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post #31 of 51
9/15/06 at 12:09pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

I made the mistake of getting into a discussion of evolution with a pastor once, using fossil record as evidence to support my viewpoint. His explanation was simple - when God created mountains he put fossils in them. End of discussion.

That learned me real good.
post #32 of 51
9/15/06 at 12:21pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Well, you've participated in enough of those for me to know you are being facetious (the was my first clue).
I think you know where I was going with that, but just for the record, I am very scientifical and do not subscribe to the "scientists know nothing" mindset.

Yes, I was mentioning the flat earth belief to show how bad it would be if we never revised what we believed in according to new information.
post #33 of 51
9/15/06 at 12:39pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
I think you know where I was going with that, but just for the record, I am very scientifical and do not subscribe to the "scientists know nothing" mindset.

Yes, I was mentioning the flat earth belief to show how bad it would be if we never revised what we believed in according to new information.

Oh, I know where you were going. It's just that the ole "flat earth" thing is usually used by the "scentists know nothing" crowd to display how wrong scientists are today simply because they got it wrong before. "Flat Earth", "Non-Copernican Solar System" and "Einstein Never Believed in Quantum Mechanics" - The Big Three among the science detractors.

Little do they know that each one is a specious argument at best.
post #34 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:05pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Turnbull
...But science as a discipline does NOT in anyway promote or allow suppression of information. The scientific method is all about testing, reviewing, updating hypotheses and sharing information all in the name of honing in towards a theory that stands up. A proper scientist wants others to poke holes in their theories because it leads to better understanding in the end...
Sure, science as it's defined, not as it's always practiced. Same with religion. I think the fact that these are two man-made institutions (sorry to step on anyone's toes, no harm intended) grounded on the decisions of men makes them susceptible to politics and the "passions of the time." This is proved out on both fronts often enough.

I think we are on the same page where that's concerned. Unfortunately, I didn't include an explanation in my apparent condemnation.

In my eyes, science IS the new religion. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I appreciate science as I appreciate religion, which is to say, I'm "in favor" of both.
post #35 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:14pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
"Einstein Never Believed in Quantum Mechanics"

Why is it necessary to believe "in" quantum mechanics? It is only necessary to understand the mathematical apparatus well enough to model the physical world.
post #36 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:22pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

You know, folks, threads like this happen.

I've not been on the boards much the past two weeks. Been pretty busy at work and off work. Trusting, all along, that things go smoothly here at HTF.

And so what do I find upon taking some time to browse here? A thread that seems -- seems -- to be breaking a very basic rule here.

Fact is, we're talking religion here -- worse, religion versus science, based on a news story from the U.K.

But the conversation seems to be going well. However, I will take this little matter up with my colleagues and see if there's a consensus about what to do with this thread. Talk to you all in a little while. Meanwhile, be nice.

Thank you.
post #37 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:22pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyErwin
Why is it necessary to believe "in" quantum mechanics? It is only necessary to understand the mathematical apparatus well enough to model the physical world.

Don't ask me, it's the non-scientists who keep bringing that argument up. I always assumed it was Einstein not wanting to give credit to that Nazi, Heisenberg.
post #38 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:25pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
I'm "in favor" of both.
Me too. I don't claim to understand scientific facts, so I have to have a little 'blind faith' when agreeing with what scientists claim, just as I have blind faith in what a relion claims.

But on that same note, there are some scientific claims that I find a bit hard to swallow...the same goes for religion. They can definitely co-exist.
post #39 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:26pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
In my eyes, science IS the new religion.
I disagree. I see a big difference between the two. Religion makes pronouncements that are “set in stone”, ie “eternal”. Science is always willing to come to new conclusions, based on new evidence and sound reasoning, which is the complete opposite. Unfortunately, I’ve see the “know nothing” anti-science types claim that a reliance on reason is itself somehow a “religion”, which is self contradictory.
post #40 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:29pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I disagree. I see a big difference between the two. Religion makes pronouncements that are “set in stone”, ie “eternal”. Science is always willing to come to new conclusions, based on new evidence and sound reasoning, which is the complete opposite. Unfortunately, I’ve see the “know nothing” anti-science types claim that a reliance on reason is itself somehow a “religion”, which is self contradictory.

