UFC Ongoing Thread - Page 9

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The early verdict in the Corey Hill debate is that it is still too soon to tell. He's just not had enough fights and any of the flaws you saw in tonight's episode (trying to keep it vague until everyone's seen it) can be corrected with experience.

Lauzon looked very good. Lauzon writes a diary about the show for the Boston Herald which is worth checking out. Maybe I'll link to it when I see that it has gone up.

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Liddell lays another beating on Tito Ortiz

I love this man.

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I'm not good at predicting who will be a good fight; I just enjoy the fighters that are already seasoned. What I saw from Corey Hill was pretty much what I suspected before I saw him fight -- he's more lip than anything at this point. I did not see him take control of that fight.

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But, you had to expect that when you realized that he had like no pro fights before that one, maybe one at the max. Corey has the potential, the thing about him is that I still damn near guarantee superstardom for him just because of his personality. True, he must win a few fights to maintain that level, however personality is 70 percent or more of the game now days.

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In your opinion, what happens to those who are winners but don't have the personality? When you're say personality is 70%, I read it as personality trumps skill and luck. How does someone like Matt Hughes fit into that theory? It doesn't seem like many like him, but he was a winner who beat his opponents, so UFC featured him. I do get that personality sells in sports (it's entertainment after all).

BTW, what I meant to say above is I'm not good at predicting who will become a good fighter. I can (sometimes) recognize a good fighter when I see one, but I have no idea if someone is going to develop into a good fighter.

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Perhaps I should've said things differently. The path to becoming a superstar is significantly easier if you've got a personality than if you don't. If you don't have one, you can become a star but it is much harder to maintain it without one.

Mikah used Matt Hughes as an example. Hughes is a guy that a lot of people don't really like. But, that doesn't really make that much of a difference because people will pay to see a guy they don't like with the hope that he gets his butt kicked. Pro Wrestling has been selling out arenas for decades off of that notion. The connection between MMA and Pro Wrestling is one that many MMA fans do not want to admit exists but the fact is you really can't ignore it without doing some heavy rationalizing.

Take Mirko Cro Cop for an example. Cro Cop made himself a star by knocking guys out and doing it in highlight reele fashion. However, him getting KOed by Gonzaga really hurt him. For fans who only know Cro Cop from UFC he is now just another guy. The reason is that he doesn't really have a great personality that the people in the U.S. have connected with.

Contrast that with Tito Ortiz. Tito is the top draw in the history of MMA in terms of ticket sales and PPV buys and TV ratings. Tito and Ken Shamrock set a UFC record on PPV last July for a fight that nobody thought Shamrock could win when that show did 775,000 buys on PPV. In October, their rematch on TV garnered the highest ratings in UFC history for another fight that nobody thought Shamrock could win. But Tito and Ken know how to sell fights and it was their personalities that sold those 2 pretty one-sided fights to the nation. BTW, the first UFC show to do over 100,000 PPV buys was Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock at UFC 40 back in 2002.

Tito is coming off of a loss just like Mirko is coming off of a loss but Tito's drawing power is much less impacted because he knows what needs to be done to sell that next fight with Rashad Evans and he's doing it.

My favorite fighter in UFC is Anderson Silva. However, of all UFC's champions his star shines dimmest. The fact is even though he's a brutal striker that would probably cream Matt Serra, the fact he doesn't speak English and you don't really know what kind of personality he has means Matt Serra is the bigger star. If Silva loses you've got to think about how best to build him up so that he can sell PPV buys. If Ortiz loses to Rashad, just book him for his next fight and watch him stir up some trouble.

Liddell is the most interesting case because he's kind of got a weird personality. He's soft spoken, he isn't very emotional and in a way his blandness works for him. I mean I guess it is because you expect that out of someone who's nickname is the Ice Man but the fact he's so soft spoken interests people. However, if he were a soft spoken guy with an 9-9 record well...he'd be in a lot more trouble.

So tying this back to Corey. I'm not so concerned about whether he wins or loses at this stage because Corey has one thing going for him that most guys do not. He is someone you will remember. You may remember him and say: "That guy is all talk and no fight", or "I like his cockiness and find it amusing". You may love him or hate him but you'll remember him.

So if he comes out and loses a couple of fights early as he gets better, his personality is such that he can ensure that people will still want to see him. Now if he just keeps getting owned and owned repeatedly than no amount of personality will save him but in his particular case you've got to think that he's got too much potential for that to be realistic. Now, it may turn out to be unrealized potential but the potential is there.

