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post #31 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

My 1 and one half cents

Fellowship of the Ring: EE, but only by a hair. The Theatrical version was so enthralling that night I sat and watched it in a theater with my friend Dennis. I had no idea it was going to be that good. A lot of people forget that it was still a very iffy prospect when Fellowship was being made. "The guy who made Dead Alive?" "The kid from Flipper as Frodo?" "Rudy is Sam?" "Who the hell is Viggo Mortensen?" "Agent Smith is Elrond. Okay." At the time the movie was considered well-nigh unfilmable. so I went in pretty trepidatious. And was blown away. Still the best movie of the trilogy, for me. What the EE fleshes out it does well and it flows almost as effortlessly as the TE. On first viewing there was a lot I didn't realize was added back until I checked the chapter listings and was surprised at how many "content added" asterisks there were.

The Two Towers: TE. The EE fills in a lot of blank spots, but it seems to do it awkwardly. And the pacing is off in some spots, leading to a semi-disjointed viewing experience. The editing on Two Towers was always the most problematic, and I think if Jackson was given an extra two or three months, he'd have improved Two Towers considerably for the theatrical, and a lot of the problems that Return of the King had to overcome in it's first hour would have been non-existent. The EE sometimes feels like a slog--but a FUN slog, sort of like the middle half hour of Star Wars, after the droids land on Tatooine, but before they finally hit the Death Star. Except in Two Towers EE, it's about an HOUR of that slog.

Return of the King: EE, mostly because it's such a full, rich dish that I end up not caring how much food is on the plate. I've thrown in the 1st disk of the ROTK EE about 3 times now, and each time, I'm doing it intending to only watch that first disk and finish up the next night. And every time, me and my girl just automatically throw the 2nd disc in--fully expecting to stop it about halfway through and finish the next night. And it never happens. We always end up bleary eyed and sniffly at 2 in the morning. Every time. The first time I watched the EE, I actually cried MORE than during my first time watching the TE in theaters--and I was a sniveling WRECK at the end of that theatrical viewing. Yes, it's 4 hours long. But it's so utterly transporting at all times that I don't care. It's like a waking dream, almost BECAUSE of it's length. And while I still believe that the EE of Fellowship is the more riveting movie, the sheer emotion coming off of every frame in the EE of Return of the King is just more satisfying, maybe even because of the length. It revels in the buildup and that's why I think the 20 minute endings sequences are earned.

That said, my friend Mike detailed to me how to perfectly truncate that ending so that it works perfectly: Kill the movie after they toast to their health, silently, in Hobbiton. I took it one step further--you also cut the pillowfight sequence. Go from Frodo being flown over what's left of Mordor, unconscious, fade to black--and fade in at Aragorn's coronation. The inference is that Frodo and Sam DID die after "Here at the end of all things" and lends a wistful, bittersweet tone to the celebration that I think would be welcomed--and then when you SEE all 4 hobbits, you're overjoyed and elated that they DID live. And then when he says "you bow to no one?" floodgates from the tearducts.

Improves pacing AND emotional heft, and you kill probably 8-10 minutes from the film. Sure, you lose the grey havens, which is such an important part of the book, and you almost NEED to make that concession to the fans after axing the Scouring of the Shire, but in pure movie language, I think chopping the pillowfight and everything after the toast works better.
post #32 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

That's an interesting idea. I also thought that the fade-out after the "here at the end of all things" line would have been a killer place for an ending -- it would have broken every heart in the theater.

And I think the audience felt it appropriate... every time I saw Return in the theater, the audience started leaving during that fade-out!
post #33 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah Sullivan
First off, to clarify:

Peter Jackson's contract stipulates all three films run no more than 120 minutes. That's what the contract says (according to PJ himself). Those cuts don't work. The theatrical cuts include those scenes that round the film out and make it work - hence, these are the best working cuts in his opinion.

I agree - the theatrical cuts make the most sense and are the most elegantly edited versions. The extended cuts have fitful stop-go pacing and hairpin tonal shifts that the theatrical cuts don't have. They are also sloppy, contain redundancies and red herrings, and get sidetracked into issues that go nowhere and add nothing to the overall story.

