*** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread - Page 15

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Although, Lois always seems to find some nice digs.

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I thought the same thing as well, but I was able to write this off as Lois just following a lead the she never imagined would be as dangerous as it turned out to be. However, on a second viewing, this opened up a new plot hole for me that I don't think has been really discussed here. If an old woman with that much of a fortune died and named an criminal such as Luthor as the sole beneficiary of her estate, wouldn't that have been a massive news story? Wouldn't Lois have known exactly who was going to be at that residence?

And speaking of Lois, on that second viewing, I was a bit dissapointed. I was reminded of her line in S:TM "A husband, two kids, a mortgage and a dog. I would go bananas in a week" I know that once the kid actually comes, it changes perceptions just a bit. But, I would never have pictured Lois as so doting, and as a person who would go from "A Hamburger with everthing on it" to whatever weird diets that they kept describing.

Of course, I still liked the film, but nitpicks are truly mighter that the praise, huh?

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On a side note, I don't suppose you have ever read the Warren Ellis parody comic called "The Pro," have you? If you have, you know what I mean. If you haven't...well, it is a hoot. And shows what would have happened if Superman DIDN'T do the Molecule Chamber in Superman 2.

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Actually, they did. Not every single event (like a 2.5 hour movie needs that kind of padding) but they did show examples of Superman saving the day around the world. I don't remember all of the images but we have him breaking up a bank heist and the Convenience store camera footage showing him save people. Do you want to see ALL the people he saved around the world??

Ric, if I were you, I would skip current Infinite Crisis crap. It was a mess and not worth the time and effort put into it. There were moments of fun (The Villain's United stuff was good, I thought) but the overall thing was a depressing and confusing mess. And they killed a favorite characer of mine (don't know if you got there, yet, so I won't say) for which I will never forgive them.

Instead, go read the non-canon but more entertaining Superman stories. I would read "All Star Superman" series, currently ongoing, by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely. It is outstanding stuff and more in tune with what makes the character interesting than anything done with his "mainline" stuff for decades (imho). I would also recommend the Kurt Busiek mini series called "Secret Identity" which is, to my mind, an amazing Superman story. Both capture the epic and the personal Superman story in a way that a monthly book trying to balance continuity and an ever changing rogue's gallery can't. Check them out.

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Yes, exactly. They showed...a grainy image of a convenience store camera! Wow.

Of course I don't expect them to show each and every rescue, but at least one global act of heroism would've been nice. Even Superman III managed to show enough of his South American weather rescue to keep things interesting.

Random news reports are no match for actually seeing Superman saving the day in some foreign locale. I'm not talking about an elaborate sequence that would've padded the film, just enough to show that Superman really had returned to the entire world (and not just Metropolis).

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He could have left a few diamonds crushed from coal...

Besides, who's to say he didn't return with the money like when Clark gave the diner owners the cash after he trashed it teaching the bully a lesson in "Superman II".

Or else, like in "The Incredibles" he has an "understanding" with the government and they pick up the tab.

Or they cut the scene of the bill from his HMO arriving at the Fortress...

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Ric,

I haven't read UP UP AND AWAY but I understand that at least one major plot point in that story is set up in INFINITE CRISIS, so it may be best to read all that material in chronological order.

I'm going to second Phil's recommendation of ALL STAR SUPERMAN. The idea behind the All Star line is to present iconic, recognizable versions of DC's major characters without any ties to monthly continuity. (I imagine that a non-comic book reading filmgoer who walks into a comic book shop for the first time after seeing SR would find anything related to INFINITE CRISIS practically incomprehensible.) Grant Morrison's concept is that these are the present-day adventures of the Silver Age era Superman. The sillier aspects of Silver Age storytelling, such as the complete lack of scientific believability, or the over-reliance on implausible coincidences, are jettisoned, but all the fun, wonder, and imagination remains. It is truly a breath of fresh air. These days I only collect graphic novels and certain back issues. ALL STAR SUPERMAN is the only regular title I buy. It is bi-monthly (due to Frank Quitely's slow pace on the art) and #5 comes out next month, although the shops in my area all have #1-4 still on the shelves. Grant Morrison has long been my favorite comic book writer, and seeing his take on the greatest superhero of all time is like a dream come true.

