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post #151 of 487
12/9/06 at 8:36am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidPla
As much as I enjoyed "Smallville", they should've taken it off the air at least 2 years before the movie premiered. Just my opinion.

Just so the movie would do better at the BO? Clark wasn't and isn't yet Superman on the show so ending it that early just for the sake of a movie would have blew. If i'm understanding you right, if not I apologize in advance.

Bryan,
your making the same mistake that too many people make, your judging the show based on your knowledge of past Superman incarnations, don't, it's telling it's own story and creating it's own mythology which is why it is the definitive story of Superman WITHIN THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT AND CREATED UNIVERSE, not held up to other incarnations for comparison.

All versions of the Superman story are acceptable to me (with maybe the exception of Lois & Clark which turned Supes into a shmaltzy soap opera) as long as they include key characters and they end up where they're supposed to end up, Smallville is on track for that IMO, Clark is getting more mature and has learned most of the key life lessons he'll use as Supes and is about to accept Jor-El's training for his final step, Lex gets more sinister by the week, Lois has finally taken an interest in journalism and Lana will no doubt end up living in Smallville as she's supposed to.

As for Welling's voice, that's why they have voice coaches for actors in movies.
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post #152 of 487
12/9/06 at 3:19pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
Bryan,
your making the same mistake that too many people make, your judging the show based on your knowledge of past Superman incarnations, don't, it's telling it's own story and creating it's own mythology which is why it is the definitive story of Superman WITHIN THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT AND CREATED UNIVERSE, not held up to other incarnations for comparison.

All versions of the Superman story are acceptable to me (with maybe the exception of Lois & Clark which turned Supes into a shmaltzy soap opera) as long as they include key characters and they end up where they're supposed to end up, Smallville is on track for that IMO, Clark is getting more mature and has learned most of the key life lessons he'll use as Supes and is about to accept Jor-El's training for his final step, Lex gets more sinister by the week, Lois has finally taken an interest in journalism and Lana will no doubt end up living in Smallville as she's supposed to.

As for Welling's voice, that's why they have voice coaches for actors in movies.

I don't see how this conception of Superman has anything to do with Welling's voice?

I love what he did as Clark Kent in the first few seasons, I love that true heroic aura around Welling in that time.

What I absolutely hate about this incarnation of Superman, is that Metropolis is right down the road from Smallville, and that Lois Lane is involved in Clark's life.
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post #153 of 487
12/9/06 at 4:56pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Wish I hadn't read the past few pages. I'm about to begin the HD-DVD of Smallville Season 5. I figured Jonathon Kent would die sooner than later...since they certainly flirted with this in Seasons 3 & 4. But Smallville has gone such a different direction than I thought I wasn't so sure.

No one's fault. My eyes just glanced down a bit too far.

Still, I didn't read so far in knowing when it happens.

Carry on.
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post #154 of 487
12/9/06 at 5:02pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Don't worry, Tim, reading about something and actually seeing it are two different things, it'll still be a rewarding season for you I hope, very emotional.
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post #155 of 487
1/19/07 at 5:27pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

More Villains & Action in Superman Sequel?

http://www.superherohype.com/news.php?id=5100
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post #156 of 487
1/20/07 at 2:02pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

My sure-fire recipe for a successful Superman Returns sequel:

1) Good, experienced writers who can write sharp, witty dialogue. Not lines like "personally, I think that's a load of crap"

2) Superman needs to speak. He needs dialogue that runs more than five or six words.

3) Superman needs to smile and exhibit charisma. Emotional conflict and angst is good, but there needs to be balance. There must be a cheery, joyful atmosphere so when the emotionally charged scenes arrive they will resonate. Superman Returns just about went over the line on the angst, the movie should not be a depressing experience.

4) The movie needs to move. There needs to be at least three setpieces, one for each act of the film. Each setpiece must be more spectacular and exciting than the one before. Scenes inbetween setpieces must also be energetic.

5) Lay of the Christ allegory. Some of that works, but too much is silly and pretentious.

6) No semi-hip, ironic updating of famous phrases, ie "truth, justice, and all that other stuff"

Follow this template and they will have a monster hit on their hands. Doesn't really matter what the plot is or who the villain is.
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post #157 of 487
1/20/07 at 4:01pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
No semi-hip, ironic updating of famous phrases, ie "truth, justice, and all that other stuff"

No, that was just a mixture of P.C.ness, international marketing (which I believe was the "official" excuse. Not like they couldn't have redubbed the line for foreign markets), and embarrisment of "the current activities of America" (the real reason)
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post #158 of 487
1/20/07 at 4:21pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillG
No, that was just a mixture of P.C.ness, international marketing (which I believe was the "official" excuse. Not like they couldn't have redubbed the line for foreign markets), and embarrisment of Bush's America (the real reason)


How do you know that is the real reason? Was Singer quoted on this? Please be careful with the political references as well.
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post #159 of 487
1/20/07 at 4:37pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
How do you know that is the real reason? Was Singer quoted on this? Please be careful with the political references as well.

