*** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Kael's [negative] review of the original (for perspective ): http://www.newyorker.com/archive/con...03fr_archive02

Reading the current reviews by Lane and Dargis, I wonder whether they have a capacity for idealism or willingness to look up to something. Yeah, perfect characters are boring. Except for Superman. He's the one that's allowed. I'm very cynical when it comes to Hollywood movies, but when Reeve winks at the camera at the end of S:TM, I'm inspired and spoken to. I admit it.

Ebert's review does concern me. Of anyone, I expected him to get it. I hope he's wrong, and I'll finally get to find out tonight...

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Ok, it was awesome, and Ebert has no soul. The east coast reviews should be coming in now. I'd bet money that this get overall positive reviews.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I disagree with Ebert, but I found the movie a bit of a letdown. I started a review thread to share my thoughts. Reviews only, of course. I also think it'll get overall positive reviews...it aims high, means well, and is technically excellent. But I depart from the gushing. Some of it awesome, some of it was tiresome.

Lois Lane was the real sticking point for me. Just unlikeable. And I'm easy to please

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Everybody's got opinions. There's no law that we have to agree with them.

I do find it a bit stunning how people make it out like Ebert's is the only negative review. At RottenTomatoes, the meter is hanging in at 79% right now which indicates that at least a few critics besides Ebert weren't enamored with the picture (the "Cream of the Crop" reviews are at 73%). In fact, the user ratings are ticking in below the main critics average at 73%, right inline with the "Cream of the Crop".

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

But the real question is, what did your wife think? She went in thinking it would be a turd, I believe you said.

*** Official SUPERMAN RETURNS Discussion Thread

Thanks for the review. I hope to check it out over the weekend. I loved Hackman's Luthor but I hoped Spacey could bring some Swimming With Sharks energy to it. Looks like it was a better marriage on paper than on the screen. Oh, well.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I found Lois to be really guarded towards Superman, not bitchy. Some people react to people a certain way, but it's always grounded in some form of pull towards one another, even if 5 years have passed without a simple "I've gotta jet." note. At this point in her life, she's got her son to think about, and things are just more complicated with Richard and the munchkin there. Lois has always been a persistent type A personality, which is why she gets the stories, but I think becoming a mother has tone down some of those qualities at times, and is reflected in Bosworth's performance.

This is how I know the audience was sucked into this new world of Superman on film: there was this annoying kid that was snickering and reading aloud the text on the screen, but as the film gained momentum, the kid simply shut up and was totally drawn into the film. The rest of my audience was so well behaved, I was totally impressed because there were quite a few kids and teens in the audience at my showing, and they were running their mouths before the movie started, and I was groaning about getting a crappy audience from the onset, but then their attention turned to the film, and stayed there throughout the running time of the film, and we had about 1/4 of the people stay through the entire credits. Of course, YMMV.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Saw it in IMAX...
Oh. My. God.

I liked Bosworth a lot more than I expected. The audience applauded at the end.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I think the the reunion scene between Lois and Superman works, at least it worked for me. If it were a stock on wall street, I'm buying!

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I just got back from this movie...Best movie this year. It's a love story first and foremost. If that bothers you, then chances are you won't like it. I really thought this movie was sad. I thought this was every bit as good as the first Spiderman and certainly as good as Batman Begins.

This superman at times reminds me of Chris Reeve so much, I got chills. there are certain scenes where he sounds and looks like Christopher Reeve..

Bottom line,

Don't miss this movie...BTW the new spidey trailer was at my theater

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Favorite moments:

-The plane sequence, especially the ending at the baseball field.

-Superman flying with Lois

-The sequence when Superman flies up to the sunlight, lifts New Krypton out of the ocean and into outer space, then falls back to Metropolis.

-Superman quoting Marlon Brado's lines from the first movie to Jason.

I was surprised the cut out the fact that Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Seeing this tom'w afternoon in IMAX 3-d.
mike G, your simple and eloquent enthusiastic review has me chuffed.
I don't even WANT to read Ebert's review as I truly thought tha man had lost his mind after Van Helsing!

