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Canon SD600?

post #1 of 86
11/24/06 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Any reason I should not pull the trigger on this thing for $200? (that's it for budget!)

I have a trip coming up, and need a camera pronto. I've used my friends SD110 and love that little thing. I am partial to Canon.

I have been meaning to get into photography for a long time, but now isn't the time for it - just need a reliable device I can carry everywhere. And budget won't allow anything fancy anyway.

Will I get better pictures from the A series (A610/20/30) in the same price range?


EDIT: Grrr neverind, the damn thing is just too small, I want more features grrr...

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H
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post #2 of 86
11/24/06 at 10:00pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

Well it's been a weird day. Went to the store, handled the thing for a couple of minutes and decided it wasn't for me. Some of the A series can still fit comfortably in my pockets -- the A540 was exactly the same size as my wallet witch is always full of junk (never enough $$$ though) -- so I decided to go with one of those. And I decided I might a well get something that will serve as a stepping stone to the good stuff (DSLR), or at the very least allow me to evaluate my level of interest in this -- do I just want the kewl toys, or am I genuinely interested in photography as a hobby?

The A530/40 was the budget recommendation ($125-$150) from a few websites, but I couldn't get past the lag times between shots, especially with flash (6secs?!).

The A610/20/30/40 were fine feature-wise, but just too bulky.

So I ended up settling on a A710 ($300). Right combo of size and features.

But while browsing around, I found out about the new Nikon D40, MSRP for the kit is $599. Imagine the street price in 6 months .

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H
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post #3 of 86
11/25/06 at 3:15am

Re: Canon SD600?

Congrats on the new camera. At <=$300, I would've probably gone for a Fuji F30 though, if I were you. But the Canon should be a fine choice also although it won't do nearly as well as the F30 in low light (typical indoors) situations.

If you're considering the Nikon D40, you should take note that its autofocus only works w/ AFS type lenses. If you wish to use older style non-AFS lenses, you'll have to focus manually or go w/ a different model like the D50. AFS lenses are the kind that focus nearly instantaneously and silently w/ their own built-in motors. A small number of 3rd party lenses also offer this (eg. Sigma's HSM), but not many so far. And Nikon doesn't have too many fixed focal length AFS prime lenses yet -- and all of them are AFS telephotos that cost >$800 so far.

Happy shooting!

_Man_
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post #4 of 86
11/25/06 at 6:48am
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

I checked out the F30, here are the concluding paragraphs of DPreview:

Quote:
So, whilst it would be unfair to label the F30 a 'one trick pony' (no matter how good that trick is), it is fair to say that it really shines in low light, whereas in daylight - especially bright daylight - it is merely competent. If I'm being brutally honest this sensor deserves a better camera - or at least one with some control over things like contrast, sharpness and saturation. The good news is that the recent announcement of the S6500fd certainly suggests that Fuji isn't going to abandon this sensor for a while yet.

To sum up, the F30 is far and away the best low light compact camera on the market today, bar none. It's the perfect 'social' camera for the DSLR owner who doesn't want to lug all his or her gear to parties, and it is - in expert hands - capable of superb results in any light. I would even go as far as to suggest - funds permitting - getting one for low light work even if you already own a camera you use for daylight shooting... So then, Highly Recommended unless you rarely shoot indoors or at night.

Definitely interesting, but I would probably have opted for the Canon anyway, as it just so happens that the vast majority of the shots in this trip will be in (very) bright daylight.

Arrgh, thanks for the info on the D40, silly question - how important is autofocus anyway?

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H
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post #5 of 86
11/25/06 at 7:59am

Re: Canon SD600?

Great choice of a camera, and at $300, great price too. One of the things I like best in this model is image stabilization (hence the "IS" in the model number), which reduces blur, especially but not only in low light situations. Here are a couple of reviews, here and here. I almost always shoot in autofocus mode. AF has come a long way since the days of film cameras, and now it's quick and precise, and you can choose between different AF modes to tweak things to your preference.

I have a 2-year old Canon A series camera, and it works great, but I am thinking about going small and getting a sub-compact model, but with image stabilization, so I've been seriously weighing the SD700 and SD800. Decision decision decision...
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post #6 of 86
11/26/06 at 6:39am

Re: Canon SD600?

Quote:
I've been seriously weighing the SD700 and SD800. Decision decision decision...
I've been looking at the SD800, too, for my wife and as a complement to my Canon 350D DSLR. I like the wider angle lens on the SD800 over the SD700 -- something pretty rare in a digital point & shoot.

Man-Fai makes some excellent points on the Nikon D40. The features on that new model seem too constrained for a DLSR. If you like the Nikon system, the D50 or D70 would be better choices, IMO. If you are looking for a good price point, the Canon 350D is being marked down, too, now that the 400D has been introduced (if you like the Canon system).
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post #7 of 86
11/26/06 at 7:50am

Re: Canon SD600?

