Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last! - Page 8

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

As El Cid underwent film restoration around 15 years ago, there were no doubt some good quality 35mm reduction prints created at that time that could well have been used as the basis for this transfer and further digital restoration.

As Warner's have proved over the last few years a good quality 35mm reduction print can still yield superb results from original 8 perf or 65mm materials. In fact as 35mm telecine appears to be better in some areas and is more common, it can be superior.

As "Fall...", hasn't had a film restoration or re-release, there are no good quality 35mm or 70mm prints of recent vintage, the film probably hasn't been printed full stop in 20-30 years. Therefore the only suitable materials would be OCN or interpositives etc created at the time of release or shortly after, unless Miramax have found an archive/collector with a pristine 30-40 yr old 35mm print, which is unlikely.

Time will tell...

M

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I hope this information is false as this was the reason I disliked the laserdisc. Miramax went the cheap route and the results had ugly, muddy and contrasty color. I was hoping that in 2008 Weinstein would have wisely invested in a brand new 35mm interpositive from Technirama originated elements. It is not possible for any low con element to yield a satisfactory HD master like an IP can. Sorry, but I'll pass on this.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Fortunately, Criterion wisely accessed a copy of the four-track original stereo mix for the 5.1 track which has been re-used for this new release. Who knows how the four-track would have played today, if at all.
The original surround track mostly consisted of trumpet fanfares etc. For the 5.1 mix, additional effects were added such as thunder.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Two words: Too expensive.

Weinstein does not own these movies and no other big studio does for that matter. How many large format movies which are very expensive to work on do you know that

A do not belong to a big studio AND
B had a major restoration and / or Hi-Rez master done starting from the OCN ?

I would be surprised if you could name one.

So unless the complete rights to these movies are bought by Warner or Fox or another major studio willing to spend hundreds of thousands in preserving them I do not see anybody going back to the OCN for the 4 Bronston movies that are for now with Weinstein, at least in the US.

As it is an HD master for El Cid is more than I would have thought to be possible but going back to the OCN is something I cannot see happening with the current owner situation.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Out of the four Bronston releases issued on laserdisc, except for El-Cid, Empire, Peking, and Circus all looked like they came from IP's and looked great. El-Cid was the only title of the four released by Miramax. If the elements for the other three were new and were I.P's who paid the bill?

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

The restoration work that resulted in a 1993 re-release was not done by going back to the OCN, it used standard 35mm elements.


70mm scanning equipment does 8k now and would certainly yield superior results for movies like Fall of the Roman Empire. El Cid has been shot in horizontal 35mm and could be scanned the same way as standard 35mm material if a new Super Technirama IP was done, on a 4k scanner like the one used for Blade Runner this would yield a 6k by 4k scan - certainly good enough for a Blu-Ray release.


There is a Digibeta master that was created from some kind of separates or Technicolor elements and I hope they won't use it but on the other hand I don't know what else they could use.
Fall is IMO among the most stuning looking epics of them all and it deserves better than the color fringing that plagues all its current releases.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I'm confused, the whole purpose of the 1993 restoration by Scorsese's film foundation was that the Negative was in really bad shape, are you saying they didn't create a new 8 perf 35mm/65mm dupe neg at that time following the preservational work? If so what did they create?


I'm aware of what equipment is available, it just seem's for whatever reason that the studio's haven't used it to date, for example the new 65mm transfer of ben-hur is less-sharp than the 35mm of a few years before as it used an older 65mm telecine machine.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I don't know the exact history of the so-called 'restoration', but a low-con was used for the telecine session and that is why the transfer turned out that way.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

What was used for the transfer of Mutiny on the Bounty, The Greatest Story Ever Told and Battle of the Bulge? They were filmed in Ultra Panavision and have a 2.76:1 aspect ratio on DVD.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

As far as i'm aware both MoB & BoB were transferred from brand new 35mm interpositives, specially created from 65mm materials, to ensure optimal image quality and full aspect ratio. WB has done this on most of there recent 65mm film's released on dvd including Grand Prix and possibly 2001 too.

GSET was transferred from 65mm a few years ago using the older type of 65mm telecine I mentioned above.

To the best of my knowledge the only 65mm transfer to date to use the newer 65mm telecines (that are of equal quality to the average hi-def 35mm equivalent) is the special effects portions of blade runner, that were scanned in at 8K then downconverted to produce the new 35mm final cut negative.

Oliver K hasn't stated his source so we have only his word that EL Cid is from a 35mm low-con, which may or may not be accurate. If it is true it's likely exactly the same print that Criterion used, but this time transferred in hi-def with additional digital clean-up and colour-correction.

M

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

In regard to the aspect ratio question, I - and probably DVD Savant and others - tend to refer to anything that's about that shape 2.35:1 unless I have specific information otherwise. If the DVD case says 2.20:1 - or whatever - then I'll list it that way. Otherwise I call it 2.35:1 because I have no way of knowing the actual intended - even getting out a tape measure isn't great because it's not exact due to TV variations.

So in this case, 2.35:1 may be an approximation, not an exact measurement...

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Up until this release of El Cid everything came off Digibeta masters that exist for all these movies. Sources that I tend to believe told me they were done from Technicolor prints and the misalignment issues apparent in the DVD's released in Europe and Japan that I have witnessed of all 4 movies let this appear as a very possible explanation together with the fact that all 4 have overblown contrast and strange colors.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Everything they created was in the standard 35mm format and as far as I know they made it from existing prints but I could be wrong.
To the best of my knowledge there was no preservational work done on the OCN during the course fo this restoration, from the numbers tossed around the budget was very small by film restoration standards.

