Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat? - Page 4  

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

His reference to what it should look like is something along the lines of CSI or any of the other primetime shows that have that almost 3D look a quality HD broadcast has. Like I said he is no expert but he knows if it lives up to what he has come to think HD should look like compared to SD DVD. Many of the blu ray discs do look worse than over the air HD. While I do see some compression artifacts on OTA broadcasts one only needs to watch HOFD to see just how bad sony has done so far on Blu Ray. A live sports broadcast is understandable when it has problems but not a pre-recorded movie on a format that is marketed as "Beyond HD". Something beyond to me means better than anything possible before it and that currently does not describe what BD is offering.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Why? Just because I bought the thing I'm supposed to automagially like it? I could imagine BR supporters saying "well, you can't say it stinks until you bought it". Well, I did.

I'm holding off selling it until the first batch of 50GB discs are released. I'm so disappointed in the Robocop transfer .

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

So far I have remained fairly silent over HD, but having read most of the thread's and studied the reviews it's becoming apparant that thus far HD-DVD is a winner, so much so that when i'm in the states in a couple of weeks time I may well buy a player - something which a few months ago I'd never have thought I'd ever say. I assumed if anything Blue Ray would be the obvious choice.

And the point of me posting this below the above quote is to say that despite daily propagandering from PeterTHX about the supposed long term benefits of Blue Ray, statements like the above show how narrow-minded and biased he is.

Your daily tirades are doing nothing but harm and come across much as the Iraqi minister of propaganda did just a few short years ago - ridiculous. Attacking the pro-HD camp on this forum is one thing, but when an actual BD owner says it's not up to scratch, you have the gall to post the above - why shouldn't he complain? What if the quality of these disc's remain's constant because people don't complain?

Because right now as a consumer who has bought Laserdisc, DVD and now wants HD - BD, today, sucks.

M

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

???

At least they know what they're talking about.
Many of the positive statements seem to come from non-owners. Frankly, that's what I find so hard to accept.

BTW, who do you think you are here?


Cees

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Nothing like a little hyperbole to start the day, eh?
Um, there's a funtion called "find all posts by". You'll find lately I've spent more time in the "Superman Returns" thread than any HD threads.

You also won't find me "attacking" HD owners, or saying HD DVD picture sucks. I still think they have yet to build an actual player, kludging together a PC doesn't count in my book.


Gall?
Because there are several very nice BD releases, saying that the format "sucks" altogether is not true. Not by a long shot. Should one judge HD DVD on "Tomb Raider", "U2", "Full Metal Jacket", etc???


Yes, it's the TRANSFER. An HD DVD version of the transfer, even in VC-1, probably wouldn't look much better.
By the way everyone, I have a secret to share: "RoboCop" is a considered a very low budget film! Yes, really! I have all the SD DVD versions except for the Image ones and needless to say I've never pulled it off the shelf to impress anyone with my setup.

Until someone is willing to pony up for some restoration work (a la "Terminator") this is as good as it's going to get. It also brings me to my next point: next year is the films 20th Anniversary. Can you say "double dip" coming?


To be called "narrow minded" & "biased" and take all sorts of abuse I guess. Because I have the gall to believe in BD and take a long term view, rather than form one over a couple of weeks.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

a couple points-
I just saw Tomb Raider recently and it looks just fine. I see absolutely no room or reason for complaint with this one. Defintely a good sized upgrade from the sd dvd.

as for Robocop, Josh Z's review over on DVDTalk comments that among the discs (numerous) issues are poor compression/encoding manifesting itself in digital grain and blocking (something I don't doubt having seen several other Bds where this was a problem).

By comparision, Full Metal Jacket had absoltuely no compression related artifacting that I could see. And while it didn't look super-duper amazing the worst I can say about it was that it didn't look much different from the already excellant sd dvd release.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Why would I wish to search for threads you've posted in, when taking a cursory glance in the HD threads that every time there is a comment that is even slightly anti-BD your there on the defensive?

Hence why you come across to the casual viewer who has no axe to grind either way as narrow minded and biased. And several others have made mention of this too.

As for the three titles you mentioned on HD, both FMJ & TR were praised by Robert Harris for their film-like qualities and how faithfull to the source they were, do they look like the Revenge of the Sith, no, but they do look how they should which is what counts...so there is one genuinely bad title on HD-DVD compared to several on BD which are either not as good as the HD-DVD equivalent or not very good full stop.

