*** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread - Page 6

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I believe there was supposed to be a giant mechanical spider in the third act.

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But in a later Jon Peters production, Wild Wild West, you do see something resembling a big spider after all in that film... (Kevin Smith commented on this ironic development while going through his own adventures of being brought abroad to write the screenplay for Superman almost a decade ago).

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Just saw the film for the third time.

The characters and story still work, and it is feeling less and less like the Donner film (though I never got a overly strong impression of that from the beginning).

The movie got out at about 1:30 am, to an applause. The two women I was with, again newbies to Superman, were in tears.

Something that stood out even more for me tonight, is that Ottman's score really shines in this movie, even in the moments without William's themes.

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Taking a step back from everything ... after all the rumors, talk of all the different iterations, think about how far we've come from Batman & Robin and Superman IV to Batman Begins and Superman Returns.

Warner Bros. really has done it with both of these franchises, and yes, they deserve some applause for finally getting both of them right.

Funny thing is, Superman Returns isn't so bright/colorful that its version of Superman would be completely out of place with Batman next to him.

They could definitely do a small Superman cameo in a Batman film or vice versa and not have it seem completely strange (imagine Donner's Superman in Burton's Batman).

Both the "Begins" universe and the "Returns" universe seem to me like they could co-exist.

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Actually Holadem, that genius would be me. And I am a genius, because I definitely would have come up with a much better plan to thwart Superman than raising Kryptonian landmass from the earth .

Anyway, if you're trying to call me out just say my name man, I think enough people on this forum know who I am.

And if it makes you feel better, hey I was wrong, I'm man enough to admit it.

Actually, Paul Scott hit it much closer to the mark than I did, afterall, he did state that Superman Returns would get many more mixed reviews than Batman Begins.

Anyway, I gotta go.

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One thing made me laugh.. a lot... from the review thread:


Am I the only one who thought of the Kevin Smith / Mallrats type argument about a baby superman kicking himself out of the womb and killing lois while she was pregnant?

Ok, that having been said.. the reference to the DC/Marvel comparables in the movies is a bit ridiculous, in the sense of: who cares? I don't care if a character is DC or Marvel, as long as the movie is worth watching. And, FYI, some movies from both franchise have done well.. and some have bombed.

Here's a short list of films by both that bombed:

DC:

Supergirl
The Return of Swamp Thing
Steel
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Catwoman
Constantine

Marvel bombs:

Howard the Duck
Daredevil
Elektra

While some movies didn't have critical success (like Blade Trinity, as an example) they managed not to lose money. Even "Hulk" which was labeled as a bomb actually broken even domestic and did fair foreign ($246M combined)

Now, here's what both have under production:

DC:

Wonder Woman (2007) which they hope will be the first female lead superhero movie to make money (after failures of SuperGirl and Catwoman)
The Flash (2008)
BB Sequel (2008)
Green Lanter (2009)

Marvel under production:
Ghost Rider (2007)
Spiderman 3 (2007)
Fantastic Four: The Next Chapter (2007)
Wolverine (2007)
Magneto (2008)
Punisher 2 (2008)
Iron Man (2009)
Captain America (2009)
Thor (2009)

Both franchises, DC and Marvel, have some great potential stories and movies in their stable. And so there is nothing really gained by a pissing contest over which comic makes better movies. Hell, I'd love to see something like Gaiman's "Sandman" come to the theater

But as to this film.. Superman as a character has always been one that I had trouble really liking. Because he as a character had no real character flaws and was unstoppable, with the exception of a rare rock, the storylines at times felt contrived.

This movie, however, felt to me just like a rehash of the first superman movie, almost beat for beat. And I didn't think it did a very good job of it. I understand others are really pumped up and love it, and that's great, I guess I was just more dissappointed.

I think part of what makes Spiderman grab that high air at the box office is that a lot of people can feel as though they can relate to Spiderman. A guy who struggles with whether or not what he's doing is the right thing, who has his own internal battles and has to take risks to succeed. I think that's why Batman Begins did so well - people can relate to a vigilante. I still believe Batman Mask of the Phantasm is the best of all the DC movies, but that's a different story.