Ultimately, and UFC has said this before, you are better off losing an entertaining fight than winning a boring one. You entertain in the UFC and it doesn't matter if you're on a losing streak, they'll bring you back. Josh Koscheck won a fight at UFC 69 but because it was boring it cost him a title shot. Look at Elvis Sinosic, he's 8-10-2 in MMA but UFC will bring him in for fights because in losing he always has entertaining fights.

Now sure, you can't measure whether or not that adds up to 70 percent personality and 30 percent skill or not because those are hardly tangible, but at least now anyone who reads this will understand why I think that it will be easier for Corey to be a star than it might otherwise be just because of his personality.

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There was nothing wrong with what you initially said, I just needed some clarification. Great writeup. Thanks.

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No, thank you, I really enjoy our discussions in here.

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Koscheck to face St. Pierre at UFC 74

This should be an interesting if not entertaining fight. This will be a tough one for both men actually.

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Yes, remember Hughes and Serra are the coaches for TUF 6 and will fight at the end of the season?

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IFL Battleground Recap

I should note that the show is not over yet, and I've already finished recapping it. I could take no more of this week's format after the first half hour.

A step back from last week. I give them credit for being willing to try a knew format to find what works best...but this is not it.

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The UFC 71 weigh-ins will be televised on ESPN News. This is another mark of a budding coverage of MMA on the ESPN family of Networks.

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Massive MMA News and Notes Update 05/24/2007: All the Liddell-Jackson hype you can handle, Pride sale done?, K-1 Dynamite USA show a disaster?, White wants Lesnar-talking to Kurt Angle?, challenge coming this saturday after Main Event?, boxer offered 3-fight MMA contract with Showtime company?, lots more Dana White stuff, When will Mirko fight again?, should fighters apologize for boring matches?, did a boring match cost a fighter a title shot?, fighter off of WEC's versus debut?, Dear Don Returns!, IFL Playoffs explained, and way more than I can remember here

It has been awhile since I've done a post with a lot of news in it, lately I prefer to take one item at a time, but I decided the giant post would work better today.

You'll probably find something of interest to you in there to read.

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Casey as always, great stuff. I for one appreciate all the info you provide us. Thanks again.

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Well, I would be doing this anyway, but being able to share it here is a nice byproduct, so you're welcome...thanks for reading it.

TUF was great tonight, I really liked that fight between Cole and Lauzon too bad it involved an illegal elbow. Anytime Dana gets pissed it is a good thing to view and it is clear that he wants to give the appearance that he will do anything to shed the streetfighting image. I'm not so sure, Dana really believes half of what he said in that rant for reasons I explain in this article. Speaking of TUF, I don't often link them on my blog but if you go to Inside Fighting you can read Jens Pulver's reaction blogs after each episode. Joe Lauzon does them for the Boston Herald and they're both great.

Since I'm here anyway I may as well link to some UFC DVD release dates I'll buy them all, but UFC 68 will be especially important.

Another article on the Liddell-Jackson fight

Oh, and one more news bit that I found out about after I made that gigantic post. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua signs with UFC I've said it here before and in the post I just linked. Rua is the man I think is most likely to end Liddell's reign of dominance. I know that under unified rules he can't use these anymore, but if you ever get a chance, track down Pride 29 and watch him deliver some lethal soccer kicks.

Last but not least, if you're watching the show Saturday I hope everyone has fun. If you're not but are near a computer, I'll have live round-by-round coverage of the show.

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Can you explain that. I thought Pro Wrestling was loosely scripted and MMA is only "scripted" in terms of the matchups. MMA fights themselves are completely unscripted AFAIK.

Has there been a report about this?

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Mikah, the fact that the outcomes aren't predetermined is about where the differences between MMA and Pro Wrestling end. When I say MMA is just like Pro Wrestling, I don't mean it as an insult. Wrestling more than anything else has carried both the PPV and cable industries. Sure, De La Hoya Vs. Mayweather (which if you watch the hype specials for that fight and are a long time fan of wrestling, those remind you of Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair from 1989 as well but that's another rant) holds the record for biggest buy rate ever but a bad month for WWE is 180,000 world wide buys and they don't have many bad months. Back at the peak of Raw Vs. Nitro the combined ratings for both shows were greater than what ESPN did last season for Monday Night Football. PPV providers loved it when WWF and WCW would both put up impressive buyrate numbers month after month after month in the 97-98 era.