And as for Robocop being low-budget, it wasn't, it was a big summer blockbuster that was the first widespread use of Dolby SR - so someone thought it important enough to spend big bucks on that alone. I've got it on Criterion LD and the subsequent DVD and MGM edition, for it's time it looks fine, in fact Widescreen Review gave the LD 5 stars when it came out, praising its picture quality. Robocop maybe in need of a new state-of-the art transfer, but i'm sure it is not in need of restoration - I would welcome a HD-DVD edition of the same transfer, to see how badly the BD encoding has affected this release.

Are you saying that a re-issue of a title on a fledgling format within a year is a good thing, I realise it's speculation on your part but this is a not a way to make people want to buy an already troubled format.

Finally, as for the reasoning behind your views concerning the long term of BD, unless something is done v quickly there may not be a future because if a good portion of HD interested HTF members are not gonna buy, who will?

Oh and Toshiba's gear in general may not be up to the standard's of Krell and Denon etc, but as for it being a laptop in drag, that is plain ridiculous...

M

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Any "good portion" of HTF members, IMO, are going to be interested in titles. That's what this "war" is going to come down to. IMO, no member is going to be satisfied (for long) having access to titles from only several movie studios on their chosen optical disc format.

And this is very important: there is no technical reason why any of the supposed current advantages of HD DVD (codec use or image quality on present transfers) will not be present in the Blu-ray format, given the competition between studios and hardware manufacturers, and given the fact that two of HD DVD's major studios will be releasing the same titles on Blu-ray.

It may be an unwelcome long term view (particularly to folks who have invested in HD DVD and do not relish spending money getting into another format), but given the fact that the only major format support changes during the last year have been Warner and Paramount to Blu-ray after previously announcing support only for HD DVD, which do you think is more likely, a Universal announcement of support for Blu-ray, or a Sony or Fox announcement of support for HD DVD? Given Fox's recent comments, and the obvious position of Sony, and great manufacturer support that we know is coming soon for Blu-ray (e.g., Panasonic, Pioneer, etc.), I'd suggest that it's more likely that Universal will announce support for Blu-ray.

If the reverse occurs, though, I think that is the occasion when HD DVD supporters should definitely start celebrating.

I don't think that PeterTHX is being unreasonable with his "long term" view. It appears to me that he may be a "Jor-El" telling members of the Krypton council what they don't want to hear.

Jeff

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

New interview:

HDBeat Interview: Andy Parsons of the BDA & Pioneer's Senior VP




http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/08/hdb...ers-senior-vp/

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

They certainly are interested in availability and quantity of titles, but if the quality of said titles is barely better than what they already have on there shelves at home, especially when upconverted by a high quaity DVD player, then who will re-buy them?

Could BD potentially match HD-DVD, yes, but at the moment it doesn't - and regardless of rumour-mill and supposition there is nothing concrete to affirm that BD disc's 6 months from now will be any better than the mediocre level on average that they currently are at.

Re your Jor-El comments, he had scientific fact on his side rather than hope and blind adoration...

As for your link posted above upon reading "What content can I buy in the format, what movies, is a powerful motivator, which is more important than CODECs or cropping". Which translates as pile them high, sod the quality, which does not bode well for your expectations of BD quality improval....

M

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Actually "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" was the first, the first to use the logo was "Innerspace". At that point pretty much all Orion films were using it, films like "Monkey Shines" and "Throw Momma From The Train" (hardly big budgeted films). They spent some money on sound I'll admit, one way to make the film seem more expensive than it was. Another fairly low budget film (for its scope) to use sound to make it seem "bigger" was a little film called "Star Wars".

There's plenty of films that looked great on LD that don't look so hot on DVD, particularly when people realized what edge enhancement and such was doing, things that were perfectly fine for LD. Poor print quality & things are now shown to be detrimental to the BD format, so formerly reference titles like "The Fifth Element" no longer cut the mustard.

