"Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc? - Page 3

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Also, the faces in the 2005 are the ones that look distorted to me. Stretched vertically.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Oh, I stated previously the credits are a mess on the 2005 transfer. But really... Would the freeze-framed, re-created credits (yet superior) of the 1999 version sway me to prefer that version for the ENTIRE film? NO.

I wonder if people trahsed this release so badly based mainly on the opening credits. Boy, that's sad.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Isn't it odd that the color balance looks the same on the 2005 CinemaScope and Todd-AO transfers, with the 1999 Todd-AO looking completely different? And it is supposed to have the best, most accurate color - certainly the best transfer of the Todd-AO version? If the pics don't show up the problems, I don't know what else to do. The 1999 DVD is not superior to the 2005 DVD in any way, especially when switching back and forth between the two on my admittedly minor system (32" HDTV). If I had a larger screen, I bet I'd still prefer the softer 2005 transfer over the edgy, ultra-high contrast, over saturated, stair-stepping, off-color attributes of the 1999 DVD.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Chuck, no.

I don't like the 2005 release because it looks blurry and bad. And your great screen caps have not convinced me otherwise. The 1999 version is terrible too, though I still think it's better than the newer release.

And I think the Cinemascope version is better than both, sharper, better color, and the better movie anyway.

I saw the Todd-AO version in a great theater here in New York, and the DVDs do not replicate it at all. It was an amazing experience, so I'm naturally very disappointed in the quality of the DVD version.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

DeeF - What kind of system are you viewing these discs on? Did you switch back and forth between the releases in real time using 2 players with similar connections to your TV?

My screen caps haven't convinced you that the color on the 1999 releases is way off, yet the color balance between both 2005 transfers (including the one you claim as the winner, the CinemaScope transfer) is the same. Isn't it this 1999 release that sticks out as not matching at all?

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

My monitor is a Fujitsu 50" plasma, which will resolve DVDs to 1080i. I have watched these versions simultaneously, switching back and forth, and I have included in the comparison the version of the Todd-AO which I recorded from TCM (which is actually better than the DVD).

I work in the musical theater, and I used to work directly for the Rodgers and Hammerstein company, in an archival capacity.

I think that Todd-AO provided a superior image to Cinemascope, with its larger format. If one could see the Todd-AO image as it really looked, one might be able to judge more accurately the intended colors.

But the Todd-AO prints were made in Eastmancolor, and the Widescreen Museum has some screen shots of what has happened to these prints -- no more yellow, completely gone. The Cinemascope prints were processed by Technicolor, so no fading happened at all.

I'm just guessing that the recent transfer of the Todd-AO version used the Cinemascope version as a reference for color.

But once again, the color issues are not the reason I don't like this recent version. It's blurry. And your screenshots show that it's blurry.

The Cinemascope version isn't blurry, it's clear.

In the example you provided of the night shot where Ado Annie is talking to the Peddlar. Behind him is his wagon (on the right). There is more detail to that wagon in the 2005 Todd-AO transfer than on the 1999, because of the crushed blacks in the 1999 version.

Now look at the Cinemascope version.

Is there really any question about which one of these DVD versions of the movie is watchable?

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I'm not debating the merits of the CinemaScope version, or which of the three is easier on the eyes. I'm only stating my opinion that the 2005 Todd-AO isn't as bad as people have been claiming and is superior to the heavily processsed 1999 transfer. If Fox apologized for OKLAHOMA for being over processed, then I should think they were referring to the 1999 DVD. If anything, one might say the 2005 transfer wasn't processed enough, but I don't know.

If you worked for R&H in their archives, can you explain what is wrong with the Todd-AO elements and transfers for sure? I know all about Eastmancolor and their prints, but surely pre-print materials exist such as separation masters and the like to produce new, clean prints without fading. I highly doubt a faded Easmancolor print was used for either Todd-AO transfers.

Sorry, but I still think the 2005 Todd-AO DVD is superior to the 1999 Todd-AO disc. I was amazed by the 1995 or 1996 THX Laserdisc of OKLAHOMA when it first came out, the same transfer recycled for the 199 DVD release, but now? Nope, not at all.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

DeeF: What do you think of the assertions that the 2005 Todd-AO looks like a faded 16mm print mastered from VHS?

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I never saw the movie on VHS. I don't think I use those extreme kinds of descriptions, anyway.

I wasn't perfectly happy with the old Oklahoma DVD, because it had the Todd-AO version of the movie which I personally think is inferior (in terms of the performances, particularly Gloria Grahame). But I watched it several times.

When the new one came out, I was delighted to have the Cinemascope version at last, and it's the first thing that I watched! I had no complaints.

Then I put in the second disk. I immediately knew something went terribly wrong, somewhere.

About 4 years ago, on this forum, I started a thread about having a new DVD of Oklahoma!, with a documentary showing the songs of the two different versions simultaneously, top and bottom. They use the same pre-recorded soundtrack for the singing.