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

The movie was funnier than I expected, which I welcomed.

I recall reading that Singer didn't know how to handle the Superman material until he thought of one great idea. I thought this idea would be the unraveling of why Superman had left Earth for a long period. Instead, it seems to be Superman having a child with Lois, which the vast majority of people figured out just by watching the trailer. It is wholly unsatisfying to see him say "I was there, but nothing else was." Perhaps Singer and his writers would make something more of this in a sequel.

If anywhere Lois was bitchy, I thought it was her reaction to Clark saying "relationship." Her general attitude towards Clark was pretty cold. It doesn't really give the feeling that they were good friends before. I like how Lois is seen to be a fairly serious reporter, but her going into the yacht with her son was pretty dumb, with her too late mention of "i think this is a bad idea."

The score itself is pretty good, but goes to another level when using the Williams material. What soundtrack.net had noted as the "personal" theme is not ineffective, but it feels like an incomplete melody. Williams always talks about laboring over a few simple notes, to make the audience feel that the melody is inevitable and whole. That is lacking in the new theme. Ottman's use of the Williams material is strongest on his take with the Smallville theme, but I thought the March was too fast, and the Planet Krypton material in the pre-credits was lackluster.

Feel bad about Martha Kent standing in the crowd with everyone else. Here's an old widow whose son left five years without any notice, comes back, but almost dies, and she cannot go and hug him.

I thought Routh was fine, and he doesn't weaken the movie, but not a stunning debut either.

There is one simple shot by Singer which I found rather joyful: when Superman pulls out the sunken half boat, Singer simply pulls away the camera, and it gives the impression of flight, but all they needed was a tall crane and some big fans.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Maybe I'm not being clear.

Ebert condems Superman Returns for elements which are present in similar movies (Batman Begins, Superman: The Movie).

I don't think anyone thinks it's inconcievable to dislike Superman Returns; this thread proves that there were more than a few skeptics, myself included.

I did see the 10PM showing tonight, and I'm still awestruck. It was not perfect, but I was very impressed. I may be one of Kate Bosworth's few supporters as well. Hats off to Brandon Routh and Bryan Singer as well.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

It was ok. I'll give it a generous 3 stars out of 4 because at least Singer and Co. had their heart in the right place. The problem is Singer was so enamored with Richard Donner's original Superman flick(and the parts of II that he directed) that he decided to essentially remake the movie, minus the first two acts in Krypton and Smallville.

Routh was perfect as Superman/Clark Kent and Kevin Spacey was pretty good as Lex Luthor(although I still prefer Hackman, especially playing off of Zod in II). Kate Bosworth was alright as Lois Lane, but she seemed pretty lifeless at times compared to Margot Kidder in the original.

Again, it all comes back to Singer recycling the original movie. When Chris Nolan relaunched the Batfranchise, he went in a whole new direction. Singer should've done the same. Keeping the Williams music, the whooshing title credits, and Marlon Brando as Jor-El was fine. Everything else should've been brand new.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

IMAX Engagements
http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/super...s_imax_dmr.htm

D-Cinema Engagements
http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/super...s_d_cinema.htm

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

For the time being, I'm somewhat let down. My first impression is that it could have used more plot to give the iconic stuff something to emerge from rather than being presented head on in large doses.

It's late though; and having had powerful preconceptions I could have missed a subtler thing than I was ready for. I'm seeing the IMAX version next week and I'm still looking foward to that.