Don't know for sure, just my cynical theory. Not intending to be political either. Just stating what I think the reason for the line change is.
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post #160 of 487
1/20/07 at 6:06pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I think people forget that Lois mocked the "American Way" sentiment in the first film- "you're gonna end up fighting every elected official in this country".

I think very few people in 1978, after the things that had happened for the last 15 years, were not chuckling in sympathy with her attitude.

I guess, since so much of the emotional appeal of SR is predicated upon sentimental affectations, it makes sense that some people are riled up that a quaint phrase that appears to have no substance beyond sentimentality, was subverted here.
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post #161 of 487
1/20/07 at 6:26pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

That line from Superman Returns was discussed on the Huffington Post. It was noticed. The context in that news forum was some Marvel Comics Spiderman plot, currently running, in which superheros who do not register their identities are rounded up and shipped to an island where the American government no longer has to respect American laws.

I doubt the next Spidey movie will get that relevant, but apparently that is where the comics are now. Sounds like shades of X-Men to me.
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post #162 of 487
1/20/07 at 7:47pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
I think people forget that Lois mocked the "American Way" sentiment in the first film- "you're gonna end up fighting every elected official in this country".

Yes, but the American Way, to Superman is more than just about politics. Everybody has an axe to grind with politics, which is why Lois says that line, but remember that Superman counters with "Surely you don't mean that Lois" Meaning that "The American Way" is about more than "every elected official"

I think the change in "Superman Returns" is completely betrays the bigger picture and Superman's Creed. It really does revert to Lois's misunderstanding retort, for which, I believe is Hollywood's attiude towards "What is going on right now" Not saying that certain opinions are right or wrong. But it is lame to change Superman's signature creed because of contemporary political attiudes or foreign marketing.
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post #163 of 487
1/20/07 at 10:31pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I'm completely with Paul on this one. I think more people have more attachment to the line than the meaning.

To say that SR betrays Superman's Creed by altering that phrase, well, 'That's a load of crap'. (Tongue placed firmly in cheek)

Superman's Creed, in it's most simplistic terms, is to help people (not just those in mortal danger). To take it a step further, Superman is supposed to be blind to color, race, religion, and gender. He has adopted mankind, just as mankind has done to him. Some would argue that Superman claiming to fight for the 'American Way' might almost be against his creed :p

Scott, I think you are going a bit overboard to call "Truth, Justice, all that stuff" semi hip-hop. The line is changed, but give me a break.
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post #164 of 487
1/20/07 at 10:39pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I have always viewed the character of Superman to be kind of global....not just for the U.S. The line change didn't bother me at all.
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post #165 of 487
1/21/07 at 1:39am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover
I have always viewed the character of Superman to be kind of global....not just for the U.S. The line change didn't bother me at all.

Superman in the comics was meant to represent what America stood for.

No matter what your political affiliation, here in the US we are still Americans, and Superman represents our ideals.
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post #166 of 487
1/21/07 at 5:37am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Anyway, back to the story that came out a few days ago, what's everyone's top choice for a villain from the D.C. Universe?

My vote is still with Metallo. I still wouldn't mind seeing other characters like Brainiac or the Parisite. I feel like Doomsday would be too one dimensional on his own, but Darkseid would be epic if stretched over a couple films.
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post #167 of 487
1/21/07 at 5:42am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX
Superman in the comics was meant to represent what America stood for.

No matter what your political affiliation, here in the US we are still Americans, and Superman represents our ideals.

I disagree. The line was added to the mix with the 1950s TV show, a time which I think most people would agree had less debate over what "American ideals" were. Now, you're unlikely to get two people to agree on what constitutes "American ideals" - least of all the politicians, as mocked in the first film - and therefore, I thought working around the line as they did in Returns was an appropriate move.
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post #168 of 487
1/21/07 at 5:43am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ri
Anyway, back to the story that came out a few days ago, what's everyone's top choice for a villain from the D.C. Universe?

Brainiac was handled brilliant in the animated series. I wouldn't mind seeing an interpretation along those lines again.
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post #169 of 487
1/21/07 at 7:29am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Changing the "line" was chicken****. Basically, in an interview, the authors confirmed it was changed to not "offend" non-U.S. citizens. The line is a specific part of the character's history. Two people don't have the same opinions on "truth" or "justice", much less the "american way". But truth and justice were kept. Intentionally removing just that part reeks, in my opinion. It wouldn't have been removed if the film were released in 2002. It simply rubbed me the wrong way...the authors sucked at a lot of Superman stuff to me. The line was a small fraction of what I think they got wrong.
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post #170 of 487
1/21/07 at 8:03am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
It wouldn't have been removed if the film were released in 2002.

