Deep Space Nine: For the Fans - Page 7

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I have TOS and TAS on DVD, and have been through them (in some cases more than once). I'm an original series fan -- discovered the show when I was about 8. Looking forward to the next movie very much. I followed TOS to the big screen in Dec. '79, and through the 80s, watched TNG and DS9 without fail.

I watched Enterprise when it was on, but felt that the first three seasons were missed opportunities, but absolutely loved the fourth season (which I have on DVD). I'd put Enterprise's fourth season up against the best years of TNG or DS9.

I watched Voyager when it was on TV. I just didn't like it, but stuck with it for 7 years, hoping it would get better. I thought the cast was good and the show had a lot of production value, but the writing was, IMO, so bad that it killed the show for me. I won't buy the DVDs, or even rent them. Voyager, IMO, is the nadir of 40+ years of Star Trek (which is a shame, because I think the concept could have been good, and I like folks like Mulgrew, Russ, Ryan, et. al.). My dislike of the show and the disappointment I felt in the first three years of Enterprise are largely, I think, attributable to writers and producers Brannon Braga and Rick Berman (I know, I know, beating a dead horse; but there's a reason so many fans dislike their work).

Give me writers like Gene Coon, DC Fontana, Michael Piller, Peter Allan Fields, Ronald D Moore, Rene Echevarria, Ira Steven Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Manny Coto, the Reeves-Stevenses and so on. DS9 had the best stable of writers on any of the series, and the show was consistently good, more so than any other of the franchise.

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

I started watching Voyager the night it premiered and stuck with it for a while. I actually liked it, but I really was not one to watch series television every week, so I drifted away from it. When it started playing in reruns on a local channel, I watched it from beginning to near the end (it was still in production at the time, so I was getting caught up), and I did like it. In fact, it was the first Trek season set announced by Paramount, and I was excited to hear it was coming. As it turned out, plans changed, and TNG and then DS9 came out first. By the time I had purchased all of those, I didn't bother with Voyager anymore. Part of it was not wanting to spend the money, but another part was knowing I would be let down after finishing DS9. I think I will eventually get it, but I'll probably wait and see what Paramount does with Trek spinoffs on Blu-Ray. I know the quality can't get much better, since it was all on video to begin with, but it still seems to make more sense to get it in the latest format with fewer discs. I don't even have a Blu-Ray player yet, so I'm just taking a wait-and-see for now. That might change if the price of the current sets drops some more. I understand they're about $30 cheaper now already. If they drop far enough, I'll consider the SD discs.

I'm different on Enterprise in that I actually liked the first three seasons and have little use for the fourth. I don't know that I'd own the series.

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

Sam,

Thanks. Those are interesting comments, and they are shared by a number of Trek fans. I tend to like all of Trek, even with the various shortcomings one can find in [insert whichever series you wish]. I will be getting the remaining seasons of VOY as I am able to (the U.K. sets for reasons I've stated previously).

I have a couple of seasons on DVD, and I own the entire series on VHS. I liked all four seasons (of course, some episodes better than others).

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Last night was Emperor's Cloak. I'm not a huge fan of the mirror episodes--it's a lot to swallow that the same characters would be in the same place even under the mirror conditions--so I was expecting to not like it. It was better than I thought, though still not a total favorite. Merging it with a Ferengi episode was pretty inspired and made it better than it might have been. And, I think I find Lezri sexier than Ezri because of her confidence.

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Changing Face of Evil. Things have really gotten interesting since they went back to the war. Damar, Damar, Damar. I'd forgotten all about his turn. It was believably executed. I think they've been building up to it since last season. It's kind of like Darth looking from Luke to the Emperor over and over before making up his mind, but over several episodes.

What TNG episode was it where the Enterprise encountered the Breen? The stage I'm at in DS9 makes me want to watch that one again. I was thinking I might watch TNG from the beginning as soon as I'm done, but it's so stale after DS9. Still, that's what? $700+ I'll never see again? Might as well make use of the discs.

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I don't know. But we hear about them in The Loss, Hero Worship, and in Interface (TNG).

This link may have additional info. which may be useful.

Breen@Everything2.com

Re: Deep Space Nine: For the Fans

We never saw the Breen in TNG. Their first appearance was in DS9's fourth season (Indiscretion). The Breen were mentioned in TNG, but we didn't see them until DS9. One of my favorite moments with a Breen was in the great season 5 two-parter "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" - the famous "never turn your back on a Breen" moment.

We watched It's Only a Paper Moon last night, which is a really good episode. How refreshing to see a whole show dedicated to secondary characters like Nog and Vic (reminded me of TNG's Lower Decks in a way, although we never really knew any of those characters before that show).

I say go ahead and watch TNG again. It was a great show, even if it didn't have the complexity and depth of DS9.