It's a learning process. I'm sure future versions will look better. Meanwhile, purchase "Good Night & Good Luck" or "Training Day" to get some great looking BD discs.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Well according to Dolby Labs http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/news...6_CineExpo.pdf
Robocop & Innerspace were the first SR Films, but it's a minor point

M

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Peter, everyone knows you’re a committed BR partisan. But even you should have to admit that the launch hasn’t been satisfactory. Most BR titles are quite disappointing, and some of them are quite bad. Foisting it all off as being due to “low budget” and “older” films doesn’t wash. The encoding is BAD. Artifacts are there that shouldn’t be there, irrespective of the age of the film. From the DVDTalk review:


And everyone is quite justified in asking “why DIDN’T these BR people do a better job with the transfers?”. Here you are, trying to sell people on the merits of a new format, and you don’t bother to bust your ass to make it look as good as it possibly can? WHY (Especially when you’re trying to show you’re better than the competing new format)? I think these kind of half assed efforts give people good reason to question the BD commitment to picture quality. It does no good to excuse it by saying “well, it’s not the fault of BR technology”. People don’t buy technology. They buy a PRODUCT. The product is the result of EVERYTHING that goes into making it, from start to finish. No matter how you try to spin it, the consensus is that BR product quality is inferior (with titles that are out on both formats, the HDDVD version is considered superior, including Training Day). If you refuse to acknowledge that, then it’s obvious it’s not about which is better to you. It’s about “winning”.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

I'm an actual BD owner, and so far there are only two good transfers available: UNDERWORLD:EVOLUTION and STEALTH.


Bingo.


They look like a million dollars next to nearly ever BD on the market, except for the two mentioned above.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

You think owners of a product have no business critiquing its quality? Or is it your view that if you own something, you HAVE to praise its quality?

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

He has no problem critquing a product, as long as it's not a Blu-Ray product.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Retail isn't helping. I stopped at a very high end audio store in our city. (not a chain)

I asked to see their HD-DVD & Blu-ray players, but I obviously insulted the poor guy.

"We only carry high-end products and none of our manufacturers get into something that's all just "buzz" at this point. Besides, neither are true 1080p HD players yet anyway. So we can put up an upconverted standard DVD player and achieve just as good of a picture."

And I replied "But they won't play HD movies."

Honestly. I felt like this guy slapped me for no reason.

The formats are taking heat cause high-end retail shops (who cater to early adopters like us) think it obviously can't be any good until it has a $2,000 gold knob on it and it's run through a $20,000 Marantz amp.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Don't expect the likes of Krell, Meridian, Theta, etc. to market hidef players for a very long time (if ever).

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Pioneer Elite will have a bluray player, though.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Doesn't necessarily mean anything. I've walked into Ultra-High end computer specialty shops run by people who I swear think in binary, and gotten some of the most incredible statements out of them. My favorite, by far, was...

"We don't stock those 3d cards, dos and windows are both 2d, those things are useless"

30 days later they had a shelf of 3dFX cards.

IMO, High-End shops with snooty attitudes usually means someone isn't getting the alotment they wanted and think they deserve for being "Special". By Christmas they'll have shelves of high end High Def players, probably from both camps, and be telling you how the upscaling players aren't worth it.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

If it was truly high end. The sales pitch would be

""We don't stock those 3d cards, dos and windows are both 2d. May I interest you in a SGI Octane?"

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

"Have to praise" is quite different from "I have it and EVERYTHING SUCKS! There's NOTHING good about it". That is what I took exception to.


And people have no problem critiquing ME, not knowing me as a person and disagreeing by my preference for another format they can't stand to hear anything remotely negative about. If I was equally positive of HD DVD as I am BD, they'd probably be asking to send me money via PayPal.

The moral is "attack the messenger" in these threads.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Some members were critiquing a specific message you posted. Some members were critiquing several repeatedly posted messages of yours. A few members were critiqing the mere fact that those messages were posted so damned frequently.

No one was attacking you as a person.

I'm reading all of those posts about the new format and I can assure you that most HD DVD "proponents" (if they even remotely can be categorized as such) seem very relaxed, apparently do not feel they have to reply to each and every (positive or negative) post about the format and generally stay away from posts about the other format.
A few "BD proponents" however seem to feel they need to do exactly the opposite, even going as far as constantly accusing the "other party" of dubious motives.

*Sigh* again.
Most people here simply want the best HR format, are genuinely interested to find out which of the two (if any) that may be, and have no predefined interest or big preference for one of them - until real advantages begin to show up.

Apparently, somehow you take it all, well, very personal, even identifying "attacks" on your messages and posting style as attacks on your own person. For an objective reader they are not.

And no matter what your personal opinion about the formats may be or become, I'm pretty sure no-one here feels any desire to send you any money. Not through PayPal, not otherwise.


