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*** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 1500
6/30/06 at 10:59am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Robert,

For me, Clark doubting whether he wants to be Superman any longer was the only part that's truly missing and the funny thing is, that scene is in the film...it just got cut in half to the scene we have now....I hope he extends that particular scene and end it with Clark, looking in the mirror, with he suit on and his glasses. Again, for me, that's all that needs to be put back into the film.

I'd also cut the doctors attempts to reviving Superman. Cool as hell idea but its too funny considering the situation and drama at the time. I'd also cut out Luthor's coda at the end. Not needed.

As for Luthor's plan, I truly believe that once he saw Superman had returned, he plan changed to revenge. Why else would he lace the landmass with Kryptonite? He had enough crystals to make as many landmasses as he wanted. Why lace it with Kryptonite?
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post #182 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:07am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

There were a lot of great ideas in the film that went, largely, unexplored. I mean, surely they had a better explanation for his absence than a few throwaway lines of dialogue?

I was really surprised that Singer took so long to tell this story, yet still left out so much. After all, he didn't even need to spend an hour telling an origin story the way Donner did.
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post #183 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:11am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory S.
Why else would he lace the landmass with Kryptonite? He had enough crystals to make as many landmasses as he wanted. Why lace it with Kryptonite?

He knew Superman would be showing up to stop him, so he took the extra precaution.

If he had solely wanted revenge, he should've created New Krypton in the middle of the Arctic. This is what I assumed he was going to do from the trailers: Simulate a Kryptonian environment on Earth, effectively rendering Superman powerless and then stranding him there. (In essence, placing Superman in prison.)
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post #184 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:11am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

James,

The possibility of Krypton still existing in some form isn't a good enough reason to leave?
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post #185 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:23am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory S.
The possibility of Krypton still existing in some form isn't a good enough reason to leave?

Not when you consider that the entire film is built around the ramifications the trip had on Earth. After all, the animated series had Superman exploring Krypton's remains, yet it didn't result in the world 'moving on'. Here, they purposely made it a big deal, and touched on many questions, yet much of it got left on the cutting room floor.

Why did he want to go? Was it because of the discovery of Zod and Co.? Wouldn't he make sure the discoveries weren't just an elaborate ploy? Wouldn't he take precautions to make sure the world would be safe without him? Wouldn't he alert the major world leaders? Wouldn't he make sure he had no responsibilites- such as a court date? Did the world blame him for his absence? Did he blame himself? etc.
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post #186 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:28am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

James,

You can only get some much info about your heritage through crystals. If there's the slightest chance that there are remanants and possible survivors of his people, I can see his need to go. It's implied in the film.

And sure, there are major ramifications of him leaving the Earth. But, again, we're talking family here. He had to see for himself. I can understand that. He had to make sure that he was truly the last because deep down, we all know that he doesn't want to be the last.

How can Superman take precautions for the Planet Earth?
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post #187 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:44am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

My theory behind all the excised scenes is this: Warner Bros. inked a deal to distribute the film to IMAX screens way back in November 2005, probably long before the final cut was assembled. The IMAX DMR process imposed a 150-minute cap on the running time, and as those of you who saw it on the ultra-big screen may have noticed, the credits were drastically truncated to make the cut. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the full length of the film was much closer to three hours, but Singer had to trim scenes to make it all work for IMAX.

Anyway, I hope that's the reason for all the missing scenes others have described here. In my mind, that makes a director's cut DVD practically inevitable. That is, if my theory holds water.
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post #188 of 1500
6/30/06 at 11:47am

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Bryan,

Singer recently said that he had a cut that was just under three hours before he showed it to friends and family. And that's when he made the tough decisions on the film.

But, I never really thought of the IMAX angle before. You could be right.
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post #189 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:11pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

that 2:51 cut HAS to make the DVD if this film is going to go from middling to good reviews, from good reviews to great reviews.
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post #190 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:16pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Robert,

We'll see. I'm just not sure if it will. The deleted scenes will show up on the DVD for sure, but a new cut? Up in the air. Maybe for HD. That would be nice.

Also, does that cut include the return to Krypton or no? I still haven't figured that out yet. I don't think it did. From what I've read, that sequences was cut way before Singer had a screening for friends and family.
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post #191 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:23pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Even "Hulk" which was labeled as a bomb actually broken even domestic and did fair foreign ($246M combined)
Only when using fuzzy math to directly compare total box office grosses to production budget.