They do gratify fans of the books, and fans of the films who want "more of the same" regardless of the esthetic consequences.

Exceptions: The Return of the King theatrical cut was already overlong. If I were PJ's editor, I would beg him to let me cut another 30-40 minutes out of the theatrical cut. The extended DVD would be ok at 3:20 minutes...but at 4 hours plus, King is a catastrophe.

The Two Towers extended cut has a couple of nice additions - if they had extended it by ten minutes it would have been the best of the three films. With 40 minutes of additions, the extended cut gains emotional resonance but loses momentum and coherance.

That's my opinion...

Fellowship - theatrical: A+ extended: A-
Two Towers - theatrical: A- extended: A
Return of the King - theatrical: A extended B-

My thoughts EXACTLY. FotR: theatrical is, for me, the best film of the entire trilogy. But TTT: EE and RotK: TE are A films as well. Dunno if I'd go as low as a B- for RotK: EE. Maybe a B. But still, you nailed the reasoning pretty much perfectly.

My real problem, I guess, is with those folks who, for some reason, feel that the theatrical versions are somehow rendered invalid merely by the existence of the extended versions. It's like saying that the theatrical version of Apocalypse Now no longer exists just because the Redux was released. For too many people, just because the extended versions add in material from the books, the theatrical versions are inherently inferior and insignificant.

For me, this couldn't be further from the truth, and seriously downplays the importance of good, judicious editing. Sometimes, cuts just need to be made. For me, the streamlined flow of FotR actually adds to the emotional impact of the film, rather than detracts from it. Is the gift-giving a lovely scene in its own right - does it add beauty, additional information and (in Gimli's case) humor, to the film? Absolutely. Does it belong in the final cut? For me, no. This is a point where the film needs to move, something it does with ferocity in the theatrical cut.

I'm not saying that those that prefer the EEs all feel that just because more material is in the film, it's inherently better. But there is a group of people that DO feel this way and, for my money, it just isn't true. Editing matters, and I think the cuts PJ and his team made in FotR and RotK for the theatrical versions were necessary ones, and they result in better films.
post #34 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I guess you could say that the TE's make better "films", having a tighter pace and moving the story along with each scene. But if that's the case I'm going to say that the EE's are "cinematic novels", and are, IMO, much more satisfying than the abridgment. As to that last remark, you could say it isn't an abridgment because the TE's came first, and I'd in turn say that even though it was originally cut as the TE's, the EE scenes were filmed before any cut was made.
post #35 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I prefer the EE's on Fellowship and Two Towers, but the theatrical Return of the King is my preference over the EE.

The Return of the King EE actually gives away one of the better 'suprises' of the film, which is why I will never show it to a first time viewer.
post #36 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

My New Year's tradition of the last couple years, which I expect will continue indefinitely since it's popular, is to run all 3 EE back to back starting at noon and ending just before midnight, with short breaks for the potty and snacks, with a big kettle of stew or chili boiling all day for whenever anyone's hungry.

I dislike the EE of TTT intensely though, so the tradition might become EE of FOTR (which I love), TE of TTT to minimize the noncanonical material (and I wish there was a way to cut out the Wonder Horse material altogether), and EE of ROTK (which is long, but contains the essential death of Saruman---the TE is just missing too much important material).
post #37 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I prefer the Extended Editions. They are the superior versions in my opinion.
post #38 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Zimmer
My New Year's tradition of the last couple years, which I expect will continue indefinitely since it's popular, is to run all 3 EE back to back starting at noon and ending just before midnight, with short breaks for the potty and snacks, with a big kettle of stew or chili boiling all day for whenever anyone's hungry.

I dislike the EE of TTT intensely though, so the tradition might become EE of FOTR (which I love), TE of TTT to minimize the noncanonical material (and I wish there was a way to cut out the Wonder Horse material altogether), and EE of ROTK (which is long, but contains the essential death of Saruman---the TE is just missing too much important material).

Mark
Your assessment pretty much mirrors my own. I like your New Years idea.
post #39 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I do prefer the theatricals to the EEs. FOTR EE is the best out all of them, but I do not like the extended Lothlorien intro scene. The theatrical version was fine, the EE features continuity errors (look at Gimli's makeup) and switches from night to day to night which seems jarring to me (I know, in the book, the journey takes several days, but I still prefer the theatrical version).

