*** Official The Prestige Discussion Thread - Page 4

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But wouldn't duplicates be the exact same not only in appearance but in personality as well? An EXACT copy? It wouldn't make sense to me that they would suddenly just change in personality unless one of them went off to war or something. It's clear that the "twins" have very different personalities. One was the smarter, quieter and more loving while the other angry, impulsive and willing to do anything.

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I like the idea that they were duplicates, but I always took it as them being identical twins.


Well, that doesn't mean a thing. In the context of the movie, one was always pretending to be the assistant. How exactly would they have been able to keep up their trick if they publicly called each other "brother"?

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I don't suggest that Borden purchased one of Tesla's machines - but he might have used it as part of an experiment when he visited Tesla at some point. Let's say he used the machine, nothing appeared to happen, then he went outside and there was his duplicate wandering around.

As to the difference in personalities, we don't know how long ago this possible duplication happened. They would have been the same at the time of duplication, but could have developed differently from that point onward.

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But what doesn't make sense about that is why WOULD the other develope differently? It doesn't seem the two separated from each other at all so they mustn't have had too many different experiences. I mean, if I had a duplicate of me around, he'd be interested in the same women, be friends with the same people, react the way I would unless something really tragic happened to him that I never experienced before I was duplicated which doesn't seem to be the case in the movie.

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Just saw this on DVD last week (read the book about a year or so ago though). Really good movie.

Anyway, earlier in the thread people were commenting that they didn't like using Jackman as his own double. Personally I loved this idea because it was Nolan following the precepts of the film and putting the "secret" of Borden in plain sight by using a similar technique with Angiers.

Nolan did about as good as could be expected with the Borden twin angle but it was the weakest part of the film for me because there is no easy way to film around it without casting a different actor. The shots were way too fleeting for a character as important as Fallon which clues the audience early on that something is up. And it's worse for anyone interested in movies if, like me, you can't help but identify actors/actresses when they appear and if you've seen them before which won't work with Fallon.

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I rewatched it last night and during the "explanation" scene it is Hugh Jackman's character that says "brothers" upon being shot by "Fallon." I think the film's implication here is that Alfred and Fallon are brothers. They actually care about each other, whereas Jackman plans to drown 100 duplicates of himself in the name of the the Prestige.

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Watched The Prestige again tonight. This was my first home viewing-having only seen it once theatrically.

I enjoyed it a bit more and caught more this time around. I was less bothered by Angier's double...

Michael Caine was terrific as usual.

Solid film. Sometimes the dialogue was a bit hard to hear so I used the subtitles some.

8/10

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Here's the mistake you're making in your assumption. Jackman did'nt go to America looking for a cloning machine, he went looking for a teleporter, the "cloning" was an accidental byproduct of the research, but, with clever thinking, worked just as well.

As for the twin argument, Jackman, after being shot, says "a twin?" but that does'nt necessarily mean it was so. It most likely was a twin but I, personally, at first, thought that Bale had made a copy of himself just as Jackman did with the Tesla. However, instead of killing him, he treated him like a brother and instead they crafted the ultimate magic trick together.

Now, why they did'nt simply both play their own roles whenever they desired (there did'nt seem to be any real need for either to sleep with each others women) is still somewhat of a mystery to me.

There does'nt seem to be any good reason why Alfred could'nt be Alfred and Fallon could'nt be Fallon whenever they needed to be. I understand they decided to each play their respective roles for certain periods of time, but when they use the trick to seduce women, that's breaking the rules, so why not break them when more important things are at stake?

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Remember when they went to see the old Chinese man and one of the Bale twins said the old man was playing a part, that he was always in character. He said he couldnt be a frail old man and do the things he did. The twins were in character, playing the part of one guy all the time. If ANYONE knew the secret it was over!

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Saw this last night. For me, it was much better than THE ILLUSIONIST; although it still used a cheat in the form of an impossible duplicating machine. The explanation for the machine was glib, but at least they did try to explain it away by having Tesla make his pronouncement about science not working exactly the way you expect. It was just a glib way of saying, "I don't know how it works either, but it does".

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Yes, but the only reason to take the act to the exreme is because they've both agreed to live the ruse. If it is THAT important to play the part, why would they break the rules when they took the girl (the one that alfred married) out, and then the other twin was waiting in her house when she went inside? And if they were willing to break the rules in THAT way, why not break them when more important things are at stake?

You know like when the other twin is arguing with his wife?

It just seems like their way of life was kept intact more for the sake of the plot than to make any actual realistic sense.


