The Real ID Act - Page 5

Re: The Real ID Act

Well so do I Lew and I didn't call for the prosecution of the Times. We can't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. Regardless of the party, it would rarely be in the country's best interest to advertise the details of our methods when searching for information that pertains to national security.

Re: The Real ID Act

"it would rarely be in the country's best interest to advertise the details of our methods"

Amongst the many, was there not a story (maybe hollywoodized but based on a real event?) during Gulf WI when a news crew was waiting on the beach for a Seal Team to arrive, and streaming footage in semi-live time.
Recording the secretive mission’s landing for American entertainment, posterity?

It boggles the mind.

Re: The Real ID Act

And as I also remember, Geraldo got in some deep doodoo for showing on a map the location of the troops he was embedded with.

There have to be secrets in war. There have to be secrets in life. I truly doubt the NY Times motive in this was "journalistic integrity". For them now to claim that they were merely trying to point out something that is working correctly is really ludicris. There are so many success stories out there in the war on terror that are not reported on, why chose to report on a "secret" one. It's farily transparent what their intent was.

To all who still claim we are losing rights and freedoms. . . imagine what would have happened to the NY Times if they had done this during WWII? Would there be any debate, or would they have been tried for treason? Seems to me this is a prime example of a freedom that has greatly expanded.

Re: The Real ID Act

That article in the New York Times did not come close to what some of you are posting, besides which it did not go into the details of what was being done. It would seem that one could disagree with the publishing of that article without making inaccurate comparisons that have no basis in fact.

What this has to do with the ID Act is a bit beyond me.

Re: The Real ID Act

Mary et al:
There is a film scheduled to open later this month (limited theatrical release; schedule available here) which delves into the topic of our discussion. I stumbled across the trailer during my weekly visit of Apple's movie trailer site. I found the 14-minute promo on the official movie site even more disconcerting than the trailer. I'm hoping for a screening here on campus; if not, I'll just wait for the film to arrive on DVD.

Re: The Real ID Act

It's interesting subject matter, but they lost me with "Determined to find the law that requires American citizens to pay income tax". I've got news for Mr. Russo: try starting with the constitution's Sixteenth Amendment:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

I also fail to see what the federal income tax has to do with the erosion of civil liberties. I mean, I don't like have a good chunk of my pay disappear from every paycheck, but I have no real doubt that it's legal.

Re: The Real ID Act

What this has to do with the ID Act is a bit beyond me.

Perhaps (I speak only for myself - a bear of little brain) but there are fascinations and rewards in more generalized dialogues and it is tiring to start non-ending sub topics for
details in threads which often lend themselves to creation of rambling, digressing or related tangents. Particularly in AHL.
...although I am also sure this must be a source of constant aggravation to they who prefer to "stay on target".

I was agreeing that, IMO media often acts irresponsibly in choosing WW&H they report. That media is overeager to spotlight information which should not be harped as a constant reminder, rather, by silence on the topic hope the opposition drifts to relaxation’s of self-policing methodology used in avoiding detection.

I think no one doubts the rising impact of media in what I will loosely term the, virtual zone of war.
I know impact has risen since the invention of information moving devices (the telegraph) and that General R.E. Lee took to reading the Northern papers avidly because he considered them highly useful (if not tide turning!) intelligence during the Civil War.

I’m for a separation of sorts...politics from security. If it is politics report it.
If it percents heavily to endangering tactical advantage our personal countries have in cold – hot conflicts, do not offer that information up when largest net effect is a degradation of degrees of effectiveness.
Unfortunately many tactical situations can include strong political bias’s, which creates a convoluted grey area which media should weigh carefully.

Thank you - Ken C - for the heads up.
”but they lost me” I love seeing it all, for the broader perspective checking any source brings to bear, but rarely (if ever?) accept anything; whole cloth.

Re: The Real ID Act

I did some quick research regarding the history and purpose of the sixteenth Amendment through Cornell University's Law School website. The ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment occurred in 1913. From their website:

What initially started as a mere curiosity on the issue of income tax on Americans led the writer/director to explore what other facets of daily life were affected by those involved with the court system, as well as various branches of the government. The focal point of this docudrama was the legality of income taxes, at least in the beginning. If you haven't seen the film trailer in its entirety, it is worth a second look.

I concur wholeheartedly. Nothing should ever be taken at face value, and I hope the film has the effect of not only elevating some degree of awareness of the system, but also inquisitiveness on the part of the viewer: asking more questions, undertaking their own research to see whether the info presented can be corroborated and/or refuted. I think a mindset borne out of apathy and complacency is every bit as dangerous as those who wish to physically harm us.

Re: The Real ID Act

One potential benefit from having the Times publish the information is that we can now use the tracking system to see what's changed since their announcement. Then we can scrutinize the anomolies as matters of interest.

Re: The Real ID Act

Also, many members of Congress only found out about the SWIFT program as a result of the Times article. That, if nothing else, seems like a valuable public interest.

