Official Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray player thread - Page 4

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I'm guessing Dave's comment meant something along the lines of "Is it really going to happen?"

I can't knock him for not believing it until he sees it. But the fact Panasonic supplied an actual card to mail in and it's not "a mysterious Panasonic insider says..." inclines me to take them at their world.

But I've been wrong before.

Is it true the Pioneer player isn't going to offer DD True HD or DTS HD? As often ast they've delayed it, you'd think they could pack in everything.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Panny has always been good about firmware updates for their DVD players... they started doing that before it was the "in thing" with electronic consumer gear. So there's a good manufacturer history there with providing updates... and yeah, the card gives me confidence that the particular issue of advanced audio is one they are going to do right.


agreed. I've heard reports from those who've spoken with the Pioneer reps that they just don't understand why enthusiasts care about these new features. Let's hope they've managed to "get it" and are delaying the player to incorportate the goods...

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

It was 10 years ago that I picked up a Panasonic HiFi 4head VCR (using scholarship money to pay for it!), and that puppy runs as well today as the day I got it. It was the only player I could find at the time that was actually built in Japan and didn't have an ultra-noisy picture. I guess it had come in 2nd to (surprisingly, at the time, a Samsung I believe) in an electronics magazine test. Oh, the old days.

Both Panasonic and Pioneer have earned my respect though, as I bought a used Pioneer LD/DVD combo unit that still works great (anyone else admire the raw power of a LD player motor), and the the $70 Pioneer DVD players I picked up at Wal-Mart a couple years ago have ended up my favorite players (but only because I let the iScan do the de-interlacing).

I'm definitely keeping an eye out for the next-gen Pannys, in hopes they will only improve and not subtract any features (in which case I go looking for markdowns).

And I'll hope Pioneer gets it together too. How can they be "Elite" if they don't have all the bells and whistles? And here's a company that's been well known for AUDIO gear!

But then there's the PS3 that could be too great a value to pass up. But can I live without lossless audio (if it doesn't end up offering it through analog means) considering the amount of time I watch movies vs. play games? Then again, it's not like it's some crappy game system. Aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

That is what I was wondering if it was actually going to happen. Panasonic would not have been my first choice for a Blu-ray player. So if I did end up buying it I would be really pissed off if that upgrade did not happen.

I might just be looking into the Panny after all not entirely sure yet.


I believe that one of the videos from this years CEDIA show included the Pioneer Blu-ray player. And if I remember correctly the Pioneer rep was asked about HDMI 1.3 availability. And the reply was something like "oh you guys are all about the new codex's". Not sure why you wouldn't want to include the newest technology for a cutting edge product? Sony seems to be taking the same route with there own player. No internal decoding and no HDMI 1.3. I thought thats why these players where being pushed back so many times. That they where looking to do it right and offer these technologies. But at this time I don't think the Pioneer is going to offer anything but 1080p video also including mp3 and mpeg video playback off of your pc network. Not sure what other new features the Pioneer will have but it seems to be missing the really important ones!

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I understand your position, but seeing as how there is an actual card in the box informing everyone about the firmware upgrade to support these codecs, I think it is safe to assume that it will indeed happen, otherwise Panasonic is setting themselves up for some serious bad will and perhaps even a class action lawsuit.


Not to mention they only have 5.1 and not 7.1 analogue outputs. That is ridiculous, IMO. The Panasonic is looking like the way to go for me.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

That is one of the reasons I am rethinking this matter and may end up getting a Panasonic. The other alternative is to wait for 2nd generation Bluray player with HDMI 1.3 to come out. I am planing on buying a next generation reciever anyway. One with Dolby True HD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding available. That will just mean that I will allready have a pre-exsisting Bluray library once I buy a player, if I decided to put it off and wait for HDMI 1.3.

I am just very impatient and want's my 1080p precious now, I must have the precious!

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I understand, believe me, but I have no plans to buy a new A/VR anytime soon. My Sony DA4ES is just fine, and it has two sets of analogue multichannel inputs - a 5.1 and a 7.1, plus I have a Zektor 3x1 5.1 multichannel switcher. All I need is the player to do the decoding. Maybe in another 2 or 3 years I'll be ready for a new receiver.

Myyeeeehhhh PREh-Shussssssssssss....

