in watching DS9 for the first time on DVD, I took forever in getting through S1 to S3, and it was only when I had a month between jobs that I got through S4 to S7.
post #34 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I don't know what I could say about DS9 that hasn't already been said in this thread or others. As someone who grew up loving TNG (ages 11-18), DS9 is truly Trek's finest hour. As I said in another thread, there really isn't a character that hasn't grown or changed extensively since the pilot. Julian Bashir and Kira Nerys are the best examples of that remarkable growth.

No matter what the future brings for Trek, I find it doubtful that they will ever be able to top the brilliance of episodes like Far Beyond the Stars or The Visitor.
post #35 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I can't really add much to what has aleady been stated here.

To me, DS9 *became* what I thought of as "Star Trek" -- even surpasing TOS, which I grew up with -- and it really spoiled me to the point that I couldn't really fully enjoy the much more generic Voyager or Enterprise series.

Indeed, when it came to Voyager, I have to admit that I stopped viewing it shortly after DS9 left the air. (A few years ago I stumbled onto a complete set of the series at a used DVD shop and finally viewed the last four seasons. There were some very good episodes scattered around in there ... but the series was wildy inconsistent. And it tried to be an anthology show when it should have been the ultimate linear Star Trek series.) As others have stated in this thread, when DS9 ended it left me wanting more ... but the relatively pale series that followed it in the Trek franchise were not up to the task of fulfilling that need.

In retrospect, the linear, and ultimately definitive, storytelling that we all grew to love in DS9 contributed to the death of the non-definitive anthology Trek series. (And I realize that Enterprise was a mostly linear show in its third season; and there was even some character development during that year, but the show somehow remained oddly non-definitive.)

And the really ironic fact here is that Paramount has yet to figure out that DS9 is currently considered by many to be the crown jewel of their post-TOS TV series franchises!
post #36 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

It was funny - when Voyager premiered, the UPN affiliate in New York (actually Secaucus, NJ) decided it would be a brilliant move to put it opposite DS9, which was syndicated and aired on Monday nights at 8. So for the winter and spring of 1995, DS9 and Voyager were on opposite one another.

So in the one of the largest TV markets in the country, which reached at that time about 10% of the country's population, programmers thought it was a good idea to split the Star Trek audience down the middle. Paramount couldn't have been happy, and fans certainly weren't. But letters to the stations did nothing.

I used to watch DS9 and tape Voyager, although Voyager was an unknown entity as yet, so it was a hard decision. Voyaer was the new kid on the block, with all the excitement that comes with that. However, in short order, I realized I made the right choice in "sticking by" DS9. Eventually, I thought "How could I have even thought otherwise?!?"

But yeah, those programming directors... real geniuses.
post #37 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I remember that. Voyager was repeated on another day and thats when I used to watch it.

I always had a soft spot of DS9's third season.
post #38 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

If it weren't for several people here not having the time to revisit, or are currently in the middle of revisiting the series on their own, I'd say a viewing challenge-type discussion thread is in order, starting from the beginning.
post #39 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Wow, this thread is a bit of an eye-opener for me.

Is DS9 really that well received among Star Trek fans now? I remember when even mentioning DS9 could start flame wars, with DS9 fans generally outnumbered.

I never liked the original series. That's partly because I didn't encounter it until much later when I was much older (I grew up overseas), and it simply didn't hold up well compared to what else was on TV at the time that I encountered it.

Then TNG came on the air. Everything Trekkies told me about TOS seemed to be true about TNG, and despite the command staff's propensity for holding endless interminable meetings, I really liked the show and I watched it a lot (which is saying something because I don't watch all that much TV). The TNG episodes I liked the most were the ones that involved ugly politics, particularly the Klingon episodes: backstabbing, machinations, flawed people doing ugly things to each other, in other words people acting like people instead of idealized near-utopian characters.

DS9 was a bit rough in the first season, but it had all the things I loved about the "ugly politics" episodes of TNG, but in much greater quantity. It didn't take long for me to become a rabid fan. I hadn't realized how annoying many of the Star Trek conventions were (episodic, the characters not flawed enough, and a boringly obvious separation between good and evil that is better off in children's stories) until I saw a Star Trek series without them (or at least less of them).

The captains tell you a lot about a Star Trek series. Kirk had spaz attacks and slept with alien ladies. Piccard held endless meetings. Janeway divided herself between meetings and posturing. Sisko simply barged in, kicked ass, went home, cooked a meal for his (regular!) girlfriend, then sat back and started feeling guilty about whatever people or regulations he had to run over to get things done.