It is not contradictory, it's just that Western Scientific Thought is incapable of grasping the concepts needed to understand the thought processes (or some other New Age BS ).
post #41 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:35pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
it's just that Western Scientific Thought is incapable of grasping the concepts needed to understand the thought processes
Ah, I see, Jeff...so the perpetual motion machine (or the faith healer) WILL work if I just change my thought processes....
post #42 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:44pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
But on that same note, there are some scientific claims that I find a bit hard to swallow...
Like?

Not picking on you, just curious.

--
H
post #43 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:47pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
Science is always willing to come to new conclusions, based on new evidence and sound reasoning, which is the complete opposite [of religion]...
I think you'd agree that the religions we practice today are significantly different from the way those same religions were practiced in the past. I think that goes a long way into proving that religions change with the times as well. Even in the short history of our country (America), we've seen a marked evolution of thought within religious institutions.

Religion is grounded on a set of unchanging truths.
Science is grounded on a set of unchanging laws.

What allows both to stay relevant is that the interpretations drawn from both are allowed to change.


(Please forgive me, I'm writing this in a rush, but I hope I at least didn't shortchange my argument too much by being so broad. :p )
post #44 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:49pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

I love a good debate. Cool thread. So far so good and all that stuff. But i bet it gets locked just because someone will wander in, bad things will get said, and bam!

Have you guys ever seen or rather heard of the fossil footprints. In TX if i recall. They are of a "man" hunting a 3 toed dinosaur. You could say the footprints were made millennia apart if not for the fact some of the mans prints are inside the dinosaur ones. Clearly he was hunting the dino. Very interesting stuff out in this big world.

Oh, and ive always wanted to say this Hi Jack! My favorite line from Airplane. I know, i am sure its an old line, but a classic.
post #45 of 51
9/15/06 at 1:57pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
I think you'd agree that the religions we practice today are significantly different from the way those same religions were practiced in the past.
If by “practiced” you mean matters of ceremony and ritual, there have been changes. Fundamental tenets, no. Religion has had to deal with changes in our understanding of the nature of the Universe (brought about by science, not religion), but the opposite is never true (science changing its conclusions because of religion).

Quote:
Have you guys ever seen or rather heard of the fossil footprints. In TX if i recall. They are of a "man" hunting a 3 toed dinosaur.
If I recall correctly, skeptical analysis showed that was faked.

Edit: More on that:

Quote:
The next segment featured Carl Baugh, who talked about the supposed human footprints found alongside dinosaur tracks at the Paluxy River near Glen Rose, Texas. The voice-over introduced him as archaeologist Carl Baugh, but the on-screen title referred to him as anthropologist Carl Baugh. In real life, however, Baugh is best known as Reverend Carl Baugh. Baugh claimed some of the Paluxy trackways include 16-inch human footprints, 12 in a series, alternating left-right-left-right, the right distance apart... No mention was made of the painstaking research performed by Glen Kuban, Ronnie Hastings, Laurie Godfrey and others a decade ago, which showed conclusively that these trackways are made by dinosaurs. When mud fills in the toes of a fresh tridactyl dinosaur print, the resultant track can look similar to a human's. Some of the alleged human prints belong in the same left-right series as obvious dinosaur tracks. Kuban and associates also found color indications of dinosaur toes in tracks which were supposedly human. At least these tracks are not obvious fakes, unlike Baugh's next bit of supposedly most compelling evidence which was discussed: the Burdick Print. This and similar prints first appeared in the 1930s. They are clearly suspect: the features (toes, heel, etc.) are abnormally shaped, and much too well delineated. The Burdick print looks nothing like a real imprint of a foot in the mud, and bears little resemblance to human anatomy (even for a supposed giant).
post #46 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:03pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
Like?