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good grief- what an opportune time to chime in (with my own mixed feelings).

just some random spoilerish thoughts that wouldn't be appropriate in the review thread

- got a chuckle out of seeing the General Mills brand cereal box in one of the shots. The Cheerios box in the first film was my first consicious exposure to product placement (this one probably wouldn't qualify as I could barely make out the Cinnamon Toast logo)
- the farm flashbacks could easily have been cut. They felt every inch to me like gratuitous flashback scenes and had no thematic significance to anything else in the film that I could tell. I would have rather the time spent in a conversational/expositional scene between Clark and Martha (although from what I gather as written that may not have been time spent any better anyway)
- The plane rescue was worth the gas money alone (since my ticket was courtesy free movie cash), and is no doubt going to be right up there with the ESB scene from Kong as far as constant rotation HD DVD demo material goes.
- like Kong, I doubt I will be watching the whole movie again much if at all
- Loved the kid. Seriously. He was exactly as I was hoping he would be an nothing like I feared. I generally would agree with Eberts review and criticisms of the film save for this one regard. It would have been a gross cliche to have the kid interact in a smart alecky fashion with the adults, and for that reason alone people are right in questioning how tight the cinch is on Eberts marble bag.
Kudos to the young actor and Singers direction of him. Next to the spfx, he was probably the biggest single thing that I felt was right about the film.
- Loved his little out of frame asthma attack in the newsroom too.
- Hated the Ottman score. Like the screenplay I thought it was seriously uninspired and the only note(pi) I took of it was the seemingly eternal recurrence of the Supe theme every single time the guy makes an entrance. The rest I found to be genial white noise. Never thought I would appreciate Ken Thorne.
- Thought Spacey was awful for the most part. Like Lois/Bosworth it's hard for me to parse just how much was the horribly written character and how much was just an unappealing portrayl. Completely lacked the charm of Hackman, which surprised the hell out of me as ever since LA Confidential I've pictured Spacey as occupying roles that 25 years earlier would have gone to Hackman. However the character of Luthor was just mean, ugly and ultimately pretty damn stupid
- speaking of which, I could have bought the evil design here if it had been married to a more logical motivation- say for instance, a general nhilistic misanthropy from his prision stint, married to his congenitally narcissistic bent.
In that case, it would have made sense to destroy continents and re-shape the world with uninhabitable crystal structures- but as sold in this film (because, good gosh that was the motivation in the Donner original after all) "I'm gonna make a buck of of it" just makes no lick of sense- save for the fact that the young whippersnappers writing the screenplay seem to also have no sense. I got news for Bryan, it wasn't just Donner that made the first film a classic. For the next one, try hiring some writers with a little life experience and a wider frame of reference than merely what favorite films you both share.
- the bedside monologue- I wanted to tear my one good ear out. And people complain about Can You Read My Mind? This was infinitely worse to me because - Hello!-the words do not fit the sentiment- like much of the other braindead 'homages' in the film the context is wholly inappropriate. Is Kal-El that much of a moron that he couldn't have evoked some actual personal expression in that scene? and Why on earth is he so delighted? Knowing that he has a child that has already bonded with another father figure, knowing that the mother is using that father figure...what the hell in this situation is there to be so smug and optimistic about? Another case where a film cashes in on sentimental BS rather than honestly look at what it is presenting and dealing with the ramifications (not that I actually wanted this movie to drag on any longer...)

other than those and a few other annoyances, I did enjoy myself for the most part.

my favorite review so far I think was on AICN.
"This film doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it a sequel? Is it a remake? Is it a James Marsden sea plane adventure?"

___________

after posting this i went back and started to actually read the thread- so far Rob Gardiner and I are sympatico on a lot of points, and Rob makes the case for them more efficently than I do.
Although we diverge radically on a few points.

exactly. And this is one reason I fail to see Singer as a 'great' director- even if you only append that to 'a great director of comic book properties'.

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I really liked it.

A agree with the complaints abotu Luthor as others have stated.

I gotta say this movie looked stunning, from the opening sequence to the end. The only part that that was iffy was when young clark was running and jumping in Smallville.

I thought Brandon was great in th epart but Clark needs a little work.

This movie was SO loud where I saw it, unfortunately it was the worst theater experience I can remember. A group of kids were so noisy including one on a cellphone. When I said to be quiet I was told to go F myself, so I actually had to sink so low as to stand up and threaten them to get them to be quiet.

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I agree with Pete that after seeing the film, I could see Batman's Bale on-screen with Routh's Superman. I could see them coexisting in the same cinematic space, and I bet it would be something special. It'd be nice to see Singer and Nolan just use a "confiding in each" scene in either of the sequels. Be a little thrill for fans of both (and a big surprise for the audience), and could also really illuminate both characters.

I agree that DC has really gotten their big two on track. I may see Supes as a strong 7.5 (and BB as a 10, with flaws ), but both are certainly on track. The continuity of directors (and visions) is going to help. We just need Singer to come around on Clark.