BTW, I just pulled the trigger on the Panny at Abt Electronics, but they are out of stock already. It's showing 7 to 14 days, but we all know it could be far longer than that.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I am in a different boat myself, I have had my current Yamaha RX-V995 since about late 1997. This reciever has no assignable digital or video inputs. It has no HD compatible video and only has one 5.1 analog input which is being used for my Toshiba HD-A1 currently. It was being used for my Denon DVD-2200 for multi-channel SACD and DVD-A. I can not justify spending money on a current model reciever without HDMI 1.3 and without the advanced audio decoder. I have no doubt that the decoder in the recievers will be superior IMHO to the decoder that is in any of the HD players right now. I might even go as far to say that even the 2nd gen players will not use the quality of decoder that the recievers will be using. Granted you get a good quality reciever that is not the bottom of the barrel model. For me the best thing to do is to wait one more year and upgrade my reciever as I will not be upgrading it for maybe another 10 years.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Hey Dave,

good points. something to consider however is that there the term "decoder" for advanced audio is being used in a slightly different context than they way it applied to DVD players with "audio decoders" built in.

The reason is that DVD players with audio decoders are generally not only "decoding" (decompressing) the DD/DTS in the DVD palyer, but are also converting the digital signal to analog.

That last step is really where your comments apply: That a receiver or dedicated audio decoder can sound much better than the "decoder" in a DVD player etc.

However, in regards to HDMI 1.1 and 1.2, the "decoder" in a BD or HD DVD player can merely unzip (decompress) the lossless DD or DTS audio and then send this as LPCM to the outboard audio decoder/receiver for converting to analog. That's a sort of in-between that wouldn't really have an audiophile compromise since the outboard audio gear is still doing the d/a conversion.

Using the 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs of a BD or HD DVD player decoding lossless audio formats could potentially, as you say, sound less favorable compared to a high-end audiophile receiver/decoder.

BTW, one area where sending the *compressed* advanced audio stream over HDMI 1.3 *might* sound better than going LPCM over HDMI 1.1/1.2 is with HD DVD which might monkey with the original auido signal to mix in menu-beeps and secondary audio tracks etc. which, IMO, is a step away from an pure, audiophile path. I don't think the BD format has the same issue with mixing audio streams but I could be wrong.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Oh, I hear you. I don't know about the quality of the decoders though. I also use a Denon DVD-2200 universal for DVD-A playback - I have a Sony XA9000ES I use for SACD/CD playback and a Samsung DVD-HD931 upscaling player via DVI for DVD playback - and to me, at least in comparison to the Sony DA4ES, the Denon has much better sounding DACs and analogue stage. Remember, it's not all about the DACs either, it's the analogue stage, jitter, all sorts of things. Of course, as you said, your A/VR is nearly ten years old, so it's probably time for it to go. I've only had mine for 4 years, and I am not getting rid of it. I don't even use mine for video switching, just audio, so HDMI 1 point whatever in an A/V receiver is no big deal to me, at least not at this point in time.

From a purely spec point of view, these first-gen players seem to be coming out with pretty good audio sections, so I'm not worried. Isn't a big part of the Blu-ray propaganda about the audio quality anyway? It would make no sense for them to put out players with poor audio. So farm according to most reviews, the panasonic sounds great which is why I will probably replace my Denon 2200 with the Panny for DVD-A duty and stick the Denon on eBay.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Hmm. This is another area where it might pay to not cheap out and keep an eye on manufactureres who might do so.

The Panasonic has earned favorable reviews in the audio domain, even regarding its DVD-Audio ability, meaning it may have some decent D/A converters built in. The Toshiba HD-DVD player is supposed to be built like a brick ****house too. This could be an area that will be sacrificed down the road to lower the costs of players while keeping profits high. Especially with the industry's apparent attitude that audio is quite secondary. Hopefully Panasonic will stick to the trend they've started for a while, at least long enough to make most everybody happy by incorporating HDMI 1.3 in their next-gen player without exchanging anything else for lower-end components.

I don't know how soon we'll see semi-affordable next-gen receivers with all this decoding either, as these advanced audio codecs only exist in the HD realm, which hasn't caught on yet. (Remember when you could say, "All right! This one does DTS!"?) I can see a few high-end models will cater to the audiophiles and early adopters, but I would imagine these would go for big bucks. Do-everything receivers finally reached a mass market thanks to DVD catching on. There isn't much incentive to go beyond what's out there just yet. Can't have the egg without the chicken, can't have the chicken without the egg........

