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post #211 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
now those same critics of TOS fx are clamoring that the OLD shots look "realistic"? that's a huge paradox cause they said the fx sucked... but oh no, the new CG looks even worse? but that's what you'd expect from such a picky group.

Eh? I think you're conflating separate people. In any case, it's a well-known fact that photography of a real model gives a subtly different visual appearance than any electronically-generated effect, providing an increased sense of realism, regardless of how "realistic" it is.
My objection to the "new" effects is that they don't really accomplish anything, as the difference from the original shots is mostly minimal, and where departures are made they are not always for the better.
In particular, the "phaser blast" effect in Balance of Terror looked like an ellipse drawn in MS Paint, with a little milkiness effect superimposed on the centre — that being the only one which struck me as looking like a video game. Also, as I said, the planet effects look screwy (and the use of some NASA topographic model of Mars for the red planet in the opening sequence is a head-scratcher).

I've never really complained about the old effects, even at their worst (except the shadows in Spectre of the Gun, but that whole episode was so surreal that it hardly spoilt the mood). I just wanted a cleanup on the film elements and a HD transfer, and even watching in 480i DTV here, it's clear they did that.
post #212 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

WNBC in New York did indeed air Star Trek earlier than scheduled, as I had set my alarm to wake me up five minutes before it was going to start. I am in Oklahoma, but I receive the HD feed of WNBC via DirecTV. When my alarm went off, I was watching the last 5 minutes of the episode rather than the beginning. What i did see, however, was stunning. Although they didn't broadcast in HD, they did upconvert their signal as they always do for non-HD material on the HD channel. Colors were more vibrant than ever, the image was even cleaner than my DVDs, and aside from one shot of the Enterprise that looked like a cardboard cut out that started off far away and just scaled larger (just like the old Enterprise did), I thought the CGI was very faithful to the original. People bitch because they think they're going to dramatically change things, and those same people bitch when they don't. What is this, a Star Wars thread???

The edits in the show were, however, quite jarring, since I pretty much know every line in that episode by heart. It makes me not be able to wait for the eventual HD-DVD releases a couple of years from now with uncut episodes. Bring it on!
post #213 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Maybe people bitched because the effects were so precisely aping the old effects that it was unnecessary. You could argue the original didn't look real with the old model shots and now you can argue that it just looks like low res CGI. So they look unreal in different ways. Yes, the old show might have had a dated 60's feel to the effects, (2001 was also shot back in the 60's interestingly) but these new CGI FX are hardly state of the art. They look like an X-box game to me. They look like they were done in the 90's...
And yes, you could say that Paramount can't spend that much money but think how much they'll charge for these eps. on the new DVD sets and HD sets.... And if you want to see TREK ever in HD or at least uncut in HD or with the new FX, you will have to buy the new sets...
If they are ever shown in HD, (not in my area...) they certainly won't be uncut...
post #214 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Hard to form an opinion when I only saw 5 minutes of the show, thanks to New York's WNBC screwing the pooch on this one. It'll have to wait til next week.

BTW, I, for one, think the TOS DVDs are spectacular. Few 40-year old shows look this good, and I'd be happy to watch those DVDs for the next 40 years.
post #215 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
The color of the Command uniforms were green, not gold. The bad prints for decades have made everyone think the were gold.

That's not the only thing that was perceived differently because of bad color timing. The actual hull color of the Enterprise 12 ft model was actually light blue, as well. However, when I built a model of the Enterprise many years ago, I painted her hull battleship grey, because that's how I saw her on TV (and, yes, I knew then it should be light blue, but that didn't seem right to my mind). Regardless of the actual color of the material, command will always be gold, sciences blue, and engineering red to me.....
post #216 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Just my 2 cents but IMHO, the old shot here even though grainy looks more believeable to me than the new. They could easily have cleaned up the dirt, specs digitally the way they did with the live action shots. The original model had a real motion blur because it was a real model with an actual camera move. The new CGI has a simulated motion blur and to me, looks less convincing. And check out the deflector dish. Looks totally flat and 2-D in the new. And the glowy nacelles look too cartoony for me...

but just my opinion... which people can agree or disagree with. But people here saying, "all you who think this are crazy!" or "people here who prefer the old are smoking some serious..." don't seem to understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I never say people here are WRONG who disagree with me but some people here can't grasp that concept...



post #217 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
BTW, I, for one, think the TOS DVDs are spectacular. Few 40-year old shows look this good, and I'd be happy to watch those DVDs for the next 40 years.