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I was thinking of Hero Worship. The Enterprise investigates a ship that is adrift, and the Breen are suspected of being the ones to disable it. If I remember right, the crew was on edge when they thought it might be the Breen.

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Greg S H said:

While I agree that TNG is not as consistently as good a series as DS9 it does have its moments.

In particular, seasons 3-6 were pretty darn good overall. And about half of season 7 still holds up pretty well. The first two seasons, though, only offer about 8 outstanding episodes out of the 48 that were produced. That was a shame; but without that foundation we wouldn't have gotten any more Star Trek at all (not even DS9).

When you re-visit TNG just view the eight great and/or essential eps from the first two seasons ("Encounter at Farpoint", "Datalore", "Skin of Evil", "Conspiracy", "A Matter of Honor", "The Measure of a Man", "Q Who?", and "The Emissary"); and then move on to Season Three!

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I love DS9 but, unfortunately, I got rid of all seven DVD sets to help pay for HD DVDs and BDs when I got my High Def players a few years ago. I so regret that move now because on quite a few occasions I have wanted to re-watch the series. I don't have the spare money to rebuy the series at this point but, maybe some day I will (maybe when the Blu-Ray version comes out).

Does DS9 air in syndication anywhere still? I know Spike TV use to play it at something like 3 am. I always hated that because they would play 2 TNG and 2 VOY episodes a day in the afternoon but only 1 DS9 and that would be in the wee hours of the morning.

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I've watched TNG all the way through a couple of times, so I do like it. There are just certain shows that I like, but the *idea* of watching them is not always appealing. Anyone else like that? I'll sometimes say, "Man, I don't feel like watching Sanford and Son," but if I sit down and watch it, I enjoy it. TNG is kind of like that for me.

Actually, I kind of feel like watching Voyager right now. I haven't seen it since it ended. But, I don't own the discs, and I don't want to spend the money right now. Actually, Amazon's complete packaging of the series isn't too bad, but I'd like to see what Paramount is going to do about Trek on Blu-Ray. I'd hate to buy now and find out they're going to do something cool in that format.

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Ahh Voyager. Three seasons of a great show followed by four more seasons that made washing dishes look more appealing.

I loved those first three seasons of it. Really. I think the Borg and Holodeck episodes that made up most of the remaining seasons just ruined it for me completely. I just watched it to see how the rest would play out but was such a chore to do. Like washing dishes: You don't want to do it, but it's got to be done so you suck it up and get through it. Seasons four through seven felt like that.

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Finished Dogs of War, so the next one is it. It's always bittersweet to come to the end of a great series. The finale is double-length, right? I don't want to start it before bedtime and find out I'm too tired to enjoy it.

Why does the female shapeshifter look the way she does? Is it just to keep the connection to Odo fresh in the audiences' minds? They explained that Laas had the same difficulties that Odo did with mimicking humanoid faces, but I seem to remember that Odo's face caused the female a bit of frustration that he hadn't learned better away from the Link. I figure it's mainly to help the audience, but it could also be seen as the deep affection she feels for Odo that she takes on his appearance.

It's also a bit strange that they basically dropped the shapeshifting abilities of the Founders somewhere along the line. It was a huge concern, with the cliffhanger about them already having invaded the Federation, and the thing with Martok and Bashir, but it never seemed to be an issue once the war started. I don't know if this was done so the audience wouldn't ever wonder "is this really our character, or is it a Founder?" or if the practical reason is that with the war on, the Founders were cut off from the ability to use this tactic.

It's also a shame how little Jake was used towards the end. Long stretches without him anywhere. I know he comes back for the last one, though.

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Greg_S_H,

Agreed. Great series that easily could have gone on (storywise) for a few more years. And yes, What You Leave Behind is double length.

Yeah, Salome Jens. I loved her in the TOL (original series) episode Corpus Earthling. I don't know why she looks similar to Odo, but maybe it's just for convenience.

I've wondered this sometimes. I'm also curious why we rarely saw the powers of the shapeshifters (e.g., like Odo's in To the Death). Maybe those sequences were too expensive to shoot?

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I thought the virus they were infected with affected their abilities to shape-shift.

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Good point. I hadn't even thought of that. It would stand to reason, though. But I don't think we saw it too often before they were infected either. I can't think of more than three or four times in the first five or six seasons. I must be missing some of the times it occurred. (Incidentally, I'm speaking of times that Odo used his abilities as a weapon, not simply shifting himself into a table. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.)

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In Odo's case, shapeshifting accelerates the disease, but he can still do it.

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We watched "Bada Bing, Bada Bang" last night and I was struck by two things: This aired around the same time The Sopranos premiered on HBO, and this was 2 years before Oceans 11 (the George Clooney version) hit theaters. So this episode was way ahead of the curve. A great, great episode that was a lot of fun. My wife was riveted by it (first time she saw it).

I've told her that from here on, it's one long story to the end (with Inter Armin... being the prequel to the 10-part finale). What a way to go out!