Not that I mind, it's just interesting to discuss.

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I don't think having the other twin in the room was a "mistake". He's a magician and was trying to provide a suitable aura of mystery for his wife who would just write the whole thing up to a trick. It would only have been a mistake is she saw the two of them at the same time.

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My reaction was like yours, until I read this thread, which prompted me to did a little bit of reading about Tesla, and now I'm a lot happier about it - simply because the use of Tesla makes it a lot less contrived. From what I have read, it does seem that the machine is the type of thing that Tesla really did believe he could achieve. So it's lot like they pulled it out of nowhere. Knowing that made me a lot happier wth the story.

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Wasn't the Hugh Jackman at the end a duplicate himself? I assume the ORIGINAL Hugh Jackman was the first to drown when they did the first performance. So the Hugh Jackman at the end was already a duplicate of a duplicate of a duplicate ect... which is why I think Michael Caine had no problems in letting Christian Bale finish him off.

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Actually I think the original Hugh Jackman was the one that was shot by the copy when he first did the experiment in his home.

Although, original or not, an exact copy is just that, exact. They would both think they were the original and they'd both be right on a molecular level. No one would be able to prove which were which.

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Did the copy remain in the machine and was the original transported, or was it the other way around?

In any case, at the moment of duplication they were identical, so it doesn't matter which one was killed.

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My interpretation was that the original stayed where it was, and the copy reappeared. But that mainly just because it's the easiest explanation. The distinction between the original and the copy is pretty minimal.

I understand there is a clearer distinction between the original and the copy in the bok, so if anyone has read the book, feel free to offer comment.

(Sidenote: None of the shops here in New Zealand actually have the book in stock. So a while ago, I decided to order the book because I wanted to read it. Waited a month, finally it arrives. I buy it, put it in my briefcase. Later that day, I park somewhere for five minutes while I picked something else up, and in that time, some bastard stole my briefcase from my car. Including my brand-new copy of the The Prestige that I hadn't even had an opportunity to read the first page of. So unfortunately I can't offer any comment about how the original/copy worked in the book.)

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so it disappeared?!

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Like magic. Except not.

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Actually, I seem to remember there was a line in the movie where Hugh Jackman's character was discussing getting his hands dirty, with reference to the beginning of the movie where he was unwilling to kill the birds. Anyway, I seem to remember him mentioning the courage that it took not knowing whether he would be the one on the stage or the one in the tank, kind of implying there was a randomness to the whole process.

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The thing about that, which I love, is that from a certain perspective, every single time....he is both.

He is always the Prestige, and he is always the one in the tank. Since he starts as one individual with one mind, each time he steps into the machine he is wondering, "Which one will I be?". The machine then duplicates him exactly, and the one that is 'teleported' immediately thinks, "Thank God! Yes! I'm the Prestige", while the one who falls into the tank thinks, "My God! No! I'm going to die this time".

Also, the one who is 'living' at any given time after he started performing the tick has 'always' been the Prestige (from his perspective) and never fell in the tank. Though technically that is just his perspective. And he kept that perspective until Borden killed him. But the one who falls in the tank remembers every time before that in which he was 'The Prestige', except "this time" he drowns.

It's just really wild and I love it. Every time he does it he is the Prestige. And also every time he does it, he dies. And from his perspective, the one who lives is the only one who matters (and decides to keep doing it). Sure he probably feels differently about that each time he falls into the tank. But that perspective isn't learned by the one who lives, so he just keeps doing it.

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I would probably go with that explanation as well. It could be quite possible that his various copies are never made fully aware of how straightforward the process is. You do NOT get split into two, only a copy is spun off and it is impossible for you consciously to teleport into that second body, as many have theorized in regards to teleportation in Star Trek. Instead the original feels nothing, only to be lowered to his death. The original probably hates himself horribly every time for bieng so foolish every single time, and yet it is the decision he has made, never wanting to have to live to see a different person receive applause for something he 'performed'.

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I saw this for the first on BD and WOW! This movie is an instant classic. I loved it. I had seen the Illusionist few weeks before and I hated it, looks like a child’s play compared to The Prestige.

Many things could be discussed about this movie but there is one major issue and please explain this to me. What I loved about The Prestige was how it was based in reality and how everything was real. The Xerox machine put me off a little, so please explain to me why it was necessary and what it added to the story? It could have gone a reality-based route.

Oh, and please tell me that in real magic,..I mean real life, magicians don’t kill animal and if they did, what’s the history on that?