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the 10:45 show I saw had maybe 2 dozen people in it, plenty of space and no crowd 'issues'. The coming attractions were painfully loud, and i was contemplating moving all the way to the back of the theater to get farther away from the front speakers, but the feature was a little more toned down.

dipping further into the thread I'm impressed with the exchanges between Patrick, Chuck , and Rob. Very thoughtful discussion and excellant points all around.


Though I still have to lament why people feel the need to re-make films that were already fine to begin with.
Supergirl is a film that needs to be remade, for pete's sake

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Chuck,

I had that same idea the other day about Routh and Bale...just having their respective directors direct their scenes and when they come together, just collaborate on the scene...although that probably wouldn't work.

But, you know WB has to be thinking about it, considering they got these two franchises off the ground with the right actors playing the lead roles.

Again, probably never going to happen but you just know the execs at WB are whispering it in the halls.

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"Why on earth is he so delighted? Knowing that he has a child that has already bonded with another father figure, knowing that the mother is using that father figure...what the hell in this situation is there to be so smug and optimistic about? "

Jor-El didn't seem too upset that his son was going to bond with somebody else. Jor-El and Kal-El were both pleased that Krypton would live on through their sons, and all the other stuff doesn't matter as much...

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He's delighted because he is not the Last Son of Krypton. His parent's legacy can continue, as can his.

He loves the mother and respects the father. Jason is a good boy, and he can be a part of his life. Not his ideal...but certainly worthy. It mirrors his own situation.

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my theater sold so many tickets on Tuesday night they had to open another room. which was mine, that was 3/4 of the way full, and the other one was full. it seems to be a hit or miss, a friend of mine saw it in another theater and he said it was barely full.

I certainly enjoyed the movie and am looking forward to seeing it tomorrow on IMAX. There were a number of highlights for me, but two little distractions. 1) I was expecting more material when Clark was in Smallville. 2) After the reveal of Jason, I was expecting him to do something to help Supes, but nothing happened.
Clark having a son brings up the whole Kevin Smith "Mallrats" conversation between Brody and T.S.

Oh I did also like having some throw backs to old comic book moments, the shot of the first Superman comic, Perry's "Great Caeser's Ghost" and so forth. Nice nods.

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I'm with you 100% on the Smallville flashback. What was the point of that? I would have loved for more of a conversation between Clark and Ma, or more screen time for Daily Planet Clark.

As far as Spacey is concerned, he gets better for me every time I see the movie. He IS scary and threatening, Hackman to me never was.

I really don't see why the screenwriters are young is a problem. As a matter of fact, their plot to kill Superman is much more clever than the original's Kryptonite in a box. Their ability to write genuinely emotional scenes for an immortal being is staggering. I loved the scene on the Planet roof when Superman is genuinely hurt about Lois' article. I love the kid asking his mother if Superman is going to be alright, because he likes him. I like their ability to show Lois Lane as a reporter, something never really accomplished in the other films.

Superman's monologue to his son at the end may not have work for you, Paul, but the two people I was with were in tears. As Chuck and other have been saying, Superman is no longer alone in the world. He has THAT much more purpose, now having a son.

I am glad that overall you enjoyed yourself Paul

Just a general thought here as well, not really aimed at anyone: For some people that complain that Superman Returns was too much of a remake (which I still don't see), there's an awful lot of "They should have done it this way, like the original" sentiments being expressed here.

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I agreed on the pointlessness of the Smallville scenes as well. Sure, hardcore fans are delighted, but it does nothing for me storywise.

I was at the edge of my seat (not in a good way) waiting for that one.

I am not one of them.

--
H -

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"my theater sold so many tickets on Tuesday night they had to open another room."

I saw it at 7:45 last night and was suprised there were only about 40 people in the theater.

I cant wait to see it again, hopefully on sunday morning. I was blown away by some of the photography on this. The meteor landing, airplane scene and when he lifts the krypton fortess was worth the price of admission alone.

Was suprised to see Pita Wilson too.

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All I have to say is that when Superman/Clark returned in the spaceship, the sound system in the IMAX theater I saw the movie in dang near rattled my teeth outta my head! Nothing else, sound-wise, quite matched that moment.

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Here are my ratings for current DC films: Superman Returns 9/10-So beautifuly filmed with respect to the character, near Flawless in it's presentation. Although Brandon Routh was a great Superman, his Clark was sort of lost in the shuffle.

Batman Begins 7.5/10.-I truly believe that Batman Begins has been very, very overrated. It deserves respect for finally getting the Batman character right, and it was very enjoyable, but a the story could have been a lot more solid. Also needed a better villian. Scarecrow was not the best choice.