The studio only gets back about 60% of the grosses in rental fees. The remainder is taken by the theaters.

So, "HULK" only brought back about $80m in domestic rentals for the studio. With a production budget of $137m, that's a $57m loss.

The numbers are a bit better when considering the worldwide grosses. The studio brought home about $147m, for what appears to be a $10m profit. But beyond the production numbers, there was probably significant marketing money spent which would push the numbers into the red again.

WRT to Superman Returns, I'll still probably check it out in theaters despite the mixed reviews here.

I just can't figure out how some of you have managed to see it 3 times already in just 2 days, when I can't yet figure out when I'll be able to see it for the first time.

Quote:
The deleted scenes will show up on the DVD for sure, but a new cut? Up in the air.
I would say it depends on the box office. However, considering we've got alternate/director's cuts on flops such as Alexander, Kingdom of Heaven, and King Arthur, I guess it probably isn't as much of a factor as one might think.
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post #192 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:25pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Those deleted scenes sound fairly crucial to me. At least in my understanding of the thematic point. Fining your way home. Every scene of Clark is on earth. Very little introspection is allowed by Clark. No setup exists for his journey...it's over before the film begins. I believe, however brief, those scenes are critical to the theme. I don't care how I see them...I just want to see them.

Adam, I didn't think Lois was a bitch because of what she said. It was her body language, her tone, her everything. It didn't help that she started on the wrong foot with me. I'll try to be more forgiving during a second screening.
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post #193 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:27pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Wow...that's some good information, Robert. Is that all from the novelization? Is it in a graphic novel form anywhere?

As for Luthor - I LOVE the idea that he plants the Krypton story. Nice touch.

I agree he just wants to be powerful and ruler over Crystal-Land. Unfortunately, they DO add the 'land deal' dialogue that overrides that. But, the real problem I have with the logic of the planis that his island destroys the U.S. There wouldn't be much of a world to lord over if the U.S. were destroyed. He should just build his continent out in the ocean and threaten to have precious metals, gems, and bio-crystal weapons of massive power and have the world bow to him. Better plan.
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post #194 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:28pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Chuck,

The most crucial of the Clark scenes in Smallville is the extended version of the scene we get with Martha in the living room.

It is in the rest of that scene that he questions whether or not he's that person anymore. He tells Martha that he'd like to stay her and work on the farm. She lets him know that farm work isn't what he's here to do. Martha then quotes Jonathan from Superman The Movie....then, she also mentions Lois and then states that the world could always use good reporters.

Ben Hubbard shows up(Bingo tournament) and then Martha throws the bombshell on him that she's actually selling the farm and moving up to Montana with Ben. The scene ends with Clark wearing his Superman suit and wearing his glasses, looking into a mirror.
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post #195 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:34pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Which is why I was concerned those scenes were getting cut, they add alot to his feelings of alienation and where do I belong

The more I think about the movie the more I like it and Im really looking foward to seeing it again.

It ranks pretty high for me - under the first Superman, Batman Begins and Spiderman 2. Id have to think about it if I made a list but its got to be around with X2 which I also think was great but flawed.

I thought this was significantly better than X3TLS.
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post #196 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:34pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory S.
You can only get some much info about your heritage through crystals. If there's the slightest chance that there are remanants and possible survivors of his people, I can see his need to go. It's implied in the film.

I just think the trip ultimately comes across as little more than a gimmick. It's clear that the Richard/Jason angle was the basket where Singer wanted to place all of his eggs.

Perhaps I was wanting more of an imaginative backstory for the trip, as well as more of him dealing with the fallout. The scene early on where he watches news reports had me expecting a much different film.
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post #197 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:36pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

JonZ,

Again, That particular scene I described is the most crucial and as it is in the film, we get half. There had to be a reason why it was cut. The flashbacks in Smallville really add nothing.

There was the other scene were Clark looks through a stack of newspapers and it is there that he reads Lois' article. But, I like that he finds out at the Daily Planet. The reason being is because he's going back there thinking everything is okay. But, when he sees that article, it hits him hard...hence the reason he needs a drink with Jimmy.
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post #198 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:46pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

I dunno, I think I prefer it with him KNOWING what he's running into, and doing it anyway. The challenge is totally different for him, and he knows it, but he's still Superman: He's still going to tackle it, even if he doesn't know how. He knows Lois doesn't think he's necessary anymore. And while he's walking around, it really hits him how hard just being Clark Kent is going to be--and then it's underlined by the plaque--and the picture.