Re: Superman Returns Review

IMAX Engagements
http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/super...s_imax_dmr.htm

D-Cinema Engagements
http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/super...s_d_cinema.htm

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I can back this up from my own personal experience. I swore up and down going in that if Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) , that I would riot. It happened, and I bought it completely because it was handled so well. This movie completely drew me in, and I bought everything. Sure, there were a few things that bugged me, but I can safely say this is the best movie I've seen since Revenge of the Sith. On that note, it's the first movie since ROTS that raised the hair on the back of my neck. I've waited my whole life pretty much to see this film, and Singer delivered, simple as that. Some have criticized Singer's embracing of the Donner film, but I applaud him for it. Maybe I'm just a sucker for sentimentality, but the minute that the Superman theme started up, I was hooked. The rest of the acknowledgements to the original were like touchtones along the way that enriched this film, but not in the sense that it was piggybacking off of the original, if that makes any sense. This movie is very well realized in its own right. I can't wait to see it again later this week on IMAX.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Just got back. Some quick thoughts.

Good, but not great.

Could have been a lot worse though, and should successfully relaunch the franchise.

Not really crazy about the "superkid" angle.

I didn't feel like we got enough time to know Superman ... but I guess he's kind of a robotic character anyway. Routh is definitely no Chris Reeve, but he's decent and likable enough. They need to ease up on the "plastic" look though ... I wonder if that was CG.

It was a little "colder" and a bit duller at times than what I'd expect from a Superman film. Kind of an odd mismash of the Donner versions of Singer's own style. It doesn't really have the sense of wonder/fantasy that the Donner version does. I will give credit for Singer for acknowleding and even embracing the Donner version though ... most director's probably would've just started from scratch.

Kate Bosworth isn't the "spunky" Lois Lane we're used to, but I got used to her rather quickly. She wasn't terrible as perhaps some feared.

The coolest thing was seeing the credits at the beginning done in the 1970s style ... I've only been able to watch the Superman films on TV/VHS ... so to see it on the big screen like that was awesome.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

this is post release discussion, so you know the drill. Spoilers in this post

Pacing was definitely a problem. While the movie seems to pretty much jump along right in Donner's footsteps almost every bit of the way, the problems are flip-flopped. Where Donner's pacing failed him as soon as Clark hit Metropolis, and the tone got way too comical and corny, Singer's pacing fails UNTIL Clark hits Metropolis, and then the movie stays a little too strait-laced and somber

Things that surprised me:

Lois' beatdown. That was sorta rough to watch.
Superman's beatdown. That was REALLY rough to watch. The animal, desperate noises coming out of Superman surprised me.
The Humor never felt forced. Spacey's reveal to Lois was pitch perfect.

I'm gonna stick it right up there next to Donner's. Better than Superman II. But it's not by a longshot anything approaching a perfect movie. Or even a great one. Neither is the first, at least not to me, not anymore, not divorced from the nostalgia I happily throw the dvd in, until the goodwill of nostalgia runs out and I'm left with raw, pure movie to drink in. the 78 movie grew stale. This one gets bland.

I didn't have any problems with the kid, however. One of the few key emotional moments in the movie happens when the kid very matter of factly, simply says "I like him." And that hit rather well. Finely directed moment. Also when he almost breaks down while apologizing to Lois in the bowels of the ship. Not bad for the little brat, scoring two of the most true-feeling emotional moments in the movie.

Sam Huntington also came out of this like a champ. I wish Routh had a little more to do, but what he did, he sold perfectly. I prefer his Clark Kent, actually, to Reeve's. And the Supermans are pretty close, too. Spacey lives for this sort of role, and I'm glad he's back playing a quality villain. Parker Posey didn't annoy me (and also managed to deftly underline, very matter-of-factly, how wrong it is to see Superman brutalized as he was) and James Marsden packed 3 times the impact into his one Superman movie than he did his entire X-Men oeuvre.

I ended up giving it a 7.5 if I had to grade it. It just has too many serious pacing problems to truly transcend. But then again--I had that problem with X-Men. and then Singer hit us with X-Men 2. So hopefully we get the same sort of jump in about 3 years.

But this will most definitely do for now.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Yeah ... I agree some of the violence was jarring (and not in a good way). It kind of gave the movie a really sombre feeling at times.

The other thing that surprised me is the flying sequences sometimes looked awkward and really fake.