But the SD700 has better telephoto and is about $50 cheaper. If they were priced the same, that would be easy
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post #8 of 86
11/26/06 at 6:11pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Personally, I'd rather have the extra width and give up a little on the telephoto end. Most point & shoots only go to about 35mm on the wide side, which is not wide enough for me for some interior shots, where we'd be most likely to use a point & shoot. The SD800 is the equivalent of 28mm on the wide end, which is about the same as the 17-55mm f/2.8 lens I use on my DSLR (27-88mm 35mm equivalent).
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post #9 of 86
11/27/06 at 10:19pm

Re: Canon SD600?

I agree. For what I do, 28mm gives greater advantages than 135mm. It's just that I don't have a digital SLR, so I have to think hard about giving up too much on the telephoto end. But I guess, since it's digital, I can always crop afterwards I have almost made up my mind to get the 800, just waiting to find the best deal.

There is an excellent comparison between the SD700 and SD800 here. Check the link on image stabilization and the focal length comparison.

Back to the original topic, how are you liking your A710, Holadem?
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post #10 of 86
11/27/06 at 10:35pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Yeah, for a good entry level DSLR, I would suggest going w/ either the Nikon D50 or the Canon 350D/XT or maybe one of the comparably priced Pentax, if you're a little more adventurous (and love their ergonomics, feature set and lineup of fixed focal length primes). There really isn't much reason to go for the D40 -- its street price probably won't even be noticeably lower than the D50 for a while, if you shop online. I suppose the D40 might be a decent way to start out after a steep discount -- and to keep as a vacation cam (due to its small size) if/when you eventually upgrade.

Hien,

If you get the SD800, you probably can still add a teleconverter to get a longer zoom when you need it, no? That might be one way to go. And in terms of lugging (and spending $ on) a lens converter, if there's an option, usually a teleconverter is smaller (and cheaper) than a wide converter in case you're thinking to go the other way w/ the SD700.

_Man_
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post #11 of 86
11/27/06 at 11:05pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Thanks, Man, for the suggestion. I'll have to look into that. I didn't know they make teleconverters for a sub-compact point-and-shoot. I didn't see a screw thread so I assumed that there were no lens accessories.
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post #12 of 86
11/28/06 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HienN
Back to the original topic, how are you liking your A710, Holadem?
Just got it a few minutes ago, looks pretty nifty .

Um... is the manual supposed to be just a bunch sheets (4x5) held together with two staples? The camera itself looks brand new (complete with the plastic film on the LCD) so maybe I am being paranoid. The outfit is www.thecamerabox.com, they appear to be in NYC (I know I know...), they have excellent ratings on resellerratings.com., the price was right and shipping was fast (I ordered it on Friday, got here on Tuesday). Nothing appears to be missing from the box as far as I can see.

Can't tell you guys much about the camera, sorry, it's my first so I have little to compare it to. I have used my friends SD110 pretty often for 2 years, and another's Casio EXLIM as well, but both are so basic that they don't really count as far as experience goes.

Now my question: Are the 2 weeks left before my trip enough for a crash course in photography, or should I simply trust my camera's auto mode for the 3.5 weeks I will be away? Note that I most likely won't be able to download the pix to a PC and get some feedback out there... and I understand that LCDs no matter how large, aren't a whole lotta help in this matter.

I know the basics of exposure and the relationships between aperture, shutter, ISO, and perhaps DOF. I realize that you wouldn't know how fast I can learn in 2 weeks, but please do take a stab at the question.

Leave the damn thing on auto?

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H
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post #13 of 86
11/28/06 at 8:23am

Re: Canon SD600?

If you do not feel you have time to learn the intricacies of your camera, you may want to at least try some of the "scene" modes like landscape and portrait along with auto. I used those modes quite a bit on my old Powershot G3.

DOF is much different on a point & shoot than a DSLR due to its smaller sensor. So, trying to blur the background on a portrait shot can be difficult with a p&s, even with the lens wide open -- you'll probably need to be near maximum focal length and wide open to achieve decent blur. However, they can provide great DOF for landscape shots.
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post #14 of 86
11/28/06 at 1:32pm

Re: Canon SD600?

If you already know the few basics regarding exposure, probably the next thing you will want to learn that's specific to digital is how to make good use of the histogram to either get the best exposure for postprocessing purposes or simply good, well-balanced exposure for the final results, particularly for scenics. Another thing of interest might be learning to use slow sync flash, if you don't know already. If you know the few basics, I would think 2 weeks should be enough time for you to get acquainted w/ the camera so as not to need to rely on the various auto/scene modes.