Cees

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Even if they're not meant to be, these things start to look like lynch mobs pretty quickly. When they have official site backing it looks even worse, and probably isn't any fun for the person being targeted. As for the original question of this thread (it's almost impossible for us to stay on topic isn't it) the heat comes from passion for AV. Some want one thing with one mindset (now now now) and others want something else with a different mindset (wait and see). The two types of people seem to have difficulty understanding each other.

It's worth adding that's it's extremely easy for anyone to say they own something given the anonymity of the internet. That's why professional reviews are more important to me than off-the-cuff comments on internet message boards.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Rob,

I agree, and we're keeping an eye on it.

About those different mindsets: yes, and it is OK, of course, for people to have different feelings and expectations and views about new developments to begin with. But I sure wish people wouldn't hold the different mindset of their discussion partners against them, or imply their own mindset is superior.

E.g. some people may want to look more into the future, but they're not doing something inherently better, or smarter, than someone who wants to judge a developments by what it realizes now. The latter may be more realistic even, but one needs to realize that it's not all of the story too.

In these threads, what seems to frustrate many members mostly, is the repeated "reposte" by some people who already made their point several times, and apparently think they have to say it once more.. and again ... and another time. This is especially irritating if the information is, well, one-sided to say it friendly, which then starts to show more and more.

And it certainly irritates if other posters are addressed as being unreasonable, short-sighted, ignorant (to a degree), or such is implied in one's message.


Cees

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Exactly. It doesn't seem to have occured to Peter that BR is criticized so much simply because it hasn't lived up to the expectations people had for it, not because they had a preexisting hatred of it.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Tell you what, Peter:

Stop calling the Toshiba a "glorified laptop" every time the subject is broached, and maybe those of us who see that "glorified laptop" as the best upconverting DVD Player ever, along with the ability to produce incredible true HD images, will stop reacting to your every negative point.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

I want to echo what Robert said. All this time I couldn't give a rat's ass which format won. I still don't, which is why I own both. But you have to look at it from my point of view. I'm a 35mm film collector and after a while, it gets cumbersome. I just want my movies on an uninterruptable, reliable, HD format. That's it. I don't care if it's HD-DVD, BR, or Uberdisc, I just want the job done, and done right. So far, BR hasn't done it right.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

A good example of someone wanting everything now, and not understanding those who want to wait. Cees, some of this bickering is probably spill-over from AVS (and possibly other forums I'm unaware of) since some of the same people post on both (all). The normal course of threads is for someone to make an opening statement or question, followed by a bunch of posts essentially saying "BD will continue to improve let's wait and see what happens", mixed with "HD DVD is better right now why should anyone be interested in BD". My favourite example currently is the fella who has rebought the Samsung, and is now being bombarded by HD DVD "fans" telling him he made a mistake and that he should go with HD DVD only. I think some of these posters are also on this board. And, yes, things might be just as bad in the HD DVD forums, but I don't read them.

As to expectations vs reality, it strikes me that things have played out fairly predictably so far, with very few surprises. Certainly some of the early BD titles could have been taken from higher quality masters, but that's all I can think of that should surprise anyone. HD DVD was always likely to get things at about peak performance out of the gate, since they're leveraging old technology which has already had most of the kinks worked out of it. Did anyone really expect a Samsung player to be a brilliant piece of kit?! Or a Toshiba? Did none of us forsee the firmware updates to half finished products? The studios and CE companies releasing at staggered times and the initial use of MPEG2 on single layer discs were all long known by anyone with some interest in this format dispute. In fact the only really surprising thing since both formats launched is just how little has changed. No new devices announced. No new players displayed. No new studio deals. It's pretty much "as you were" just with a few tens of thousands of players on the market.

Re: Why has either of the HD formats taken so much heat?

Peter, please don’t take this as abuse, but this kind of statement detracts from your valid observations.

DVD players are really just specialized (as opposed to general purpose) computers. To denigrate the Toshiba HD-DVD player as not an ‘actual’ player, simply because it does not meet some internal standard that you hold (but that is unknown to anyone else) is to demonstrate that you do not understand the function of any player—that is, it is to properly deliver audio and video.

If you would focus your energy on why the current HD-DVD player is not doing that properly (such as its lack of 1080p output or support for some of the newer audio formats) you will have an argument that may have some substance.

Even so, the lack of either is not attributable to the player being a ‘kludged’ computer.