In TTT EE, my main beef is the added scenes to the ending, whiched dragged on needlessly (similar to ROTK), unlike the theatrical ending which was paced perfectly.

One would think that ROTK would benefit the most from added scenes, due to the amount of plot that needs to be covered, but this the worst out of all the EEs. The voice of Saruman scene was nice, but the worst additions was showing the Army of the Dead agreeing to join Aragorn and then attacking the corsairs, as it TOTALLY kills the suspense and surprise of their appearance in the Pelannor Fields. This is why I always skip chapter 1 of Disc 2. Also, ROTK EE features Gimli acting like a drunk ass and farting. People bitch and complain about the fart in The Phantom Menace, but this was just as bad, if not worse.
post #40 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

EEs all the way. Better story, better picture, and better sound.
post #41 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
I took it one step further--you also cut the pillowfight sequence. Go from Frodo being flown over what's left of Mordor, unconscious, fade to black--and fade in at Aragorn's coronation. The inference is that Frodo and Sam DID die after "Here at the end of all things" and lends a wistful, bittersweet tone to the celebration that I think would be welcomed--and then when you SEE all 4 hobbits, you're overjoyed and elated that they DID live. And then when he says "you bow to no one?" floodgates from the tearducts.
That's actually not a bad idea. I disagree about cutting the Grey Havens (it's absolutely essential to show the consequences for Frodo of his journey), but you make a good case for the film working without the pillow fight. I dislike that scene for its execution, but did think it was necessary. You've just convinced me otherwise.
post #42 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

The reunion scene is crucial. The emotion displayed in that scene (especially when Frodo sees Sam) is second to none. After the heartbreaking terror of the Mount Doom sequence, I was smiling ear to ear during this scene. As a matter of fact, not a second of the 20 minute denouement could be cut, imo. It's all perfect.
post #43 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
He was required to keep them under a certain time limit (3 hours, IIRC) in order to allow a certain number of viewings per screen per day. He knew up front that he'd be able to re-cut them for DVD however he liked.

I don't believe that is true. Undoubtedly the studio would have pressured him to keep the running times down, but I don't think there was a requirement. And anyway ROTK T.E. was well over three hours anyway.

I've completely watched all the extras on the extended 4-disc DVD sets (fascinating stuff) and Peter Jackson considers the theatrical versions to be the definitive cuts of the films in terms of storytelling and pacing.

The extended versions were planned at the outset right alongside the theatrical versions (not an afterthought) and were intended as more fleshed out versions that would be a gift for the true fans.

My own opinion? Pacing be damned, because the richness of the extended cuts makes it all the more immersive and I prefer the slower book-like pace.
post #44 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

"I am very happy with the way the extended cut DVDs are now fleshing out the trilogy. This one I think was about 43 minutes longer than the theatrical version, and, you know, I think the extra material that's in here - particularly things like Merry and Pippin in Fangorn and the Ent stuff - it helps, ultimately, create a trilogy which is much more detailed and has the moments of - has the pacing that you kind of - you want it to be, as a complete story - but it can't be when you're sort of facing having to make a theatrical film once a year that kind of has a momentum and a pace that attracts people to the cinema."

- - - Peter Jackson, the Director/Writer commentary for TTT:EE
post #45 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P
I don't believe that is true. Undoubtedly the studio would have pressured him to keep the running times down, but I don't think there was a requirement.

Believe it. The contract reads 120 minutes for the theatrical cuts, and the extended cut wasn't guaranteed until early 2002, when Fellowship was clearly a major hit. The reason the films are all around three hours in the theaters is due to the execs at New Line liking the 2:52 Fellowship cut very much and agreeing to release it.
post #46 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I could be wrong but don't the theatrical cuts of the first two run 2:59:59 or very close to that?
post #47 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Yes - Fellowship runs that length with credits, and Two Towers does without credits. I think.
post #48 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

here is copy&paste from a thread i've made at movie-list.com for the biggest problem i've had in the ee of return of the king ....