And as Scott says, there's not a whole lot you can do for (shallow) DoF w/ these digicams w/ tiny sensors (and lenses). Generally, if you shoot at f/5 or smaller aperture, the DoF will be quite large even at the tele end unless you're shooting close-ups/macros. I used to make use of the large DoF (and minimal manual focus feature) on my Canon G3 to wait for timed shots of the kids and such since AF was so slow -- and even now, digicam AF still really isn't fast enough. OTOH, w/ the DSLR, I pretty much have to rely on the fast AF since DoF is shallow.

_Man_
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post #15 of 86
11/28/06 at 2:39pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

Geez man, thanks for raining on my parade

Seriously, it does seem to my novice eyes like shallow DOF is where the fun is. But for the purposes of this trip, I can live without that. espcially since I took a couple of shots on Auto and I am just floored by the quality of this thing, at least compared to the aforementioned compacts! Granted it was in ideal conditions (diffuse office light) but still.

I doubt I will be going fully manual anytime soon, but at least I can play with Program, Tv, Av and simply do some bracketting when in doubt. This is gonna be fun .

How does sensor size relate to DoF?

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H
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post #16 of 86
11/28/06 at 2:58pm

Re: Canon SD600?

One other thing about choosing a good aperture size to use. Generally, you'll probably want to stay somewhere around f/5 to f/5.6 for best optical performance on these digicams (unless you have one w/ a brighter lens like f/2 wide open). That's usually where the sweet spot is for most of them. Of course, this assumes that you have enough light and want the very large DoF that you'll get too, especially at or near full wideangle where the DoF will likely be near infinity. If you stop down beyond say f/6.4 or so, you might start to hit the diffraction limit and lose some sharpness. That's something to note when considering the idea of stopping down to increase DoF.

Here's a good DoF calculator for you to check out:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

If you use a Palm device, they also have a version for that. OR you can try one of their customizable quick reference charts. But generally, w/ the large DoF of these digicams, it's pretty easy to guesstimate for most shots once you get a good feel for how the DoF formula works.

_Man_
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post #17 of 86
11/28/06 at 10:08pm

Re: Canon SD600?

I am surprised that the manual is a bunch of sheets held together with 2 staples. There should be 2 booklets actually, one basic user guide and one advanced. You can download and see them here.

Although you are short on time, with a new camera, I'd suggest that you take an hour or so to put the camera through its paces. Check out all the functions, especially things that involve mechanical movements like zoom, video and timer, etc. Go through the entire menu if you can.

And don't let the pros like Scott and Man take all the joy out of photography It's perfectly OK to leave the thing on Auto (or select from the different auto modes like portrait, landscape, or sports, etc, if you feel adventurous). You can advance to DoF after you come back from vacation.
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post #18 of 86
11/29/06 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

I've started experimenting quite a bit, I really like it so far, I have already overriden the camera's suggestions on a quite a few occasions with better results.

The biggest problem right now is the LCD, it's large, but some of the blurry mess I made looked just fine there until I saw them on the computer.

But I wish the lens would open wider than f/2.8, to get those portait shots with that nice background blur. But then again, I saw similar shots made with an A610-40 (don't remember which one) on Pbase, tack sharp bird with really good background blur and am still scratching my head as to how they managed that since the lenses are very similar? Aperture listed was f2.8.

What am I missing?

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H
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post #19 of 86
11/29/06 at 12:01pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Quote:
But I wish the lens would open wider than f/2.8, to get those portait shots with that nice background blur. But then again, I saw similar shots made with an A610-40 (don't remember which one) on Pbase, tack sharp bird with really good background blur and am still scratching my head as to how they managed that since the lenses are very similar? Aperture listed was f2.8.

What am I missing?

Focal length and distance, maybe? Play with the depth of field calculator that Man listed above. Remember DoF decreases as you (1) widen the aperature, (2) decrease the distance to the subject, or (3) increase the focal length of the lens.

It will also decrease as your camera's sensor size increases, but you cannot increase that without changing cameras.
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post #20 of 86
11/29/06 at 12:45pm

Re: Canon SD600?

For background blur itself, it'll also depend on how far the background is relative to the focus/subject distance. But if it's a non-SLR digicam shot of a bird w/ good background blur using medium tele range, then I'd wonder how the person even got close enough for a good shot or whether some postprocess editing was done to add the blur.

A link to such a photo might help.

BTW, didn't mean to spoil the fun w/ all the technical talk.

_Man_
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post #21 of 86
11/29/06 at 2:24pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

The technical talk is fun.

One more reason winter sucks: Gotta wait till the weekend to really put this thing through it's paces outdoors, as the only daylight I see nowadays is during my morning commute.