I agree with that.
But, frankly, I just find that fact embarassing
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post #171 of 487
1/21/07 at 8:08am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
It wouldn't have been removed if the film were released in 2002.

Perhaps, but let's not pretend that "The American Way" is something that is frozen and doesn't change. I hope the mods don't take this as a political discussion, because history tells us that "The American Way" has changed drastically from that initial Constitutional Convention in the late 18th century. If Superman was around at that time and always followed "The American Way" from that point on, he really wouldn't be that much of a hero, would he?

I personally was thrilled that "The American Way" was taken out of the slogan in the film. And remember, Superman didn't deliver the line in the film, Perry White did.

And to go back to your original quote, in 2002 when Spider-Man came out that summer and in the final shot we had our hero hanging on the flag pole, it felt cheap. It was certainly appropriate, given that we were less than a year removed from 9-11 with the film taking place in one of the cities that fell victim to the attacks, coupled with the fact that Spidey isn't really a global hero as much as he is an NYC one. However it added nothing to the character or movie, and felt like a way to gain sentimental support for an already successful character
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post #172 of 487
1/21/07 at 8:12am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
The line was a small fraction of what I think they got wrong.

Agreed. That line and the consistently brooding, self-pitying Superman. The whole "outsider" mentality really grates on my nerves. Get over yourself already, y'know? I guess considering the writers and director it's no surprise though.
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post #173 of 487
1/21/07 at 8:48am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Let's move on, shall we? This thread is about the sequel to Superman Returns.
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post #174 of 487
1/21/07 at 8:57am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Favate
Brainiac was handled brilliant in the animated series. I wouldn't mind seeing an interpretation along those lines again.

I agree, they could also probably incorporate some of that cut footage of Superman's return to Krypton in creating his storyline.
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post #175 of 487
1/21/07 at 11:09am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

So, who would you guys have play/voice Brainiac?
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post #176 of 487
1/21/07 at 5:01pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

James Earl Jones!
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post #177 of 487
1/21/07 at 5:47pm

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres Munoz
James Earl Jones!

I would think he would be more along the lines of Darkseid :p
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post #178 of 487
1/22/07 at 8:51am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Calvert
My sure-fire recipe for a successful Superman Returns sequel:

1) Good, experienced writers who can write sharp, witty dialogue. Not lines like "personally, I think that's a load of crap"

2) Superman needs to speak. He needs dialogue that runs more than five or six words.

3) Superman needs to smile and exhibit charisma. Emotional conflict and angst is good, but there needs to be balance. There must be a cheery, joyful atmosphere so when the emotionally charged scenes arrive they will resonate. Superman Returns just about went over the line on the angst, the movie should not be a depressing experience.

4) The movie needs to move. There needs to be at least three setpieces, one for each act of the film. Each setpiece must be more spectacular and exciting than the one before. Scenes inbetween setpieces must also be energetic.

5) Lay of the Christ allegory. Some of that works, but too much is silly and pretentious.

6) No semi-hip, ironic updating of famous phrases, ie "truth, justice, and all that other stuff"

Follow this template and they will have a monster hit on their hands. Doesn't really matter what the plot is or who the villain is.

Don't forget....

7) Get rid of the kid.

8) Make Lex a corporate CEO like the comics and not a criminal with buffonish sidekicks.

9)While on Lex. Enough that he wants real estate. What makes Lex a good villain. Is that besides wanting to be top dog. In his own twisted mind..He thinks Superman is a menace and believes he should be taken down for the sake of mankind.

10) Get rid of the kid.

11) Like others have said...Bring in Metallo or Brainiac. Lex can still be around. But, he could be the one who creates Metallo or somehow contacts/revitalizes Brainaic.
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post #179 of 487
1/22/07 at 9:48am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I think he's come to terms with the place he's at in his life by the end of SR and youre going to get alot of those things in the sequel.
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post #180 of 487
1/23/07 at 11:37am

Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by todd s
7) Get rid of the kid.

Unfortunately, they pretty much wrote themselves in a corner with that one. I can't say I'm thrilled with the idea.

Quote:
8) Make Lex a corporate CEO like the comics and not a criminal with buffonish sidekicks.

How about making Lex SMART and not a two bit criminal? The reason why Lex is a good villian for Superman is the fact that he can outwit Superman. There have been some hints of that (the green kryptonite mixed in the island), but for the most part his schemes have come off as half-baked. The first movie came the closest.

Here's another one: Let the actors make the characters their own, rather than depending on characterizations by other actors. Fact is, it seems like Singer didn't trust Routh to make the character his own, so they don't let him speak that many lines, and what they do let him speak sounds more like what Reeves' Superman would say. Unfortunately, Bosworth's Lois is underdeveloped, and comes off as a selfabsorbed bitch. Even Kevin Spacey was still playing Lex along the lines of Hackman's Lex, with his own mannerisms mixed in.

Jason
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