Morrison was interviewed by Newsarama here: http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AllSt...n_Morrison.htm and he offers the following "tease":


The hardcore fans on the Superman message boards are calling this the best new Superman comic to appear in over 20 years.

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Ric, if you're still going to read Infinite Crisis, you can actually go ahead and start reading Up Up and Away, as that's how it was actually originally released. I think the first part of Up Up and Away was released between IC #5 and #6, and because of the whole One Year Later gimmick, there were a lot of questions that Ininite Crisis had to answer. For example, we found out something major about Supes in the first part of Up Up and Away, but we didn't know WHY or HOW it happened until IC #7 came along, if that makes any sense.

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I loved the plane sequence, favorite part of the whole movie, but the entire time I was thinking it was completely impossible for it to be engineered without failsafes manual overrides and redundant interlocks.

liked the weightless moment and little tribute to 2001 there.

anyone else notice the wacky planets in the credits... sort of like what might happen if krypton crystal growing went bad on some of those, very much like what Luthor was planning for Earth.

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didn't notice either of these - i'll look for them on my second viewing. cool touches, both.

me, too. i just stared at it, wondering...

probably my favorite superhero sequence ever. i'd seen bits of it 100 times on the internet before i went into the movie, but i was there, eyes wide, jaw on the floor the whole time, heart goinggoinggoing...

staggering.

i was just thinking about that this morning. that's the kind of detail that puts movies over the edge for me.

you know, your initial thoughts about lois after your first viewing scared the shit out of me for the movie - the image of lois it put into my head was horrifying, and made me anticipate having to sit through unwatchable footage whenever she was onscreen...so i was relieved when she was not only not all that bad, but - as i noted earlier - perfect, at least for me.

i can only think that you and i know different kinds of women, chuck ...i've seen shrill, and it's certainly not lois. that having been said, there's no woman that's so much of a harpy that someone doesn't love her...at least in my experience. you love who you love, and that's that.

loved it, also. almost like morrison's one-pager at the beginning of his current all-star run.

glad to see we're still on the same page, chuck. stay well.

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and i'm going to third the recommendation.

and rob's description is pretty much unimprovable, right down to the fact that the title is the only non-TPB that i've collected for decades, and the morrison/quitely team-up is (as always) absolutely spectacular.

give it a shot. you won't be disappointed.

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Don't care for ALL STAR SUPERMAN myself....:-) Don't like ALL STAR BATMAN either. I had high hopes for both.

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Thanks for the comics recommendations, guys. I'll definitely pick up All-Star Supes and give it a try! I think I will also try to slog thru OMAC, Supes/Wonder Woman: Sacrifice and Infinite Crisis, before rejoining Supes in "Up, up and away..."

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Major disappointment for me. Haven't checked out ALL STAR SUPERMAN yet. I'm too busy reading all of the trade paperbacks I purchased this weekend with reprints of vintage Seigel/Shuster and Weisinger era stuff.

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See, that's why I was almost begging Chuck to go see SR again because I also didn't see Lois as being this awful bitchy (now even shrill) person, but someone who's now a mother, and gotten all sort of twisted up inside after the love of her life simply vanished for 5 years and then shows up (saving her bacon in the process, once again). I also wouldn't categorize her treatment of Clark as mean, but that Clark's simpleton's advances (i.e., silly elevator scene between the two of them) as 2 trains of thought/action working at cross-purposes, causing much confusion (as "attraction" and "love" can make you do strange things) between people not on the same "romantic" page. Plus, given her home situation for the past 4-5 years, Lois simply treats Clark as a co-worker who's come back after taken half a decade to see the world, not as former flame, but with Clark pushing his own agenda of wanting to somehow rekindle the flames of a relationship with Lois, it makes it seem like Lois is warding off any more suitors, when she probably does it subconsciously, like any other woman in a committed relationship (her being with Richard) but gets hit upon by other men from time to time.