THE PICTURE is why he needs a drink. Not the article.
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post #199 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:49pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Robert,

Interesting way to look at it.
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post #200 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:50pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

I was planning on watching Superman Returns on IMAX 3D, but the local IMAX theater is sold out through the weekend! Is it worth it to catch this on IMAX, or is a conventional (DLP) theater good enough?
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post #201 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:51pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Richard,

I've seen it twice in DLP. That worked absolutely fine for me. Gorgeous looking film in DLP.
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post #202 of 1500
6/30/06 at 12:52pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
Wow...that's some good information, Robert. Is that all from the novelization? Is it in a graphic novel form anywhere?

Yes this is the kind of backstory I was expecting from the film.
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post #203 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:02pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Cory: Well, that picture is the one thing he wasn't expecting. He knew it was gonna be tough, he knew what Lois was thinking--but he had no clue Lois had a man and a kid. That's when he needs the drink. The plaque was just a tough reminder of what he was up against. He was PREPARED for that, or as prepared as he was gonna be. But the family? That's what floored him.

Again, the scene still works if you pull all that out of the movie, but like with the rooftop scene, it ends up feeling a lot more thin. It simply becomes all about getting Lois back, and that's only HALF the motivation--and honestly, I think it's really the lesser half. It still works, it just doesn't work nearly as well.

Quentin: Some of that is in the novelization, yeah. A lot of it is gleaned from pre-production stuff, his video blogs, early trailers, production photographs. I was working out my old Star Wars Spoilerhead jones on this movie for awhile there so I soaked up a lot of info in the past few months about what was planned and what was supposed to go down, much like Cory seems to have done.

I don't know if the graphic novel adaptation of this movie is going to include this stuff, however. It might just adhere to the film rather faithfully.
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post #204 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:09pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Robert,

Again, interesting points.

Speaking about the rooftop scene, that scene really got to me. And the beauty of that scene is not only the look of it but Ottman's score during that scene. Listening to it now without the images, I still get that feeling from the film and that particular scene.

It's easily the best cue in Ottman's score.
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post #205 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:13pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

I agree, the blending of his new "personal theme" for Superman along with working in the classic Williams "Love Theme" is damn near flawless. I love Paul Scott's opinions, although I often go "Okay, well" while reading them, and I'm guaranteed a genuine "oh, man, WTF" with his stuff--and his reading of Ottman's score is my "ohhhh, Paul..what?" moment. The score is doing so much of the heavy lifting in this movie, which is odd because the same man EDITED the film, and the score wouldn't have to pull so much weight if it'd been chopped together correctly.

But Ottman really does nail the score. The new Luthor theme is much better, the Personal theme is nice (although earlier in the thread people have pointed out that it sounds utterly plagiarized from, oddly enough, two completely different pieces of music. The names escape me, though) and he weaves them all in pretty effortlessly with Williams work and his own incidental and non-thematic action cues.
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post #206 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:24pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Robert Anthony,

Those additional Smallville scenes you mentioned on the last page sound like they are essential to the film. The theatrical cut did not really explore the idea that the world had moved on after Superman's departure. Seeing the title of Lois's article, "Why the World Doesn't Need Superman" came off to me as really meaning "Why I Don't Need Superman".

The brief Smallville scene was one of the more disappointing parts of the film for me. I hope the deleted scenes (or alternate cut) on the DVD help flesh out this portion of the film.
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post #207 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:39pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

I wouldn't say they were crucial. It just gives the current film more than what's implied now.
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post #208 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:41pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Cory, Robert, does the novel have the text of Why the World Doesn't Need Superman?
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post #209 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:43pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Kirk,

No. There is no text within the novel. I'm pretty sure on that but I'll look again.

Kirk, I'm a liar. There is text.

"People have always longed for gods, messiahs, and saviors to swoop down from the sky and deliver them from their troubles. But in the end, these saviors always leave, and we are faced with the same troubles that were there from the beginning. So, instead of facing them ourselves, we wait for the savior to return. But the savior never does, and we realize it was better he had never come at all."

-Lois Lane.
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post #210 of 1500
6/30/06 at 1:44pm

Re: *** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory S.
How can Superman take precautions for the Planet Earth?

Securing the Fortress and its advanced alien technology, for starters...especially considering his archnemesis knows its location.
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