Mmm. Chicken and eggs. Sorry; it's almost dinnertime.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

But, as I've commented before, this is not necessarily a given. It all depends on the quality of the DACs and the quality of the analogue stage and so forth in each unit. I have heard many players hold their own or do better than high end A/V receivers. I have yet to hear any outboard DAC better the performance of my Sony XA9000ES playing back through its own in-box DACs and analogue section, and that includes Sony's flagship A/V receiver that decodes DSD via FireWire. My Denon DVD-2200 sounds better to my ears playing back through its analogue outs than through my DA4ES's DACs, but I do use the DA4ES's DACs when playing DVD movies so I can do some post processing, which I like for movies, but not for music and it does sound good.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I am under the impression that HDMI 1.3 had to be used in order to output Dolby True HD or DTS-HD to a reciever in order for it to be able to decode it and turn it into a analog signal? If that is not the case then I will not worry about what ver of HDMI the player has. But I thought HDMI 1.3 was necisary in order to pass the lossless audio to an external decoder. While the Panasonic having 7.1 analog outs is great. I would like to have better processing down the road when I upgrade my current reciever and use it to do the decoding/processing.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

GoldenRedux,

Absolutely. It all depends. My outboard d/a converter by Audio Alchemy still sounds better than any stand-alone CD player *or* receiver's DACs I've heard. Some players have better dacs... and some surround decoders have betterr dacs... as you say it depends.

I typically don't think of "receivers"... even very good ones, when I think of high-end audiophile D/A conversion. No Sony, Denon, or Pioneer receiver even comes close to touching the sound of my Alchemy d/a converter.

But There is some proceed and lexicon gear that does.

Dave,

HDMI 1.3 is necessary to send advanced audio codecs in *compressed form* to an outboard processor. But if the player can extract the compressed bitstream to LPCM, this LPCM can be sent over either HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 to an outobard processor. In both these modes the processor would be performing the d/a conversion.

Is that clear?

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

NOW I finally know what's going on! Thanks David B! I kept hearing different stories of how the audio was processed/transferred with these formats but they contradicted each other.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions? > So to be able to use the HDMI cable for analog audio originating from the receiver, one has to find a receiver that includes DACs for its HDMI input (& not just switching capabilities) correct? Is there a logo or something that indiactes this rather major capability?

Second: regarding bass management in the HDMI/receiver combination above, does the player perform B.M. duties.......or does the receiver do that?

btw: one scenario that I bet could confuse HT newbies: on receivers so equipped, when they see the "5.1 LPCM" indicator light up on the receiver's display, I bet some will think this means TrueHD or DTS-HD is being heard, rather than just decompressed "regular" Dolby/DTS. And the world of audio becomes even murkier...........

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

right.


A good question. Most likely the receiver/processor. This is one reason I don't think that going analog is ideal unless you really plan (and have a processor with "bypass") to keep the signal 100% analog the rest of the way.

If you feed a gorgeous analog signal into a processor and then decide to apply bass management or EQ for room balancing, your signal instantly gets converted to digital... processed... and then converted back to analog all over again with the processor's own dacs anyway.


Actually, most BD and HD DVD players will probably leave traditional DTS and DD signals alone in compressed form since those signals area allowed over all forms of HDMI and SPDIF digital and all processors can deal with them natively. The only unfolding to LPCM that I'm aware of with the Toshiba A1, for instance, is with Dolby Digital + and True HD tracks. Regular DD/DTS is left alone in compressed bitstream form even over HDMI.

You're right... it if all got decompressed (which a player could do if set up that way) it would all look the same as far as the indicator lights on the processor.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

That's true, receivers aren't very good outboard DACs, IMO, but I have yet to hear any outboard DAC outperform my XA9000ES either. I've never really been big on outbaord DACs as a given for better sound, espcecially not when you're already talking about a player which itslef may cost $2000 or more! Maybe it all comes down to personal preference in the end, because it is all so subjective.

There is an interesting point that was brought up about bass management. I'm wondering what kind of bass management the Panny offers inside the player itself? Surely it must have an option for setting the speaker sizes as well as time alignment? Maybe a crossover setting? This is pretty much standard in players such as this today (well, not crossover). I would expect that, given the Panasonic does DVD-A as well, that its bass management is pretty good.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Yes, I'd be interested in this info. too. A lot of receivers (at least mine) can't do any bass management when the 5.1/7.1 inputs are used (you know, now that I think of it, I think my player does say "7.1" when in that mode; I must have more inputs than I thought--not the space for the speakers though!). My receiver is at the mercy of the bass management of my SACD player when I play that disc. Which is unfortunate, since it's bass management doesn't work on 2.0 sound. Worked fine for multichannel though.

So, Ben, any info you'd like to share about the Panny's capabilities in this regard would be very helpful to those of us who would be relying on the player (or it's successors') processing abilities. I would think it would have to have speaker size/bass management, distance, all that jazz.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I've checked the .pdf file for the Panasonic user's guide online, and there is built-in bass management, called the 'Speaker presence and size' setting. It has all the usual things - the speaker size can be set for large or small and the subwoofer can be set as on or off. Unfortunately, according to the manual, the cross-over setting seems to be 100Hz, which is way too high, IMO, but it's better than nothing.