Anyway, Robert Harris chimed in and said "if R&H don't do something immediately, they may lose that movie (the Todd-AO) forever."

I'm paraphrasing, but my impression of what he said is that the negative itself was decomposing, and there were no acceptable prints that could be relied upon in its place.

Oklahoma! is unusual, because it belongs to R&H and nobody else. South Pacific was co-produced by Fox, so the negative (presumably) was in better shape. On the current South Pacific disk, one can see what happens to these films when they decay, because they've got a second version that looks like an old 2-color movie, green and red only. No yellow, no blue.

There's a recent movie on DVD, called Angels and Insects (it's a good movie, too) that really is unwatchable because it's blurry. It gives you a headache.

I guess, some edge enhancement is always required. It's very possible that the old Todd-AO version of Oklahoma! is overly enhanced because... they had to do it to make the movie watchable. Otherwise, it's just soft and blurry.

They went the other way in 2005, so now we have this debate...which do we prefer? Blurry, or over-filtered?

I prefer the Cinemascope.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

So what if the 2005 isn't as bad? That's like saying White Chicks wasn't as bad as Epic Movie.

Since semantics are being stressed, I take back my comment about it looking like VHS or 16mm. Although, 16mm can look razor sharp and colorful compared to either transfer.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I would give my first-born to own a 16mm print of Porgy and Bess, another movie filmed in Todd-AO that is...all but lost forever.

But I understand that there are some very good 16mm prints of it out there, in stereo.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I too would love to see Porgy and Bess but apparently the Executors of the Gershwin Estate feel that it their duty to prevent anyone from ever seeing it.A 16mm source would be better than nothing but I have never heard of any 16mm prints having a stereo tracks, it was always optical or magnetic mono.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Oh, is that true? I don't know anything about projected film, really.

The soundtrack recording won a Grammy for Andre Previn. The original 70mm was 6-channel sound, I believe.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I don't want to continue steering this off-topic...but have you all seen the nice clips of Porgy & Bess posted on YouTube?

They will definitely leave you wanting for more.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

All the talk today about Oklahoma! prompted me to watch it again. The Cinemascope version, which is just terrific.

Something I noticed: at the very end, after the final credits, is a credit for the distributor: RKO.

The Cinemascope version was indeed distributed by Fox, when RKO went under. Fox logos are nowhere to be found on the movie itself.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I read that PORGY AND BESS is no longer being held captive by the Gershwin Estate at all, but rather by the poor condition of the elements for the film. Did Columbia put that out originally, or did they just put out the soundtrack album? I should think with their preservation program it would at least be preserved even if they don't want to pay the Gershwin Estate for music rights and let them have a cut of any royalties from a DVD release. I wonder what special provisions were in the contracts of some of these composers (Irving Berlin with ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, Frank Loesser with WHERE'S CHARLEY?, Weill and Gershwin for LADY IN THE DARK, the Gershwins with PORGY AND BESS, etc.) that gave them such power, since presumably many of these films have been kept out of distribution because after a certain period of time music rights needed to be renegotiated. Talk about forcasting the future...

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I don't know the whole story about Porgy and Bess. I suspect some kind of legal entanglements.

The Gershwins don't like the film, it's true, but the original participants are all dead, and the estates tend to look for ways to make money, so it doesn't really make sense that they would hold onto the film with an iron fist.

I read online yesterday about a print which was shown just 2 years ago, in 70mm and 6 channel sound, in LA. So, I guess the original exists in good enough condition to make a print. I hope somebody decides to put it out on DVD -- they'll have at least one buyer.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

And maybe a coupla three more.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

This is one project I would love to see Robert Harris work his magic touch on.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Columbia Pictures released PORGY AND BESS in theaters but they were just distributing for Sam Goldwyn.

Columbia Records released the soundtrack album, but the Columbia Record Company (CBS) is not at all related to Columbia Pictures. The Columbia Pictures record label was Colpix.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Columbia Records is, ironically, now part of Sony Corporation, who has owned it since 1988, and they're not doing any better with it than the film studio Columbia Pictures.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Although it's not really the thread for it, since we mentioned Porgy and Bess, I thought I'd bring up that it's going to be projected at the Ziegfeld Theater in New York, this coming September.

Yippee!

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

I'm going to ask an admin. to separate out the last several posts and start a separate thread on the issue of Porgy & Bess. It seems as if it is a subject very much worthy of its own discussion.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Hate to revive a long-dead thread, but since Oklahoma was just added to the National Film Registry, perhaps it will finally get the restoration it needs.

Re: "Oklahoma" any plans to correct the Todd-AO disc?

Having seen Oklahoma! at the Rivoli in 1955 as an "Event" film, it's sad to see what it has become.

This is a film that deserves greatly to be saved.

The basic problem is simply yellow layer failure, which can be restored.

RAH