I don't know if this was an intentional nod to the Donner versions or what. The flying scenes in the Matrix Reloaded looked a lot better.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Yeah, not to sound nitpicky (For the most part the Flying was ridiculously natural looking) but Supes last flyby in the movie, as he's leaving Metropolis before he hits the clouds and goes above--looked like oldschool classic optic printing over matte painting, and not digital compositing. No lie.

Also, cute little homage in a movie that overtly wallows in it: The train set sequence seems to play like a best of disaster sequence demo-reel for Supermans I and II, in some cases almost equaling the bad model work during the earthquake sequence in Superman I to a tee. I hope that was intentional, because I appreciated the dry humor involved in that.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

There were a few other subtle nods to the Donner version.

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but when Lex Luthor is stealing the rock from the museum ... the caption on the rock is that it was discovered in 1978, which of course is the year Superman: The Movie came out.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

From the review thread:

Incredibly disappointing.

Everyone was miscast. Routh, Bosworth, Spacey etc...No one stunk, they were just....O.K.

Long dull stretches. Very little action. Weak plot too. And an ending that just goes on, and on, and on.......There were moments of brilliance and promise but too little of each.

I loved the little nods to the '78 film but this film imo had none of that films' charm, excitement, inspired casting or sense of spectacle.

The sold out crowd seemed stunned during it's running time and there were more than a few walkouts. No cheering, laughing or clapping.

I'm in shock right now as I can't believe this is the best Singer and Co. could come up with.

The best way to desribe Superman Returns is that it's a movie where Superman just does a lot of LIFTING. That's about it.

Didn't hate it. Just, as I said, incredibly disappointing.

Forget Kryptonite, I really think bad word of mouth is going to kill Superman. I doubt it will reach $200 million.

I saw it with six people and we were ALL similarly saddened by how weak the film is. And I heard many disappointed grumbles from people walking out at the end.

Wow. I'm bummed.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Just read Ebert's review and it's spot on imo.

And regrading the pacing, I don't mind a slow pace as long as it's interesting. In Superman Returns, it's just dull.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Dave,
See, here's the thing. Ebert said that Bosworth's Lane was weak compared to Margot Kidder. NOT TRUE. Look, they're two different actresses playing the same role 30 years apart. What in God's name does Ebert want? If Bosworth mimicked Kidder, then that diminishes Bosworth's acting ability. Lane was written differently, but Lane's still that tough-as-nails reporter. Bosworth was GREAT as Lois. As for Ebert's "slow and plodding" crap, I hit the nail on the head when I said that this movie took its time and that's what surprised me the most about Ebert's review. This is classic cinema reborn, it tells a STORY. This is not Armageddon with MTV style editing.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

Spoilers below:






I think what this new development revealed in the coda does is basically give Superman a reason to be a better man. With his power, it's easy to be super, but does he have what it takes to be a good man going forward. He's spent 5 years looking back, but now, he's got everything in the world to live for to watch what develops in the future with proud, watchful eyes.

Re: Superman - Summer 2006

I never felt the missing five years with Routh. It made Lois cold and angry (one flight later and fine), and Eva Marie Saint was the only character to make it matter. For her minute. Her second scene was awesome though. Not being able to get to her son, and having to bear that worry. Positively biblical.

But the five years seemed like a ploy to get the Lois relationship antagonistic. Since we don't see his journey to dead Krypton, the resonance that might have had with Superman stepping onto Luthor's island (a recreation of his home) is gone.

The Luthor/Lane meeting is great...almost worth the tried and true (and hacky, sorry) romantic interest walks into danger to be saved later. I thought the flying scenes were outstanding.

A few hours later, and I still love the score. I still liked Routh. Marsden did a great job with a very tough position (though I kept thinking he was Cary Elwes). The kid was good. But I wanted more.

The devil in me wants to pick it apart (Lois and Richard live in, what, a $2 million dollar waterfront house, with a Seaplane and a view of Metropolis??? What does she make?!?). But I won't. I'm glad Superman is back, and like Robert, I hope 2 makes the same leap in storytelling and style that X2 did. It would be something to see.