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We just watched that one (Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang) last weekend. My wife and kids love the scene where the gang is all dressed up and they're walking down the corridor (past Quark's) just before they go into the holosuite. That's a great shot.

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Yes, great shot. My wife laughed out loud at it. I found myself laughing out loud a few times during the show, even though I've seen it at least 3 or 4 times now.

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Sadly, I finished the series last night. Still the best Trek ending episode we'll probably ever get. This may make some of you mad, but the first half felt like a really good Star Wars movie, with the awesome space battle and the skillful cutting to Bajor and the other stories cooking back home. Maybe I was influenced by Kira in the Breen suit, though.

This episode confirmed one thing: the female shapeshifter *was* stuck in her current shape by the disease.

Forgot to mention this from the previous episode, but Jeffrey Combs is great. Ususally, even under heavy makeup, these guys are easy to recognize. I knew immediately that Laas was Martok, even without paying attention to the credits. Combs is different. His Weyoun and Brunt look and sound nothing alike. That was great.

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Not to mention his Shran. He (Combs) is one of my favorite Trek actors, for sure.

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We finished the seventh season last night with "What You Leave Behind." A great ending to a great, great show. When I first saw the finale back in '99, I thought it was disappointing that the Pah Wraiths storyline was not tied to the Dominion War arc. But now I appreciate the way it was done. The finale had to serve several purposes: it had to end the Dominion War, it had to resolve many of the characters' storylines and it had to tie into the story that began in the pilot episode, and it accomplished all of those. Funny how so many of the characters became prominent members of their respective societies - or even saviors of their people.

Odo, once shunned from the Founders, saved them from extinction. Worf, also shunned from his people, restored honor to the Klingons by killing their corrupt leader and placing Martok in his place. Damar, once a renegade on Dukat's ship, lead his people to overthrow their oppressors, while Garak, once an exile of Cardassia, is left as an instrumental player in its reconstruction. Kira, once an underground freedom fighter, helped her worst enemies achieve the same freedom she sought for her own people. And Sisko saved not only Bajor, but maybe the whole galaxy. It's as if the time spent on or in connection to this place, this gateway to the celestial temple, changed everyone's lives and brought salvation to so many parts of civilization. Coincidence? Religious significance? Or just the intervention of benevolent wormhole aliens?

I was writing a review the other day for season 3 of Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica (see link below) and I mentioned Moore's work on DS9. It occured to me that DS9 is the greatest realization of Gene Roddenberry's universe and showed the potential of his vision. On no other Trek show did so many elements of the Trek universe come together and paint such a broad canvas. Some folks think Roddenberry wouldn't have liked DS9, with its darker tone and depiction of war. I disagree. The humans in DS9 are still Roddenberry's ideal. The show is about what happens when those people and the benevolent society they have built are challenged from without and within.

So... What are our chances to see a DS9 TV movie or miniseries? Does anyone think that if JJ Abrams revitalizes Trek next year we could see a resurgance of interest? Or will Paramount not want to revisit DS9 (and have to pay Rick Berman royalties for his co-creation)?

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TOS and TNG both will get their days instead of DS9, VOY, ENT =P. i wish i hadn't watched the series finale What u leave behind 2 parter before i watched any of the seasons2through7 =P.

during the 1st 3 seasons, i occasionally caught it and it was kind of run of the mill. so i thought that was how it was going to be until the very end and caught the series finale just because. i did the same with VOY, but i was right about VOY but totally wrong with DS9! =*(. now i kinda' have to work backwards.

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I don't think we'll see a continuation of DS9. It seems like it's the least known, least popular Trek with the general public. I've never met anyone who knew anything about it. My friend's wife watches Voyager any time it's on, but I don't know that she's ever seen DS9.

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Which is funny since it's, by far, the series that's held up the best over the years, IMO.

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I recall the writers often felt that no one ever cared, so that's why they got away with telling the stories they did. Less scrutiny from Paramount/Berman, and no network like UPN to monitor every decision made.

It worked out in their favor obviously, but it's sad that it's probably still true: No one really cares.

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It's hard to watch any other Trek after DS9.

I've made peace with no followup as long as they don't ignore it. You know, come out with a new show that pretends the Dominion War never happened or something. It's hard to gauge that since the concurrent series was in another quadrant for the most part, and the following series was a prequel. I don't remember how much the Voyager crew knew about what was going on, because I didn't know what was going on at the time I was watching Voyager.

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Whenever there was an episode that featured Voyager contacting earth, and eventually a semi-regular communication was established by TNG character Barclay, Voyager learned the basics, such as Cardassia joining a 'Gamma Quadrant enemy' (or something to that effect) and obliterating all of the Maquis, but there wasn't active talk about the war or the aftermath aside from a line or two about lives lost.

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well, c'mon TOS is still pretty good writing =D.