I am right there with ya, Sam. I have the 40 disc set (In Ric's awesome 5-year mission DVD cover art), and I have no intention of even "upgrading" to the season sets. To my understanding, the only improvements there are slightly better PQ, due to encoding improvements (the exact same prints cleaned up for the 40-disc set were used), and the inclusion of a couple-second shot in sick bay in "The Tholian Web". I have seen, to date, exactly two people complain about some vertical instability on "The City on the Edge of Forever", but that never bothered me (I watch on a 65" screen); I always considered it insignificant. Like you, I am perfectly happy with, what are IMO, pristine versions of TOS....

Dave, based on your screen shots, I guess the hull does actually look kinda light blue..... It's just ingrained in my brian cell that it should be grey....? Man, I'm getting old...
post #218 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

It's interesting that the color is this different.

post #219 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

The real colors of the Enterprise 12 ft model, before the Smithsonian had restored it, is gray and some of the grays tend to the green. Very subtle green. If I understand it correctly, the reason it looked blue on TV was that it was filmed in front of a bluescreen and the blue color reflected a bit onto the model.

The new DVD's took those Enterprise shots and actually desaturated the color so it looks gray now. If you look closely enough, you can see in some shots that the markings on the side of the engine nacelles have no red anymore. One rear quarter view shot that has a sliver of the engine dome showing has lost the redish glow.
post #220 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
The real colors of the Enterprise 12 ft model, before the Smithsonian had restored it, is gray and some of the grays tend to the green.

I stand corrected. Thanx, Nelson!
post #221 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Justin, I watched BOT Sunday morning @11:00am on CW57(formerly UPN57). Looks like this will be the schedule for future airings.
post #222 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

That's a decent time slot.
Sundays at midnite, or 3 am...?!?!?
post #223 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Wow, Darren Docherman has chimed in on Balance of Terror Enhanced. Darren was the man responsible for the Director's cut of Star Trek The Motion Picture's new CGI effects. Can't help but think if his comments are objective since they turned him down to do this project. But I'm sure he was as objctive as he could be.

http://trekmovie.com/2006/09/18/revi...ered/#more-195
post #224 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Btw, ENTERPRISE is being shown on HDNET, NOT Star Trek:TOS.

FYI
post #225 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

[quote=ChristopherDAC]If you're referring to the shot after the explosion of the "old-style atomic warhead", what we see there is the Enterprise "listing" to one side like a surface ship with damage. Unrealistic, maybe, but intended (remember the episode owes a good deal to submarine stories).


The shot I am speaking of was just a flyby before any shots were fired. The new CGI just lacked depth in my opinion, The textures were almost non-existent but maybe this will all improve as they continue to do more episodes.
post #226 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Any information on philadelphia (kyw) airings? thanks
post #227 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
The real colors of the Enterprise 12 ft model, before the Smithsonian had restored it, is gray and some of the grays tend to the green. Very subtle green. If I understand it correctly, the reason it looked blue on TV was that it was filmed in front of a bluescreen and the blue color reflected a bit onto the model.
From: What Color Is The Classic Enterprise? by Paul Newitt

Quote:
Here are the much anticipated paint specs for the "The Original Series" Enterprise, based on research provided by Richard C. Datin, the original builder of the 3' (33in) and 11ft. (4x) filming miniatures, in late 1964.

These samples, and subsequent paint formulas are based on the only known remaining sample, which is an overspray "splatter" on the backside of one of the original Enterprise drawings.

You can find out more about this color, and of the Enterprise miniatures' history in the "Star Trek Communicator", issues # 132 and # 133, written by William McCullars, and who has an excellent Trek miniatures website, "The IDIC Page".

In part two, Richard Datin states: "Jeffries also furnished paint chips, for which I had lacquer-based paint custom-matched by a Fuller's Paint dealer on Olympic Blvd. in Los Angeles"....."it was not a Ford or GM paint or primer as some "learned" souls have decried. It was a flat finish--a light grey color with a light tint of green."

...

Film stock, especially Ektachrome-based 35mm film stock used in the mid to late 60's had a blue bias (like 35mm camera film--it usually has a bias towards the color of the box it comes in, i.e. Agfa/orange, Fuji/green, Kodachrome/yellow, etc.); so if the Enterprise looked blue from the bluescreen (enough to influence Andrew Probert to give homage to the classic Enterprise by making the "1701-D" duck egg blue), AND by the film bias--then It's blue for those reasons, and I can see how this "Concrete" color would absorb the blue biases easily...(I held a bright blue shirt under my drafting lamp, and reflected the light coming from the shirt onto the sample--and the sample became blue-grey. Voila! No green-grey, no neutral grey--Blue-grey.)