There is also time alignment for all speakers called the 'Delay time' setting and a 'Channel balance' setting, which I presume is to set the levels. The 'Delay time' setting is a bit convoluted as it doesn't let you set the speaker distances, but, rather, you must set the actual delay time in milliseconds, determined obviously by speaker distances. They provide some sort of table for you to make the calculation with.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

I will say one thing, looking at the diagrams in the Panasonic manual for setting up your speakers and adjusting the speaker settings, it is no wonder to me that the average consumer is at a complete loss and almost completely clueless when it comes to these formats and understanding what they are and how to actually use them - the thing looks like you need an engineering degree!

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Couldn't be any worse than the manual of my friend's Sony theater-in-a-box. Some of the stuff in there was actually plain WRONG. It confused me so much I had to sit down and think about it and re-write things to what they SHOULD have said, even though it had no real bearing on me. But the fact it made no sense made me batty.

100 Hz crossover; yes, too low, but the same as my receiver's lowest built-in crossover anyway. At least I know my speakers are operating well within their limits. And I think I had to do the calculations with my Philips SACD too. Why they can't just do them for you and let you set it at distance I don't know. But it's a small matter.

Thanks for the info. Nice that Panasonic already has everything online.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

My speakers all go well below 100Hz, so I will be setting them for all large plus sub, which is how they are set now anyway on all my players.

My Sony XA9000ES SACD/CD player, Denon DVD-2200 universal, Pioneer DV-563a universal, and Sony DA4ES A/V all allow you to set the actual speaker distances from the listening position and they apply the delay. Calculating delay time based on distance from the centre speaker, or whatever Panasonic is making you do, is not user friendly at all. Fortunately, I can handle it, but I'm sure most average consumers would be running for the hills.

You're welcome.

It is nowhere to be found on their U.S. site. Oddly, it has been up on their U.K. site for quite some time, and the player hasn't even launched in Europe yet. Weird.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Thanks for the info guys.

Why Panasonic would make an owner calculate millseconds --> feet seems silly. I own one of their Technics SA-DA8 receivers - a five year old model - and even its delay system uses feet increments.

I hope this player also applies it b.m. settings to dvd-audio signals. Because I have yet to read of any of their SD dvd players *ever* doing this. FYI: my Pioneer DV-656A dvd-audio player, MSRP $330 in 2003, doesn't have b.m. for dvd-audio either. FYI2: While surround music mixers don't much like any b.m. used with their tracks & recommend full-range speakers all the way around for 5.1 music - "full-range" in their minds going down to 40Hz, not 20 - I know not everyone can or wants to do that.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Ben - Did you ever get the two promo discs yet? The flyer said it would be received (or mailed?) in a week.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Both of the universal players I have do BM for DVD-A: Denon DVD-2200 universal, Pioneer DVD-563a universal. That is what the speaker size settings are for. Of course, neither of them allow you to specify your crossover, nor does this Panasonic. I also have a JVC DVD-A/V player and it also does BM for DVD-A. What a lot of players don't do is BM for SACD, but the Denon and Pioneer do, and so does my Sony XA9000ES SACD player. The thing is, when the Denon does BM on SACD, it converts to PCM. I'm not sure what the Pioneer does.

This is very true. I do a lot of surround mixing myself, and I always have to make the decision whether or not I should apply my own crossover, or leave it to the user.

Personally on my playback systems, I can go full range on all speakers + sub, but I know that many people cannot, especially those with HTiBs. Sometimes, even if you can go full range on all speakers, it may not be optimum, because you then get into distortions and phasing and the like. Ah, the world of audio - always a challenge.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

My mains and surrounds are rated for 45 Hz and the center 50Hz I believe.

What I always wondered (and this is OT, but since we've casually drifted this way anyway), does anyone know how low the signals for the main, center, and surround speakers typically drop on 5.1 tracks (mostly referring to movies here)? I used to run my system on "large" with the sub just taking the .1 signal for 5.1 tracks, but it actually sounded a little fuller to me when I switched to "small". Don't know if I was really losing some of the range or if it was phasing-related. I was afraid plus mode would over-exaggerate a certain portion of the bass, so I've avoided the sub plus mode (no, my system doesn't disable the sub when you put the speakers on large, just doesn't divert from the mains). I'm guessing there really isn't any guideline and the ranges vary widely mix-to-mix.

Re: Panasonic DMP-BD10

Bingo.