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H
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post #22 of 86
11/29/06 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

Here are some of the pix I mentioned earlier, taken with an A640:

http://www.pbase.com/image/67784323
http://www.pbase.com/image/68441938
http://www.pbase.com/neilfif11/image/67784331

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H
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post #23 of 86
11/29/06 at 3:54pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Quote:
But if it's a non-SLR digicam shot of a bird w/ good background blur using medium tele range, then I'd wonder how the person even got close enough for a good shot

I was wondering the same thing myself, Man. Anyway, you may have hit on it regarding the distance from the subject to the background by looking at the photos in Holadem's links. It looks like there may be a lot of separation there, although it's impossible to tell for certain.
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post #24 of 86
11/29/06 at 11:10pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Call me a skeptic, but I looked through a bunch of shots at that pbase account, and I'm inclined to think most of the background blur came from PP editing blur, not from the original in-camera shots themselves. Most of the blur is just too smooth to be possible w/ such a digicam, and almost all of them (that I checked) present relatively easy compositions to apply PP editing blur to the background. Even a DSLR w/ a big, fast, long lens would have a hard time yielding the kind of blur shown in many of those shots unless shooting macro close-ups, and he has so very many of them.

Having said all that, that doesn't mean I feel there's anything wrong w/ applying some PP editing blur to the background (nor whatever color/contrast/sharpness adjustments he probably also applied to at least some of them). But people browsing photos on the web should understand that many photos have been edited to varying degrees before being displayed -- in fact, many are actually shot w/ the intention to be postprocessed in certain ways. It's all part of photography though most people don't realize this.

_Man_
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post #25 of 86
11/30/06 at 10:49pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Review of the SD800 just posted on steves-digicams.com.

"A little pocket rocket!" Resistance is futile
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post #26 of 86
12/3/06 at 10:34am

Re: Canon SD600?

I somehow missed this David Pogue article. More Canon SD800 candy. Not just image stabilization. Now with face recognition

Quote:
Canon has a full array of cameras, camcorders and printers on display. But the one that blew me away was a new slim, shirt-pocket model called the SD800 IS. (The IS stands for image-stabilized, meaning fewer blurry shots.)

I decided to try a couple of sample shots. I aimed at two people across the booth from me–and each person’s face was outlined with a white square. Incredibly, the white squares MOVED on the screen as the people did–this camera was actually tracking their faces! (Canon says that it can track up to nine faces in a single scene.)

The main idea behind this face-recognition software is exposure calculations: If you’re taking photos of people (hey–it could happen), you want the faces to be properly exposed, no matter how light or dark the surroundings.

This feature works particularly well with the flash. I took a flash photo of a guy about three feet away–a setup that, on most cameras, would bleach his face to nuclear white. But on the 800, the flash throttled itself back so much, you could barely tell that it was on. His face was perfectly exposed.

The face-recognition feature is offered by the new Digic 3 chip, which Canon will be rolling out across its camera line. The other advantage of this processor: it’s fast. So fast, in fact, that the 800 offers the least shutter lag of any compact camera I’ve tested. I tried pointing it at something and suddenly mashing the shutter button without prefocusing. Boom–the picture was snapped, sharply in focus (as long as no flash was involved). This is big news.
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post #27 of 86
12/4/06 at 6:09am

Re: Canon SD600?

Damn! Circuit City had an online deal a couple of days ago on the SD800 that I missed. The camera + 1GB memory card for $320.
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post #28 of 86
12/4/06 at 8:14am
Thread Starter 

Re: Canon SD600?

Face recog? Damn. Certainly looks like P&S heaven!

And gee, here I was all proud of myself for learning to take decent flashless pictures... and now the unwashed masses will be able to turn this delicate but rewarding exercise into a toughless one button act with this gizmo? .

Now I know what it feels like to be John Rice.

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H
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post #29 of 86
12/4/06 at 4:36pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Nah, I'm sure the face-recognition features is not fool-proof. Also, onboard flash, especially on a tiny cam, will never be as good as external flash on a more sophisticated camera. And the Canon approach on these tiny cams still won't yield natural looking photos that look evenly lit, eg. the background will still be too dark to look natural in low light situations.

If face recognition is desired, I'd probably go for the Fuji F30fd instead.
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post #30 of 86
12/4/06 at 10:50pm

Re: Canon SD600?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
If face recognition is desired, I'd probably go for the Fuji F30fd instead.

I think you meant the Fuji F31fd. Its product description page has a nice illustration of the value of face recognition. Not at all a gimmick as I first thought.

I would argue though that the F31 is a different camera than the SD800. One is a compact, and the other is a slim and light subcompact. What's nice about the SD800 is there are so many features and capabilities crammed into such a tiny thing. And it has 28 mm wide angle, pretty unusual for a subcompact.

Face recognition! Amazing. I can now do portraits. No more boring sunsets
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