So when I say MMA is just like Pro Wrestling...that's not supposed to be an insult because they are both successful doing the exact same things. It is MMA fans that perceive it as an insult because they see wrestling as the circus...Well, that same circus is what makes MMA relevant today.

When I wrote my reasons for why I thought Corey Hill had star potential, all of that was based on the foundation that MMA is just like pro wrestling. Fans want personalities that they connect with which is why Hulk Hogan is a millionaire and which is why Corey has an advantage over fighters who might be more technically skilled at this stage than he.

When it comes to the promotional aspect MMA and Pro Wrestling are the same. UFC will take a fighter, give him some easy opponents for him to beat, hoping he'll build a name up for himself...then they put him in with whomever is the champion is and draw good numbers for a title fight on PPV. The WWE was doing this with Hulk Hogan 20 years ago before UFC existed in the first place. Even before then, that's the formula used in regional territories as far back as you want to go.
Look back at the build for Hughes and Gracie. A legend returning to the Octagon where he dominated in the early days to fight the most dominant man of today. Ric Flair Vs. Terry Funk from 1989 is a pretty good example of that one, and Hulk Hogan Vs. The Rock in 2002 is another.
Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz who both have wrestling backgrounds drew 775,000 PPV buys because they know how to work a fight. After their third fight, they hugged and one said to the other: "It was just business, we made a lot of money together". Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz, both dominant champions, former friends now fighting...Hulk Hogan Vs. Randy Savage at Wrestlemania V in 1989. Dana White Vs. Tito Ortiz or Vince McMahon Vs. Steve Austin, its the same story. Tito is a master of the game, a confrontation takes place at a UFC show between Tito Ortiz and Rashad Evans 3 months before they're scheduled to actually fight...then they trade barbs back and forth in the media calling each other names and such. Now which do you think is most likely? Tito hates Rashad or Tito's doing what he needs to in order to make sure people are talking about his next fight.

UFC will even prompt guys in their post-fight interviews with things to say to build up the next fight. Remember when GSP told Hughes he wasn't impressed by his performance against B.J. Penn? He was fed that line, and after the cameras were off of them he apologized to Hughes if he thought he was being disrespectful.

The setting up of fights has more to do with the angle you can work than the skill you'd see in the fight. No, UFC doesn't predetermine their outcomes but they do their best to try. Ken Shamrock didn't have any chance to beat Tito Ortiz and no matter how much they wanted you to believe otherwise (and they convinced a lot of people that it could happen) Royce Gracie had 0 chance of beating Matt Hughes.
Even when an upset does happen like Serra over GSP or Gonzaga over Cro Cop...UFC is smart enough to take the new storyline and run with it. I've got no doubt Serra legitimately dislikes Matt Hughes but it is that dislike legit or manufactured that will sell that fight more than the skill of either guy.

The fights are the cherry on the Sunday. Its the story that sells the show, Tyson Griffin and Frank Edgar had the best fight on UFC 67 and one of the best of the year...nobody bought that show for that fight outside of maybe their family members. Whatever that show did was because people wanted to see if the Pride legends could come in and dominate the Octagon and if the reality series winner could hang with the champ. One need only look to Andrei Arlovski for more proof. He beat Fabricio Werdum and going in he was told, if you beat Werdum you'll get a title shot. His title shot was revoked because even though he beat Werdum, it was a boring fight...and the UFC doesn't want boring fight. Arlovski had an effective strategy for winning, he used the skills he had but because it was boring he'll have to wait before he gets a title shot.

UFC is hot right now, converting a greater percentage of its TV viewers in to PPV buyers than either of the wrestling companies...but what UFC is doing now to sell fights the WWE has been doing effectively on PPV since the genre was invented and on the road going back decades before. UFC even makes the same mistake that wrestling companies do with over exposure.

So, now I hope you see why I and many others maintain MMA is just like Pro Wrestling. The drama sells more than athleticism ever will. People want to know if Chuck Liddell can beat Quinton Jackson, the same way people wanted to know if Hulk Hogan can beat Andre the Giant, very few people concern themselves with how that task is accomplished...it's whether the task is accomplished or not that drives interest.