after seeing both versions of rotk, i always had one big problem. the extended edition has two scenes that should've not included into it. the problem with these scenes is that they kill the surprise. the scenes i'm talking about are Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
after aragon ask the dead army "what say you". when our 3 heroes leave the cave and look down to the river, they see the pirates coming and aragon falls on his knees. to that point the scene is perfect, as it shows that hope is lost and gondor will fall. but then peter jackson made the first mistake: he showed us that the king of the dead will fight. the second mistake comes about 7min later, when we see our 3 heroes standing on the beach and tell the pirates to surrender. these two scenes kill the "lost hope" theme and the surprise later on. the surprise is when the boats are coming into the harbor and the orks just waiting for the pirates but our heroes jump out instead.


i made the spoiler tags for those who hadn't seen the movie. if you haven't seen it, don't watch the clip below

i made a little clip for the scene how it should've been like, at least from the editing point. the sound cut is to obvious. anyway, you get the idea.



480x270 - 4.5 MB

what do you guys think?
post #49 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

[quote=EnricoE]here is copy&paste from a thread i've made at movie-list.com for the biggest problem i've had in the ee of return of the king ....


after seeing both versions of rotk, i always had one big problem. the extended edition has two scenes that should've not included into it. the problem with these scenes is that they kill the surprise. the scenes i'm talking about are Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
after aragon ask the dead army "what say you". when our 3 heroes leave the cave and look down to the river, they see the pirates coming and aragon falls on his knees. to that point the scene is perfect, as it shows that hope is lost and gondor will fall. but then peter jackson made the first mistake: he showed us that the king of the dead will fight. the second mistake comes about 7min later, when we see our 3 heroes standing on the beach and tell the pirates to surrender. these two scenes kill the "lost hope" theme and the surprise later on. the surprise is when the boats are coming into the harbor and the orks just waiting for the pirates but our heroes jump out instead.


i made the spoiler tags for those who hadn't seen the movie. if you haven't seen it, don't watch the clip below

i made a little clip for the scene how it should've been like, at least from the editing point. the sound cut is to obvious. anyway, you get the idea.



I continue to be baffled why people want this so called "surprise" this was my biggest problem with the Theatrical Version of ROTK. It only could have surprised non book readers but even then, I mean come on did you really think Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas would be dumb enough to take on that huge army at Minas Tirith alone. It was only obvious that the Undead army was there and even if you somehow were still surprised you would never be surpised when you watched it again. I felt cheated and it made the scene feel like a cop-out ending to the battle because there was no other way for them to win when they didn't show the full scene of what was happening. I kept saying wait a minute: When did they join and when did they take over the ships. The continuity that the book had and the film had to that point was ruined by this so called "surprise". Thankfully the EE corrects this.
post #50 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I can't really watch the TEs anymore because they just feel too hyperactive to me. I mean, they're good movies and if we'd never gotten the EEs I'd be very happy but the EEs smooth out the pacing and add a lot of very important characterization and plotting. When I watch the FOTR:EE, it's a very satisfying experience with just the right amount of time between action scenes and Jackson's helicopter flyovers; when I watch TE, it feels too much like sprinting for an entire marathon...leaves me breathless and not in a good way.
post #51 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I'll take the EE of all three, especially TTT. TTT in it's TE is rushed and their seems to be a rush to the doom and gloom of Helms deep at the end of the film. The EE slows the pace to a point where it doesn't seem that there's a hurry to face death.
post #52 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I've tried and tried, but can't seem to get through the books. After FOTR came out, I ran to my nearest book store and bought the hard bound trilogy set. i managed to work my way throught FOTR but could only get half way through TTT, just too much detail. Thank God for PJ, he brought Middle Earth to life for me. Watching FOTR in the theater was incredible and I remember going to Burger King and getting my FOTR glowing glass goblet!

I now own both LOTR versions and will always watch the EE's. Why? Mainly because I want to see as much about my heroes and Middle Earth as possible. FOTR EE is my favorite of the 3. One of my favorite scenes of the whole trilogy is "the passing of the elves". It's just magical with the music and all, and when Sam says " I don't know why, but it makes me sad". With out the EE, I never would have seen it. My absolute favorite scene is in ROTK when Aragorn says "My friends, you bow to no one." Like what some one else said, I just lost it. My favorite trilogy of all-time.