Not picking on you, just curious.
Free Energy...

Again, I don't claim to know a ton about science, but I find free energy a bit hard to accept.


EDIT: I just re-red the post that you quoted me on...were you thinking that I was finding it hard to accept valid/solidly grounded scientific claims?
post #47 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:10pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
If by “practiced” you mean matters of ceremony and ritual, there have been changes. Fundamental tenets, no.
Same with science.

Quote:
Religion has had to deal with changes in our understanding of the nature of the Universe (brought about by science, not religion),

Science is the reason there are Catholics who now support abortion? Is science the reason many in the Protestant church wished to outlaw slavery, though the bible is frought with acceptance of the practice? What about polygamy? Was science responsible for its outlaw?

Quote:
but the opposite is never true (science changing its conclusions because of religion).
We're probably in agreement that that is not the function of religion.

If I have your overall theme right, that science has, in the past at least, directly disproved some claim in the Bible, or Torah, or Koran, I'd have to disagree. If you are saying that as a result of scientific endeavors, claims made by people interpretting the Bible have been forced to change, then I'd agree.

But I don't see that as a condemnation of religion. Instead, it seems like a strength and further proof that both institutions are perfectly compatible.
post #48 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:13pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Hey thanks Robert. That was interesting. So few people even know of it, real or not. I remember reading about it as a kid in the early 70s. That was my Bigfoot, Lock Ness, and Shick/Sun films phase.
post #49 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:22pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew markworthy
So please don't automatically equate organised religion with ignorance and a blinkered mentality.

Sadly, I think Americans are beginning to be equated with ignorance and a blinkered mentality. Most people in the US probably wouldn't argue with what he's trying to do.

Link [New Scientist] Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals: true or false?

Quote:
This simple question is splitting America apart, with a growing proportion thinking that we did not descend from an ancestral ape. A survey of 32 European countries, the US and Japan has revealed that only Turkey is less willing than the US to accept evolution as fact.
Quote:
...the percentage of people in the country [US] who accept the idea of evolution has declined from 45 in 1985 to 40 in 2005

Only 40% of Americans believe we evolved from an earlier species? I guess we're all members of the HTF! What country agreed with the statement the most? 85% of Iceland agreed [NY Times]

This discussion came up during my fantasy football draft of all places. There's nothing like drinking beer and discussing points of view like this!
post #50 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:37pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg*go
Sadly, I think Americans are beginning to be equated with ignorance and a blinkered mentality. Most people in the US probably wouldn't argue with what he's trying to do.

Link [New Scientist] Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals: true or false?




Only 40% of Americans believe we evolved from an earlier species? I guess we're all members of the HTF! What country agreed with the statement the most? 85% of Iceland agreed [NY Times]

This discussion came up during my fantasy football draft of all places. There's nothing like drinking beer and discussing points of view like this!
That's an intersting conclusion. Why not intrepret it that Americans are more scientific, only Turkey is moreso?

It's ironic that in a thread where it was mentioned that science isn't about blind faith, but a process to a truth, we have a quoted article from "The New Scientist" seemingly critical of Americans' lack of acceptance of a theory as fact.

If somone were to ask many of us if the theory of evolution was fact, I imagine a few thoughtful people would say, "No. Obviously it's not 'fact.' You just called it a theory."

As highly as I think of the theory that our forefathers were actually foreapes and the likelihood of its truth, it would be very unscientific of me to pronounce it as outright fact. No?

post #51 of 51
9/15/06 at 2:42pm

Re: Fossils Just Confuse People

OK, folks. Time up.

We are without question discussing religion (or, more precisely, religion versus science). Cannot go on, per HTF rules. Sorry. So go ahead and flood my PM box with angry messages.
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