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Many of you are making comments in your reviews that you would have liked to seen a new spin put on Superman. I'm a little confused at what you would have done to accomplish this.

In my opinion, Superman is Superman. The Superman in this movie did all of the things Superman does. He used his Superhuman strength to stop objects from falling on people. He used his Superhearing to listen in on conversations. He cut rock from the earth with his eyes, he used X-Ray Vision to see through walls. He was much more a being of action, than dialogue. He obviously still has a thing for Lois Lane. He was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive. I mean c'mon guys, Singer wasn't trying to re-invent the wheel here!

I seriously can't figure out what all of the negativity is about, and why so many people are disgusted that he(Singer) held true to the original Donner concept of Superman. The first two movies were incredible, and I for one think he did an excellent job of taking from that, while at the same time making a great and NEW movie. It was not a remake!

I wish all of you guys would go see it again, and just watch the stinking movie, and enjoy it for what it is.

Just like me, all of you are intitled to your own opinions, but I have strong feelings for this movie, and I had to make my gripes known, just as you have. If you don't like it, I'm probably not going to change that. I would just like a clearer picture of what you were wanting??? I've seen a lot of bashing, but very little discussion on what you needed from the movie to make it live up to your expectations.

Hopefully the box office numbers show that there are plenty of people that see this movie as I do. A complete Masterpiece!

JC

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Batman Begins, in addition to being a kickin' superhero origin story, was a terrific meditation on the nature of fear. Scarecrow was the perfect villain to personify that particular theme. Of course, if you're looking for formidable Batman baddies, you've got Joker and Two-Face coming in a couple years.

I've been trying to understand the whole issue with Superman leaving earth for five years without telling anyone why he was leaving, where he was going, and how long he'd be gone. Not Lois. Not even Martha.

Re-watching Superman: The Movie a few nights ago, Jor-El made passing reference to relativity and later added that he had been dead for many thousands of Kal-El's years, even though Kal-El made the journey to earth in only 3-4 years' time relative to his frame of reference. Perhaps after astronomers found remnants of Krypton Superman thought he'd just take a quick jaunt out there at light speed (or faster? Could he beat the Borg in an intergalactic marathon?) to take a look. The time that trip took may not have been that long for him, but he's surprised to come back and find that five years have passed on earth.

Of course, that theory raises at least two questions: how could Superman forget what he knows about relativity? And could the empowering effects of earth's sun sustain him in his journey? Finally, it fails to explain an element that WAS seen in the movie: where did he get his spacecraft from?

Yeah, we need to see that deleted scene.

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I find it amusing that people look at the Lois/Superman dynamic in this film and see the problem lies with Lois' behavior towards the Man of Steel. I see a creepy stalker who dropped Lois like a hot potato after their night of nookie and left for 5 years then comes back, expecting her to be waiting for him. So much for the Big Blue Boy Scout.

"Why the World Doesn't Need Superman" is mild compared to what I would have done.

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Bryan,

Actually, I think Martha knew he left. I mean, in the film, she states that "If your father was alive, he would've never let you go." I think that implies that she knew he left. (As a bit of cheat, in the Prequel Comic for Ma Kent, he told her that he was leaving.) But again, that line infers it.

With Lois, Clark does state in a round about way why he didn't say goodbye...essentially, if he confronted her on that issue, just seeing her would've made him stay. But with the possiblity of his heritage being alive out there in space, he had to at least see for himself. I can definitely buy that. This might be his one opportunity to have some closeness or peace with this issue for him. He took a chance and of course, what he was really searching for was right at home...his real home, now.

I bought it completely.

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Understood. I remember Martha's line now, but I have absolutely no recollection of that dialogue between Lois and Clark. I'll keep an ear out for it the next time I see the movie. Thanks, Cory.

I'm still interested in seeing that deleted scene, ideally re-incorporated into the movie in some future DVD incarnation.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, was that Lois/Clark scene as she was leaving the Daily Planet and trying to hail a cab? I think I might be recalling it now.

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Bryan,

That's the scene. He's trying to explain himself but Lois really isn't listen until he says "maybe he couldn't say goodbye" and then she snaps at Clark.

Again, from how I interrpreted it, if he went to Lois to say goodbye, he wouldn't have left. That's how much hold Lois has over his heart. And he needed to find out about the remenants of Krypton. That's why he's so sorry he left during their night conversation above Metropolis.

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Overall, I liked the movie. Chalk me up as one of its supporters.