Just sharing...
post #228 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinJB
Any information on philadelphia (kyw) airings? thanks
i think as someone already mentioned it airs on wpsg sunday morning 11 am 7 posts back.

i think 'psg might be under philly cbs's umbrella.

do you use any cable or sat system.
just do a show search for star trek.
post #229 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Rich, if you're getting it in HD you might be the only one..!
Well, actually, not me either. As many of you probably realized when you read my post, HDNet was not broadcasting "Star Trek" last night, but rather "Star Trek: Enterprise". It did appear to have CGI special effects. Did not seem to help.
post #230 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

I remember sometimes Kirk would wear a green shirt, different style than the regular one. But to me, the regular one was always gold.

As far as the Enterprise, it has always looked white to me.
post #231 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Although I didn't watch it all, I did catch the first 15 minutes of "Balance of Terror" the I DVR'ed. This one was broadcast from the local FOX station while "Miri" was broadcast from the local NBC station - only because they are both owned by the same owner and run from the same building here in town. The FOX station broadcast was much better then the NBC station on their respective HD channels even though neither airing was in HD.

About the command uniform shirt color... the actual fabric always did have a slight green tint to it. Mostly gold, sure, but with some green tint. By the time it made it to the final film print, the bright lights hitting the velour fabric and all the color correcting that goes on with the processing pretty much obliterated the green out of it. Kirk's later "wraparound" shirt was a different fabric with a totally different green hue that maintained it's green on film. I noticed that even on "BoT", like "Miri" before it, the gold shirts are finally showing hints of that green tint. Very faint hints, and on quick glance it does still look quite gold, but it is there.
post #232 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

By the third season the Uniform tops were made from a different, (cheaper looking IMHO) fabric. Polyester maybe...? I think the they were more yellowy gold then.
post #233 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
By the third season the Uniform tops were made from a different, (cheaper looking IMHO) fabric. Polyester maybe...? I think the they were more yellowy gold then.

Yes, it's a double knit Polyester. I own a couple of yards of the original fabric and it's not gold, more like an olive green... but under the bright studio lights it changes to a yellowish gold like appearance.

They decided to get rid of the velour uniforms because of their continuous shrinking from dry cleaning. Polyester doesn't shrink.
post #234 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Gotcha.

post #235 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

I think this is why all the later Trek shows looked wrong to me when they used the old uniforms. They never got the right shade of fabric. A straight gold looks wrong on film. Maybe the next franchise will have a better reference now with the restored prints when they emulate TOS.
post #236 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Dave Mack- Since you are in the Bay Area like I am, what are you watching the new Star Trek on? Cable or OTA?

I ask because I am watching via OTA and it looks okay, not as sharp as the OTA HD broadcasts on the major networks of course. It just looks soft to me and awful compared to the screen caps of Balance of Terror I've seen. I guess the CW affiliate here has a bad SD transmission.

What about others here watching OTA? Hows the picture? Maybe it's unfair to compare against modern new shows broadcast in HD.

Thanks!
post #237 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Considering that these were being remastered for HD, it's entirely posible that the FX masters were in such bad shape that if they didn't redo the effects with CGI, than people would be complaining about the poor quality, so you're picking the lesser of two evils.

Now, I haven't seen BoT myself yet since I completely forgot about it, but since I own several episodes on 16mm (complete prints, not syndicated crap), I can say that the effects segments always looked terrible comapred to the very good looking live footage.

I'm just saying that if CBS hadn't done this, would people be bitching that the FX looked bad in HD.

Now, whether CBS should have done a BETTER job is another issue....
post #238 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Ya know, after whining and complaining about the redone effects (yes, me too) for two weeks, after I watched "Balance of Terror" I felt...blah. It didn't destroy the show as much as I wanted to believe it would. Nor did it add anything to the show. Did the Enterprise look fake? You'd better believe it. Did the entire thing look not quite right, especially to someone who's seen the real episode countless times? Yup.

But there is no way enhancing the effects to the extent they did is going to bring in more viewers, especially at god-awful timeslots (I got mine at 2 am Sunday morning). Overall, a big ho-hum for me. I might tape one or two shows to watch later, but I'm completely over this version. Wake me up when Trek does something worthwhile again.
post #239 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Now I'm itching to see this and I have to wait a week

For some reason I thought the show started today and not Monday.
post #240 of 1108

Re: Star Trek TOS Special Edition Starts Sept 16th.

Bottom Line they needed to do this so they could eventually release the Series in HD-DVD. The Effects at least had to match the Glorious looking live Footage. Take your DVD and Pause any effect shot on your nice new HDTV and see how that looks at 480i, now imagine it 100 times worse on a 1080p set. That's why they did this, and I'm sure they wanted to do it as cheaply as possible. So that's why some of the CGI looks suspect
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