The baggage that comes with most viewers familiar with Superman and the classic Supes-Lois-Clark love triangle is that for that audience, we simply always root for Clark to somehow win over Lois in spite of her adoration of Superman (and never seeing Clark for who he really is), but that dynamic has totally changed with the presence of both Richard and Jason, and that's the bold stroke that Singer and company have added to the Superman mythos, good or bad - time will tell in future installments of the Superman films.

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All-Star Batman is like going on a blind date with a girl everyone said was hot and interested.

But her just-out-of-maximum-security uncle picks you up instead. And it's still a date.

I've already pimped All-Star Superman enough I read Infinite Crisis, and it didn't do much for me. Felt like Deja Vu. You can skip it and read Up, Up, and Away...and not miss anything. The One Year Later titles are pretty good. They are putting some of their best writers and artists on the big three. Morrison and Dini are taking over the Bat-titles next month. That Morrison and that Dini Busiek is taking over one of the S titles. It's enough to make me tolerant of $3 cover prices.

Making Superman cool...a question raised in the BO thread. You'll never make him hip, and any attempt to try will simply alienate the existing fans. One thing the X series has going for it are all the heroes and villains with powers. Spidey, Supes, and Batman all feel the need to explain anyone else who has powers. X-Men just says mutant, and moves on to the good stuff. Why do I bring this up? I don't think the younger fan possibly appreciates what Superman can do. If you could have some other powers (Intergang, perhaps), you could set up a sequence where the bad guys do their tricks, wow the audience, and then get their clocks CLEANED by Superman. You can't make the man hip...but you can make his powers hip Just an idea. No idea how that would work in a Singer film.

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I think they captured, even if a bit, the nervousness of Superman's appeal to kids. When the news coverage was showing us bits of Superman around the world (not enough! ), Clark nervously looks down at Jason to see if he is into it or not and smiles a bit to himself when the boy seems very interested. That is the big question...is Superman a relevant character to kids these days?

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exactly how it seemed to me, patrick. and i thought bosworth really stuck the landing.

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yikes....i feel violated just reading the review.

guess i'll be giving the comic a miss.

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i mentioned this earlier.


i think clark was acting nervous in case jason looked and saw they both looked like the same person.
kids notice these things.

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Just got back from Viewing #2. It works - it REALLY WORKS!
Maybe it's because it's July 4th, but I don't think that's the only reason.
The story's great. Kal-El's loneliness, Clark's reaction look of "should I do this/OK, here goes nothing" when he sees and hears about the plane's impending disasterous end, my reaction upon realizing that the title of Lois' article should have been "Why I Don't Need Superman", heck, even the "ballet" (which I prefered over the '78 "Can You Read My Mind" scene)... I could go on forever, but won't. I simply loved this movie and wish movie-makers well. It's probably been stated before, but this is a Superman
for our times. A realization that Superman is invulnerable to all but two things: Kryptonite and family. He knows he can't separate Lois and Richard. That just wouldn't be 'right' ("truth, justice, and all that stuff"). Superman and Lois' near kiss just crushed me. Because she knew it wouldn't be right. Time has passed and whatever happens happens. But she has the reassurance from Superman that he'll "always be around".
Yeah, I know - it sounds sappy, but as I said - the thing works!

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I'm convinced the film's emotionality will transcend it's initial theatrical release.

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I don't have time to go through all the posts, so I'll put in what I'm sure has been said before...

The new Lois Lane... meh. Nothing to great, nothing to bad about it...just sort of bland in the middle.

WAY too many referances to the first film. A nice nod here and there would be good, but I felt they where strapped for new material and therefore where drawing on the old too much...

Nice to see 50's Jimmy and Lois in there...