The Star Trek franchise started going downhill after DS9, and the fans are at least partly to blame. So many fans bitched and moaned about how DS9 was bad because it was different from the Star Trek formula, so of course the people responsible for the franchise went right back to the formula with Voyager. Ugh.
post #40 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Which is very true because I remember at the time people in general,were still complaining about DS9. I remember reading in a article with I think it was Berman saying they wanted to get back to the trek in Trek and go back to exploration and the things that made the first 2 shows so great.

Throwing them in another quadrant meant exploring new aliens and systems. A big problem with Voyager IMHO was that those aliens just werent very interesting. Voyager couldnt touch the amazing performances characters stories and dialogue of DS9

Ive been watching DS9 constantly all week(14 hours today)Im coming to the end of S2 and Im loving it. The character intereaction is wonderful( especially between Quark,Odo and Garek). While Brooks was awkward in the first few episodes I think he really made the character his own quickly. Im also reminded of how entertaining alot of Sisko manuerisms are. His impassiveness is sometimes so fun to watch.A example was 3 Federation delegates who came to the station. They show up in Ops and Sisko sees them and turns around pretending not to see them. They call his name and he turns to greet them with a big smile on his face.

The sparring between Quark and Odo has made me laugh out loud quite a few times. The Ferengi episodes are hysterical.

Ive watched the occasion episodes here and there but havent watched a run of the show in a long time,so Im really enjoying it.
post #41 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

JonZ wrote (post #15):

Quote:
Planets were decimated, empires crumbled and planets crippled. We could still see the affects 30 years later. I dont think its pinpointed just to DS9, the war involved just about everybody. Politics and wars can affect countries/planets for decades.

Decades?!? Heck, centuries! (Forever, actually.) Reference Alexander's devastation of the Persian Empire. Closer to home, Hitler's war, which some (me included) believe actually enabled Soviet expansion.


Sean Bryan wrote (post #10):

Quote:
The criticism that "they never went anywhere" annoyed me, and I was always a bit frustrated that it didn't seem to be as popular as TNG.


Well, I was one of those critics---and still am. I still contend that the show got really interesting only once they started going places, and with authority(!).


Paul_Sjordal wrote (post #39):

Quote:
The Star Trek franchise started going downhill after DS9, and the fans are at least partly to blame. So many fans bitched and moaned about how DS9 was bad because it was different from the Star Trek formula, so of course the people responsible for the franchise went right back to the formula with Voyager. Ugh.

The "franchise" started going downhill after most of that same fan base had heavily rewarded Star Trek II's militaristic paradigm, which helped doom the movie series to unadventurous mediocrity. What motive would the producers feel to strive for narrative or character complexity in Voyager, if the simplistic "formulae" of the movies worked for them there, especially since DS 9 wasn't the hit they had originally envisioned?


Joseph Bolus wrote (post #35):


Quote:
And the really ironic fact here is that Paramount has yet to figure out that DS9 is currently considered by many to be the crown jewel of their post-TOS TV series franchises!

They haven't just not figured it out, they don't care. Their market research no doubt tells them that, to reach the largest audience (on large or small screen), they have to follow the dictates of their "new formula". In Nemesis they tried to combine the new militaristic paradigm, introduced by Mr. Bennett, with what they considered a knowing fan's type of script to please the hardcore "fanboy" types. It still flopped. Their only recourse after that seems to be to relive---which is to say, rehash---the original series on the big screen.

On the small screen they haven't a clue, as far as I can see.
post #42 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I've been going back and watching the series in order.

To be honest, I was surprised at how solid season 1 is. But Season 2 is definitely a stand out. There are numerous episodes in season two, including the opening three episodes, that really set the tone for DS9.

It openly addresses federation concerns. It gives meaning and provides depth to numerous characters like Wynn. The Marquis come across as having real motivation and you come to understand them. I'm almost through Season 4. Season 2 is thus far my favorite season. But seasons 1,3 and four are all very good, and sometimes great. I'm really enjoying going back and revisiting the series.
post #43 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I just finished. Watched all 7 seasons. I skipped only couple of the worst episodes, but otherwise watched it all the way through. Usually did 4 or 5 a night, the occassional episode at work and a couple weekends of prob about 30 hours of DS9

I thnk I enjoyed Season2 less than 1, 3 or 4. There were some GREAT episodes but IMHO less than those other seasons.

I have a new appreciation for Armin Shimerman. Quark was always someone I didnt like or dislike either way really, but revisiting these - he was brilliant playing that character.
post #44 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I'm part way into Season 5. Some of the eps really get me, I just finished "Paradise Lost" which at the time I thought was ridiculous, but seeing it now I think about it a lot differently.