In the end it is important that they did not go back to the OCN.
Robert A. Harris also confirmed that there are no elements created for El Cid.

Regarding the intent: I think it was more the intent to preserve El Cid as a movie that could be witnessed theatrically for future generations, obviously it was deemed sufficient that they could only watch it in standard 35mm




Fotokem is doing work now in 8k and in the past has done 4k scans of Cleopatra, South Pacific, The King and I and Carousel. For the first two the scan was done from a 65mm IP. Fotokem also did 70mm prints for the first two and they look VERY nice



The 1080i TV version based on the new master of Ben Hur is much better than the DVD. It is also much better than the older DVD-version, there is a splitscreen in this thread where you can see this. The reason the movie is softer than the earlier version on DVD is not the master.
Still you are right that a 65mm telecine is not the way to go and probably inferior than a 4k scan from a 35mm IP.

Regarding the use of a standard telecine with 65mm: People that work at companies like Fotokem will tell you that it is much cheaper than high-rez scans and that is why many studios use it. Still a bit shocking to hear that Warner even used it on Ben Hur which is probably their second biggest 70mm title.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I am not happy to hear this but as the film elements used to create the new master were already suboptimal I think this is pretty much what we could expect but at least they did a new HD master which is more than I expected. So we have better detail especially for the HD version that is hopefully coming and of course there is the better 5.1 sound.

And thanks for your detailed review - makes the wait for my Box a little easier

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

DVDBeaver has posted a comparison review:

El Cid Charlton Heston Sophie Loren

I guess most buyers will be very happy

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

The home video distribution rights for these films have bounced around between so many companies that one single company can't seem to justify restoring the OCN. Which is very sad really, considering that the OCN will provide the best image quality for said home video releases, and enable the best quality theatrical releases if that ever happens.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

The DVD measures at 2.35:1, so I think that confirms it is from 4 perf, 35mm, or the DVD producers really didn't know what they were doing!

The copyright notice contains an addendum "Renewed 1993 R.C. Films Corp." which suggests this DVD is taken from that restoration.


Talk about a stunning opening shot!

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Very true, at the moment I know of at least 6 companies that have dabbled with the Bronston movies in the last 3 or 4 years, among them Warner, Universal and now Weinstein but there are still private parties and smaller companies involved, too.



A small correction and at the same time an interesting tidbit in itself:

It is P.C. which is an abbreviation for "preferred creditors" who took
over the remaining assets from Bronston's companies.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Any idea where "Prefered Creditors" is based? U.S.? Spain?

At the very least I hope the OCN is properly stored along with the 4 perf. preservation negative.

Now that you ahve pointed out that I thought the R was a P, I am starting to think the date says 1989, not 1993!

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Whether or not the new El Cid is better than the old one, this old one, or that old one, I must confess to being in a right Gordon Brown about it - which, for our American readers, means a conventional dither. I will, though, place an order herewith and am holding myself in readiness for a peak at the extras which strike me as being worth the price of admission . . .

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I'd go for the Limited Edition if you are getting it primarily for extras. The replica souvenir booklet is a very nice extra, I hope they do the same for Fall of the Roman Empire, and 55 Days in Peking.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

I second that - the limited Edition for me was worth it.


I would not think that this is important as the preferred creditors are probably scattered around the globe anyway. There is however a company based in the UK that seems to handle the distribution rights for all territories.



Last I heard it was stored somewhere together with Fall and probably the other two movies of this cycle. So it seems like the OCN's did survive the demise of Samuel Bronston productions but the way they are stored and the shape they are in is not really known.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Dunno if this reinforces your decision but:

I just got the limited edition and it is definitely the best version available on DVD although to me it looks like it is from the same master as the other DVD's I own of the movie. There are definitely improvements with regard to contrast, colors and edge enhancement with this Edition so if you want EL Cid this is there best version of it available, but don't expect it to look like King of Kings.

So I hope somebody catches the digital HD screening of the movie that is scheduled for the 29th of this month in Washington and probably in Hollywood to shed a little light on similarities or dissimilarities to the DVD.
Of course the level of detail should be vastly superior but what about the colors ?

On to the extras: There is a lot of interesting stuff for people who are interested in Mann, Bronston and Rosza - I was very impressed by the wealth of information and for me the extras and additonal stuff coming with the limited edition were worth the price of the box even if there wouldn't be a movie in it

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Has King of Kings been broadcast in HD?

Surely Warner should line that up for a blu-ray release this year!

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

There was an HDnet airing. It looked almost like the (very good) DVD. So if this is indicative of the quality of the master that Warner has they will have to have do another one.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Okay, don't mean to break the current conversation, but does anyone have an idea as to when 'Circus World' is coming out? I would certainly like to purchase the other Bronston films that are being released, but 'Circus World' is the one I'm really interested in obtaining. I have the very acceptable widescreen release from France, but would like to upgrade in Region 1, just for all the extras I'm anticipating...

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

Expect Circus World to be the last release of the 4, either alone or together with 55 days at the same time. The extras of El Cid are indeed great, most are not specific to the movie though so I would expect less extras for Circus World.

Re: Bronston epics and Land of the Pharaohs coming at last!

If it is going to be 3 month gaps, then it will be 55 Days in Peking in July, and Circus World in October.

Just a guess of course...