Re: The Real ID Act

Countless articles If you google on the everyday headaches and costs which occur, - when required to carry a NIC.
Also while checking current articles there are many good arguments to be found written by security experts on why implementation in America could actually decrease security measures effectiveness at certain levels when terrorists obtain, stolen or forged units.

I ran into several bitter news stories quoting parents in areas where a NIC is already required over the exorbitant costs of keeping their kids legal, some deciding to flout the laws and keep the cards at home in a safe, - since the kids are always losing/ misplacing them, many requesting a exemption for the requirements for youths since they state the family budget cannot afford the constants fines & replacements.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...218561/1/.html

If cards are implemented with RFID chips; due to increasing reports of circumvention by criminals accessing stolen or forged cards, - in many experts opinion it will be a short step to requiring subcutaneous implantation of your national identity device.
While searching medical publications currently out regarding the installation of RFID devices currently beginning rollout in hospitals. A benefit listed is to have the ability to track patients whereabouts at all times in the hospital environment. Example: you could find your escapee (someone afflicted with dementia) etc, anywhere on the grounds.
http://www.verichipcorp.com/news/1145903041

I have to say with all the convergence of technology going on currently, I keep musing over themes in “The Matrix”.

National ID cards... REAL ID

What do you guys think of the new National ID cards? If this is considered Political topic ( I apologize). I just was curious as to what others thought of this.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

I know several states have passed laws or resolutions condemning the idea.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

Today (May 8) at 5 PM EST is the deadline to submit comments to the DHS.

From privacycoalition.org/stoprealid:

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

I personally have no objection to a national ID since, with the exception of a passport, there is no one document that really proves who a person is or their citizenship. That said, I believe that if there is a national ID, the following restrictions be applied to it:

- It would be optional, not mandatory
- It would be free
- The police could not ask you for your papers, unlike some other countries that require an ID to be carried at all times.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

privacy died in the US decades ago. Medical records, financial records, internet, phone, library, credit, whatever are all kept and accessible without much trouble. Complacency ofer the years has earned us this. The national ID card is just another step in the same direction.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

As a Canadian, I think it is ridiculous that I will be required to get a passport just to cross the border and get my mail. I don't care what kind of identification system you implement, those who wish to thwart it will, while the average law abiding citizen is burdened with the cost of procuring and securing documentation. If anyone truly thinks that a terrorist is going to care whether there is a document screening process in place, they are delusional - they could simply sneak across the border like millions of others have, enter under legitimate visas or are already in the country.

If we are going to need national identification, it should be far less expensive and cumbersome than a passport.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

Agreed. And in 50 years this discussion will come up again except it will be for mandatory computer chips in every citizen's arm.

THAT is the price of progress.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

To answer your restrictions.

Since the plan in discussion right now is to use a state drivers license or for those who don’t drive the state ID you can generally get at most DMV offices as the Real ID it is currently optional.

It will not be free.

Since it is purely optional there is no requirement to carry on all the time so police can’t ask you for your papers.

The Real ID is as of now a non funded federal mandate. The states I work with are trying to figure out how they will pay for the system upgrades. I wouldn't be surprised if the deadline for the ID is extended.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

I wouldn't consider that progress, and it only becomes the price if we as citizens let it.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

Fortunately, there are some religions out there where this would be a big no-no (including mine), so it would be a violation of Constitutional rights. Not gonna go into more detail per forum rules.

Re: National ID cards... REAL ID

George Orwell must be spinning in his grave. The idea of injecting an ID chip under the skin of all citizens hopefully is far in the future, however, one of the more sinister design specs of the new "National ID Card" calls for the card to have a microdot or microchip in the card. The government could track you whenever you go through a toll both, travel on a bus, train or plane. They'll be able to tell what stores you shop in, what movies you see, and where you buy your books. They will have the ability to track you 24/7 if you have the card on you.

It will not be mandatory to carry your "National ID Card," unless you want to travel on the above mentioned bus, train or plane, or if you want to enter any federal building or office.

And, by the way, I can't remember the case but the US Supreme Court has already ruled that you must provide ID to the police if asked, for no other reason other then they asked you for it.

Re: The Real ID Act

I don't think it should be mandatory or for everyone, but I do like the idea of a multi-state ID for those specifically engaged in multi-state commerce. IE, pilots, long-haul truckers, railroad operators. It would make the state road management system for those individuals much easier.

Re: The Real ID Act

The government? Try anyone. RFID chips are not very choosy. All you have to do is get control of the right equipment, either by theft, or by cracking, or by other routes, and you too can be conducting surveillance.

Doesn't it make you secure knowing that criminal gangs, stalkers, and corporate security guards will be able to tail you wherever you go?

Re: The Real ID Act

Chris, I admit to a hole understanding how truckers work, but what possible benefit would it add for pilots and railroad conducters (stuck on their 'track') to require them to carry a Federal ID card in their wallets?
How would it aid in mangement?

Re: The Real ID Act

You could also reprogram the RFID chips if you know how. And I happen to have played around with that technology a few months ago.

Wow! Free tolls from here to California!