And Quark is an excellent character.
post #45 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

It's pretty simple, those who love well written complex characters prefer DS9. Those who love one dimensional characters prefer Voyager.

DS9 was not simple enough for your average viewer. It required attention (like B5 and the new Galactica) because there were story arcs and characters that evolved over a long period of time. Characters on DS9 were definitely not the same after 7 years. On pretty much every other Trek show characters were almost exactly the same as when they started with the exception of the "I want to become more human" characters like Data, the EMH and Seven of Nine.
post #46 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Hell, now y'all are making me want to re-watch all these.
I LOVED the last few seasons but really wasn't into the show the first couple of years, had that TNG-like awkward baby steps syndrome.
A couple of years in the characters were all gelling and by the end it was riveting.
Guess I'll start with s1, disc 1. (must netflix)

post #47 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Well, it did get me curious so I've been netflixing them.
On disc 3 of S1. Very bumpy and unsure but starting to gel. Still fun to see all these familiar characters that I uesd to regularly watch.

post #48 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

By the end of season 1, the show gets really good, and that continues into season 2 and beyond. Staying with the show has its rewards, and goes to heights you can't imagine when you're in season 1.
post #49 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I really think for consistency, S2 is maybe my favorite. I've just finished the series again. But after S2, almost every episode is rewatchable (with a few misses) and, when not dead on story wise, at least "fun". I love the way they take episodes that seem as though they stand alone (Beyond the Stars) and later roped them in to the arc of the series.
post #50 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Hiya Sam!

I did watch regularly but only once. Never on DVD and never in syndication.
So far there have been a few amusing eps. but I'd say they bat 50/50 in the first 1/2 of S1.

post #51 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I always said that about TNG, that onyl 1/2 of the seasons were actually good. DS9, I think that ratio was higher. there were certainly some stinkers, but I think th show was more consistant, with the "fun" shows generally being MUCH better than TNGs.
post #52 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

The "Fun" side episodes in DS9 had a big benefit of meaning something about character development. Hell, having seen S6 again, while the "You are cordially invited.." was a "fun" episode about a wedding experience, it changed characters. I mean, in most other trek shows the characters were all stand alone.

Some of the Ferengi episodes were "fun" but they had meaning for those characters, and the ferengi went from being a weird stereotype in TNG to a pretty well flushed out culture.

That's what I really loved about DS9.. every species had a culture, a way of life, and you dealt with it.
post #53 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Speaking of fun moments, I loved finding out what the Klingon divorce ritual entailed (the one with Quark). It seemed so perfectly and characteristically Klingon that I was literally laughing out loud when I first saw it.
post #54 of 226
Thread Starter 

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Hell, I liked the Bajoran ritual of breakup (Leta/Julian)
post #55 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Well, I'm exactly 1/2 way through.
Very hit and miss. No great eps, some good ones but my hell, that ferengi epsiode where Quark supposedly became the Ferengi's version of the "Grand poobah" was about the worst hour of TV I've ever sat through. Just horrifically bad even though I love Principal Snyder, errr... Quark.

post #56 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Well, "The Nagus" episode was the first of the comic relief Ferengi episodes, and it's not the best of them. The story of the Nagus and the Ferengi will continue through the 7th season and it will get interesting (IMO). Of course, it doesn't have the dramatic impact of the Federation, Bajor, or Cardassian storylines, but it's intended as an alternative to those. Wallace Shawn is great as the Nagus, and in later installments, you'll meet Quark and Rom's mother, who's a character in her own right.
post #57 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Yea Nagus is the worst of the bunch(but its far from terrible IMHO).

They get better.
post #58 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I'm in the third season now. I crack up when Wallace Shawn says anything in this show so I like all those episodes.

The one episode I skipped was Melora because the whole episode annoys me. A self-righteous b***h who refuses to work as a team with anyone should not have gotten through Starfleet Academy, imo. Although they passed Bashir despite his complete lack of any zero-g training so I guess the academies standards aren't as high as TNG led me to believe.
post #59 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Well, I thought Nagus was terrible. Just bad writing and bad scenery chewing.
But I know the show gets ALOT better. disc 4 came today.

post #60 of 226

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Roberts
The one episode I skipped was Melora because the whole episode annoys me. A self-righteous b***h who refuses to work as a team with anyone should not have gotten through Starfleet Academy, imo. Although they passed Bashir despite his complete lack of any zero-g training so I guess the academies standards aren't as high as TNG led me to believe.

I think you should watch it again. Melora was always having to fight for independence and not be regarded as handicapped, which she technically wasn't, but was treated that way because of the zero gravity world she came from which forced her into a wheelchair and body brace. I don't know where your getting the idea of her being arrogant because of the reason you stated.
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