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Can I just announce, since I've already referred to it in this thread...

Two weeks to the day after my briefcase was stolen from my car, it was found in a neighbouring alleyway and returned today, contents intact - including the copy of The Prestige novel.

Just like The Transported Man, my briefcase disappeared from one place and reappeared somewhere else.

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Just watched this again...loved it even better the second time. It really is a film that rewards multiple viewings.

This time, I couldn't help feel a bit more...sorry for Angier at the end. I know this was a rivalry film, but I don't necessarily think the "better man" won. They both made lots of sacrifices (and lies) for their craft and I really came away this time thinking that Borden was the cold blooded murderer. Of course, if you think Angier set Borden up (something I am not sure the film supports) then you could say that Angier was a cold blooded murderer too. And you can't really say that Angier was a "murderer" during his prestige with the Tesla machine because that was really a suicide.

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I felt the EXACT same way. I really felt bad for Angier. I mean, he was even gonna fully support Borden's daughter.

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I felt sorry for him at the beginning, but by the end of the film I didn't feel sorry at all. He got what he deserved. Angier actually was the worst of the two because, after his wife was killed, he consistently tried to murder Borden. The same couldn't be said for Borden/Fallon. Borden/Fallon were responsible for the death of Angier's wife, but her death was an accident.....not a deliberately premeditated act.

On the other hand, Angier's actions were always premeditated. He tried to murder Borden during Borden's bullet catch trick. He also deliberately set up the Tesla created "Transported Man" trick with enough performances to draw Borden in. Angier full well knew that Borden would not be able to resist his desire to discover Angier's secret behind the trick, since it was well established that both men were always after each others secrets. IIRC, Angier even stated that Borden would show up and try to discover the method behind the trick. Angier could not predict exactly when Borden would show up, so he had to do enough performances to ensure that Borden would be unable to resist the lure that was being laid out: yet, another indication of Angier's premeditation.

What makes Angier a murderer is the fact that he shows up at the prison to gloat about his "victory", thereby revealing to his rival, and indirectly to the audience, that he is alive. At that point, Angier could have saved Borden's life by revealing that he was, in fact, alive; however, he chooses not to do so, thereby condemning an innocent man to death. To add to the heinous nature of his crime, he also humiliates the condemned man by revealing that he is stealing the condemned man's daughter.

In light of all that what is the nature of Borden's crimes? Through hubris, he is involved in the accidental death of Angier's wife: a death that Angier's wife could partially be held responsible for. Borden's other "crimes" mainly consist of attempting to disrupt Angier's act and, in the process, humiliate Angier. Never once does Borden actually try to murder Angier. The same could not be said for his opponent. Borden is only driven to murder by Angier himself. Borden's killing of Angier is purely an act of retribution for the death of his brother at Angier's hands.


I don't know why anyone would feel bad for Angier. So what, if he was going to support Borden's daughter? The fact remains that there was no need for him to support Borden's daughter, because Borden was innocent of the crime for which he was condemned. Angier's prison conversation with "Borden" reveals that Borden's daughter was merely a prize to Angier. She was the memento that would act as a daily reminder of Angier's total victory over his hated rival. Angier didn't care a whit about the kid. He only cared about what the kid represented to him. All in all, Angier was a low-life scumbag. He was so determined to get rid of Borden that he was even willing to murder himself again and again in order to accomplish his revenge.

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Edwin:

Angier was certainly a scumbag. Not sure whether he was a murderer, because the film doesn't really support the notion that Angier set Borden up. Oh, sure, he never said anything after Borden got caught, which makes him culpable in some sense, but not sure that makes him a murderer.

Borden, on the other hand, DID murder Angier at the end. Even if it was an act of retribution, it was still murder.

At the end of the day, they were both rivals...not sure either one deserved to survive.

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But you make it sound as if Borden was innocent. Borden was just as much of a scumbag as Angier. And this is where it gets confusing as there are really TWO Bordens. The nasty one that was hanged deserved everything he got. He wouldn't stop inticing Angier by twice damaging his show... There is nothing to support that Angier was actually going to kill and shoot Borden. He was angry and close to doing it... but he didn't. Angier shot his fingers but he was grieving the loss of his wife and Borden showed absolutely no remorse for what had happened. Angier had even warned him to NOT tie his knot. After the shooting, Angier had begun to piece his life back together when Borden killed the bird during his show. It was Borden that kept Angier going. He might not have killed anyone but sometimes the manipulation is just as bad as the act.