Edit to make one more point: In Japan the fans don't really see any difference between MMA and Pro Wrestling. Guys cross from one to the other without it being a big deal. MMA companies have co-promoted shows with wrestling companies over in Japan in the past and there's no outcry from purists in that society because they know what's really going on. Dana White can say he wants nothing to do with the wrestling stigma, but he's talking to Kurt Angle because Kurt Angle could make him some money. I maintain Angle's not serious about MMA just keeping his name out there and would be scared to see him do it...but regardless of that, there is money to be made and lots of it for Kurt Angle's first fight.

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Mikah, I'm hoping that Andres saw This article which was one of a zillion I linked to in my Massive MMA News and Notes post yesterday. Its from MMA weekly and titled: "Ultimate Fighter's ratings flat at midseason".

But as someone who pays attention to the ratings for Wrestling and MMA...yes, this is the lowest viewed season of the Ultimate Fighter to date typically doing 1.1's and 1.2's. That's not that much higher than the ratings TNA iMPACT does the hour before, but in the key 18-49 demos, TUF does way better. As for the reason, it could be because last season of TUF was so disinteresting in terms of the personalities on the show and quality of fights that people stopped caring. It could also be that the uniqueness of seeing fights on free TV is starting to wear off and this is the market correcting itself. I fit in to the its a combination of both category myself, although I wish this show were doing better because this has been a great season.

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Gotcha. Thanks. It's that bit that matters most to me. I never watched wrestling because I didn't like the scripted nature. Even though I know just about every wrestler you named (and many more going back to Dick The Bruiser), I never really watched wrestling. I just don't like the scripting. So I was hoping not to wake up one day and have the rug pulled from under me while finding out MMA fights are scripted. The fact that the fights are real and anybody can win on any given day is what draws me to MMA. I love what these guys do to be the best.

I still find The Ultimate Fighter interesting. That street fight was dangerous. It's one thing to get in the grass and go at it, but getting head slammed into concrete is no fun. Serious damage could have occurred. I watched the episode after Casey's comments, but another possible reason occurred to me as to why it was shown. It's possible Dana simply wanted to show the folks kicked off and show how serious he is about UFC not being a league of street brawlers. In other words, it happened, but in no way did UFC condone it. I'm OK with both fighters being kicked off the show, but what I feel a bit bad about is it affecting possible future UFC fights. On the flip side, supporting Casey's coments about showing it for ratings, I couldn't take my eyes away. It was like watching Rocky and Tommy Morrison go at it on the street in Rocky 5 (my favorite part of that movie).

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This was my initial response as well. Then I thought about it more...and the more I thought the more I changed my mind.
I would buy this argument more if they just showed the fight as part of the episode without using it in all of the hype commercials. Even if this isn't the kind of thing you want in UFC drawing attention to it with your own commercials is counter productive. They didn't show any of Dana's speech in the commercials (at least those I saw) just the fight, so if someone were to only watch the commercials, see portions of the fight and not the consequences...that would reenforce their impression of those UFC guys and they wouldn't even bother to watch and see them get kicked off the show.

I think they could've revolved all of the commercials around the interaction of Jens and BJ and that would've been good enough to accomplish the task of attracting viewers. I'll check back in later with the rating for TUF last night to see if hyping the fight made any ratings difference.

Again, I don't blame them for showing the fight or Dana for cutting his promo on those guys, it was compelling TV that's for sure. The one thing that it did do is show future contestants not to be this stupid, so in that respect Dana's point was made.

I'll not link to them all but if you go to the front page of my blog here I've got posts going up all day surrounding UFC 71. Don't forget you can watch the weigh-ins on ESPNews and a hundred other places at 7:00 PM ET. I'll have notes on the show as it happens as ell. UFC is getting more mainstream press now with ESPN and SI than it ever has in the past. Quite the contrast from the days when politicians wanted it to be banned...and were successful in getting it banned in New York.

I suggest to anyone who hasn't that they buy UFC 1 on DVD. You can get it for as low as 10.24 from Deepdiscount. You look back at what UFC was then to now and then it will really hit you just how much things can change.

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Yes even more News and Notes: More UFC 71 Previews, Q&A with top EXC Welterweight, IFL News and Notes, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, 2 big name UFC fighters talk retirement, Strikeforce PPV update and more

I'm glad nothing major has happened in wrestling that needs my attention today.

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My Live Coverage of UFC 71

My response in the aftermath of UFC 71

My advice to you guys is this. If you want to make some money, when I pick winners for UFC 72...bet the other way. Or, if you'd like even a better guarantee than that...when Randy Couture picks a winner, you listen.

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Randy is on a roll. That was a pretty good card. Glad I caught this one.