One element I really liked was the matching of Lex's statement about prison--"In there, the greatest criminal mind the world has ever seen is worth less than a carton of cigarettes and a sharp piece of metal in your pocket"--with the way he shanked Superman in the side with a kryptonite shiv. That's some dark stuff, and hints at both his resentment of his imprisonment and his devolvement from aloof super-crook into the kind of common criminal he despised when he went in there.

And oddly, at the IMAX showing I saw (and I agree about the sound during Kal-El's return to Smallville being incredible), the boat-sinking sequence wasn't in 3-D (only the Smallville flashback, the plane rescue, and the ending flight were). There was a brief flash of the "put your glasses on" icon, but it didn't flash repeatedly, and after putting my glasses on, I noticed the view from my right eye was too dark, so I took them off, and the entire sequence remained in 2-D. Really weird, and not something I would expect would vary from theater to theater. Anybody else experience this in another theater? (I was at the IMAX at Cinema de Lux Stonybrook in Louisville.)

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As I stated in my review, I think a few of the problems in the film would have been fixed if it had been edited better. Not just tighter, but re-inserting scenes that WERE shot and then discarded. The problem is the movie is already so languid in spots that tacking another 20 minutes into the film would be like murder, I think.

Problems that would at least be addressed with some deleted scenes re-inserted:

The trip to Krypton: Superman apparently really gets his mind blown in that ship, looking at all the destruction. It's shot to be very awe-inspiring and yet saddening. Lots of really beautiful shots in here as well, plus it helps hammer home just what it is that has Clark feeling so weak and drained when he gets back. Plus I think it would have ended up explaining WHY he's so weak and drained when he gets back. He was certainly rather spry and jumpy when he first landed in a spaceship from krypton. At age 3. Hell, he hoisted a truck for the hell of it just crawling out of the ship

Smallville: The flashback continued for quite a while there, he learns about his X-ray vision and finds his old ship in the barn. These shots were in some trailers. Should these have been added back in? Nah. Didn't need em, really. We know he has powers and we know how he got them, aside from some effects wank, the sequence is utterly Unneccessary

BUT: A key part of that Smallville sequence is Clark DOUBTING WHETHER HE WANTS TO BE SUPERMAN AT ALL. I mean that's a LARGE part of the sequence. He has a big talk with Martha about it, he goes downstairs and reads Lois' article for the first time, Martha and Ben talk to him about Martha finally settling down with Ben and selling the farm, and he's really, REALLY doubting whether he even wants to be Superman anymore. And as a matter of fact, after hanging around the house for awhile, Martha urges him to at least go be a REPORTER again. And THAT is why he hits Metropolis. Not to be Superman, but to be Clark Kent again.

His decision to be Superman again is hasty and completely instinctual. There's even a deleted scene that is played for a laugh during the beginning of the plane rescue that probably deflated some of the drama, but hammered on this point even harder: He was supposed to rip his shirt open in the alley--and find no S under there. He had left his suit in his briefcase, in the janitor's closet. He had to go back up to the daily planet and change in THERE, and then fly after the plane.

The dramatic weight all that would have added to the rescue would definitely have been helpful.

Plus it makes the rooftop interview with Lois a lot more meaningful because suddenly it's not just him trying to get Lois back--it's him trying to make sense of all his self-doubt. She wrote the article that made him seriously question if he should be in blue tights anymore. When he wants to know why, it's not just "Why don't you like me anymore" it's "Why am I irrelevant?" It's as much self-examination as it is trying to re-connect with Lois.

Just those two sequences, re-inserted, with the Young Clark in Smallville scenes excised, would have made the film resonate a lot more than it currently does. Sure, the film got the running time down, but it thinned the movie out considerably as far as emotional resonance goes.

Another odd cut--only half of Clark and Lois' "How hard is it to say goodbye" exchange in front of the Planet was actually in the film. There was a whole extra response from Clark that really explained Clark's hesitance, and it was just "Whooof" gone. Lois even references the deleted dialog from Clark's speech during the rooftop interview.

Also, an entire subplot revealing that Luthor, before going to jail, planted the NASA scientists story in order to trick Superman into leaving. Again, this is referenced in the rooftop interview--he mentions "the astronomers" but we never get that it was a huge deal in the papers and that Lex, in the end, masterminded it.

It also would have been nice to get the sense that Lex wasn't so much interested in Real Estate as he was becoming a world power. I think he just wanted to force people to live on his space rock, not sell things to them, alluding to Kryptonian weaponry and such. In the flick, it simply sounds like a land deal, but there's at least lip service paid to the fact it's not so much real estate, it's becoming the most important and powerful man in the world.