Lois's new boyfriend was a neat character to have around. Nice to see him and Superman working together at the end...

Nice touch to have the kid more or less figure out Clarks secret just by the different angle he was looking at..

Could have gotten a more built superman....this guy just looked kind of...ordinary. But he did look quite a bit like Christopher reeve...at the 'space fly by' end sequence, I almost thought it was Reeve...


Speaking ofthe new guy... anyone watch him on Letterman? Dave did everything but beat him over the head to get a personal story out of the guy....it seemed as if every few minutes he was saying, 'But, I'm here to promote the movie!" Or make some referance to the movie to get it back on track. He also didn't seem to find the 'alternate clip' of the movie very funny if memory serves. My father is the Leno watcher and said he was fine there..
Either he's a Leno fan, or he considers Dave a 'lesser show' and put his A personality on for the big gun...who knows?

I did like the 'surprise twist'. I didn't see it(I know, beat me over the head, I deserve it!) coming untill Lex delivered his line halfway through the movie...
There where some good jokes, and great action...I just left the theater feeling the same way I did after Episode one... It was OK... but been there, seen that already..

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Re-Different supermans...

I remember picking up one comic, because it had Superman in Lightning/Electricity form... WTF Was that about?

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i loved the red star on his ceiling...great touch...but one really nitpicky thing i hadnt seen others notice was i kinda missed the yellow "S" logo on the back of the cape...i dunno i always liked that.....yeah its silly

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I think the f/x team decided it would be too much of a pain to keep track of, so they nixed it. (I believe this is also why it did not appear in the animated series.)

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With Superman Returns, I was entertained.

Did it have that magic POP that Superman The Movie had? No. But no film since has. Batman Begins came close. STM was the first major comic book movie and had the perfect actor for the staring role. It also had the campy fun from the books. Sure the fx are very outdated by today, but the movie had great emotion, acting for the parts and fun. Some complain about the ending, but hey, if you can buy into that a man came from another planet, has super powers, you should be able to buy the ending. The wink at the end of the movie explains it all.

Returns was a very good film, not great. Very few films to I keep myself from being spoiled from rumors and such, and SR is one I wanted to go in without knowing anything.

The opening credits. A bit rushed, but awesome. As was the whole score. Superman has the best and most iconic score of any film ever made.

Routh did an awesome job. He had huge shoes to fill and did a great job doing it. I can buy him being Superman. Spacey was adequate. His Luthor was a little sadistic, but Hackman's was as well. Bosworth did a decent job as just about everyone did. I was pleased with all the acting and roles.

The FX and sound were awesome. I got all giddily inside when the Superman takes off and you see and hear the sonic boom. Supes taking the 50 cal to the chest and then the .50 to the eye was awesome. Him landing on the Krypton Island was great. There where so many iconic scenes as well. Him catching the Planet globe, stopping the nose of the plane and seeing the body ripple and lifting the Island away was great. That is Superman.

The one part of the film that was hard to take was Superman getting the **** beat out of him. I love horror movies. I love the violence of the recent Hills Have Eyes, Saw and The Devils Rejects (one of the best movies last year). I love seeing Jason smash someone's head with his hands, the more gore the better. But Supes getting dragged by his head and kicked and held underwater was very violent. It was shocking. I felt bad. But you know it is exactly what would happen in real life if there was a Superman that was robbed of his powers and surrounded by his enemies. I guarantee this scene is what got Superman Returns it's PG-13 rating.

Did the movie drag? A bit in places. But I think almost every movie has dragging parts. I think some just can't enjoy a slow building movie (I love the pace of the Lost TV show). I think the hospital bit could have been cut way down or even taken out. I have no problem with the length. The more time the better. I am so glad they didn't cram everything into 90 min like the X-men 1 and 3.

The kid. I have no problem with it. It's adds a little more humanity to Superman. The kid actor did a great job as well.

I'll see it again in the theaters and will be buying the Super Duper Superman DVD Box set later this year as well.