Oh, and whenever I need a LOTR fix and don't want to see the whole movie, I'll just put in the super trailer.
post #53 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_S.
I've tried and tried, but can't seem to get through the books. After FOTR came out, I ran to my nearest book store and bought the hard bound trilogy set. i managed to work my way throught FOTR but could only get half way through TTT, just too much detail. Thank God for PJ, he brought Middle Earth to life for me....

I now own both LOTR versions and will always watch the EE's. Why? Mainly because I want to see as much about my heroes and Middle Earth as possible. ... My absolute favorite scene is in ROTK when Aragorn says "My friends, you bow to no one." Like what some one else said, I just lost it. My favorite trilogy of all-time.

Oh, and whenever I need a LOTR fix and don't want to see the whole movie, I'll just put in the super trailer.

I could not agree more....
post #54 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I believe the TE's flow better as films, but there are lots of little LOTR bits that I love about the EE's (there are also some cringe inducing moments in them though). It pretty much depends on my mood as to which one I watch.

I also agree about the dead army being beat to death (ha!) in the EE... not so much for the surprise factor, but there are some pretty bad scenes there (especially with Peter Jackson on the boat). They went way too far with the dead army in the film, in the books

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

they didn't do anything at Minas Tirith, they only helped defeat the black fleet. It was Rohan (and the defeat of the witch king) who saved Minas Tirith's bacon, and I don't like that change in the films.


I think the new ones will probably look fine, but I don't feel a need to buy them.
post #55 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I've purchased all three Extended Edition DVD's the first day in the case or TFotR and TRotK and second day in case of TTT when they were released. I've given all four discs a spin with TFotR and TTT and the appendices discs on TRotK. It's been awhile since I've seen them mostly wanting to utilise the DTS-ES 6.1 sound on my 6.1 receiver but at the moment I'm only set-up with 5.0 right now and don't want to "cheat" said DTS-ES track. I was laughing my ass off at times with the stories on the cast commentaries on both TFotR and TTT. Haven't given the spin to TRotK yet but will get around to it when I finally finish buying and setting up the 6.1 from the 5.0 I have now on it.
Hell, I even used the limited time offer in TRotK to get the trilogy slipcase. This one one of my most all time favourite trilogies and book-to-film adaptations of all time. What has been in bookstores for better more than half a century and was literally deemed impossible to film was made so due to Peter Jackson and everyone involved.
You could sense the camraderie with everyone on the Appendice discs and I'm eagerly awaiting the eventual massively epic live-action silver screen adaptation of The Hobbit.
Perhaps if they were so inclined to adapt The Silmarillion into live action they might as well go for the mini-series approach. I guess my liking for The Lord of the Rings has made me enjoy such non-linear RPG's such as The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind and The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion so much more and gives me that feeling of sense, awe, wonder and complete immersiveness I get while playing them.
post #56 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I finally got around to watching the extras on FOTR:EE, who was cast as Aragorn before Viggo Mortenson? I remember hearing about this a long time ago, but for the life of me cant remember who. Thanks!
post #57 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I'm sure a LOTR superfan will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was Stuart Townsend.
post #58 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

So did Jon ever make his choice? I'm always interested in what a first-time viewer has to say about LOTR.

I like both versions of each film. As others have said, I think the TEs really are paced better, but the EEs make very significant additions to the story and characters. And I agree that it is best viewed in parts, unless you just make a conscious decision and say, "I'm going to sit here for 11 hours and watch this thing." And hey, nothing wrong with that; I was at one of the trilogy screenings on Dec. 16, 2003 myself (of course, that was only the TE of ROTK).

I also have to chime in and say that I feel that
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Saruman's death

absolutely, positively belonged in the theatrical cut of ROTK. There's no real wrap-up of the character without it.

At any rate, like I said, I think both versions work for different reasons.
post #59 of 59

Re: Lord of the Rings Extended vs. Theatrical

I prefer the EE of The Two Towers, but I MUCH prefer the theatrical cuts of the other two films. They're tighter and more effective.

And as a fan of the book, just because the EEs are longer, doesn't mean they're more faithful to the source.
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