Who is going to win the Format War and why? - Page 6

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

The main point was that they went to market with the knowledge that they couldn't even produce enough machines to serve a limited segment of the market. Their marketing strategy was designed to cause problems for and put pressure on the BD camp, not meet the needs of consumers. Sony's marketing spin might be disagreeable because they tried to paint HD DVD in a bad light technologically, but at least they didn't go to market with a problematic machine in a cheap attempt to undercut the competition. I would say Toshiba's marketing strategy has been the dirtier pool and has created image problems for disc based HD as a whole because both of these formats ended up being released before they were ready for primetime.

I have removed the sig statement. I still believe that Blu-ray has the best longevity factor; however, in all honesty, I have decided that the signature's statement was unsupportable, as long as Sony does not clean up their act. If they want the Blu-ray format to succeed then they have to do some pretty hard work to get themselves out of the hole they have dug. They had better have their ducks lined up when they release their machine, which means proper support for all audio codecs, HDMI 1.3, and, at the least, VC-1 encoding in the pipeline; especially at the prices they asking for these machines. If they fail to do it then they have killed their format before it even has a chance to show what it can do. Poorly encoded transfers are not going to cut it with the crowd that they are, supposedly, aiming these machines at. Possibly, more later.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

So what? What's wrong with a business acting in its own self-interest; consumer electronic companies don't exist just to satisfy videophiles. They are actually in it to make a profit believe it or not. You, as a consumer, make a choice as to whether or not you want to pay for their offering. People in a free society act as traders - no one owes you anything - including Toshiba. Anyone who REALLY wants an HD DVD player can buy one and they could the first month. If you can't be one of the first to buy one, oh well! It wouldn't be the first time in the history of the marketplace that the demand exceeded the supply of a product or service. The Toshiba players were rushed, no doubt, so a ton of supply wasn't going to be available (especially at the price).




I can understand what Sony has been doing. I mean a company is always going to state its product is better than its competitor. But, it seems we should have more than we are getting from blu-ray at the moment (it can change) and price.

The Toshiba player performs (and performed) as it was intended. Yes, it's a bit clunky and there were freeze problems which were corrected. But, it performs outstanding high definition video and audio -- better than what Blu-ray and Sony has promised up to this point. First generation players DO have issues (as the Samsumg model is now having). But, it seems Toshiba's problems are largely fixed by the reports I'm reading.

Never has a first generation piece of technology offered such outstanding DVD and HD video and audio quality for $500.

The only reason I don't have it today is because I want to see how this war plays out because anything can still happen and there isn't a ton of HD content available (though the SD upconversion is quite good).

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Well after Toshiba had an embarasing roll out with HD-DVD. Now Sony turns around and blunders there Blu-ray roll out. While I would like to say I am glad that Blu-ray is finally on retail shelves. But after seeing the Samsung Blu-ray player at my local BB. I walked away not completly impressed with what I saw so far. They had House Of Flying Daggers Blu-ray disc playing on a Samsung HDTV and I was disapointed that the picture was not as crisp and seemed to lack depth. The player itself was a nice looking peice of equipment but I don't think I could drop $1k on a Samsung player.

It's embarasing that Sony seemed to do such a piss poor job at the transfers for there roll out. And while Toshiba had there issues with HD-DVD at least the MPEG4 transfers I saw for HD-DVD looked better than the Blu-ray title I saw today. I expect the Sony player to have very few bugs if any since the delayed there player yet again. On top of that I also expect Blu-ray to have MPEG4 discs available by the time the Sony player hits local retailers. And since Toshiba seems to have fixed the bugs in there players. I will have no problem moving to HD-DVD if Sony cant get there act together! IMHO Blu-ray brought more to the table than HD-DVD but if Sony blunders Blu-ray. HD-DVD is a very good product and can easily end up in my home theater instead of Blu-ray. At this time I am still planning to purchase a Sony Blu-ray HD player and maybe a HD-DVD player soon after that.

I honestly do think you can deny that for $500 Toshiba does not offer a huge bang for the buck. Especially after releasing a fix for there HD-DVD players fixing the bugs that the player has. I say lets see how Blu-ray discs look when MPEG4 discs become available. At that time if HD-DVD still looks better than I would not consider HD-DVD to be inferior at that point. And I have to say that I saw a nice selection of HD-DVD's at BB that I would like to have. They did not seem to have any HD-DVD players but they had the movies. The HD-DVD display has been gone for almost two weeks now. And the Samsung Blu-ray display is right around the corner from the HD-DVD discs. At least its that way at my local BB store here in Phoenix, AZ.

So both formats have had a messed up roll out. The question remains what will Sony do to correct this? And how long will it take to release MPEG4 titles on Blu-ray? If Blu-ray is going to have a chance they will have to offer MPEG4 titles just like HD-DVD does.

HD movies on disc

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

DaVid Boulet has some interesting information over at this thread which possibly explains why Sony felt they needed to launch Blu-ray before it was truly ready.

The short of it is that Sony knew they weren't ready but "took a bullet for the team" because they were concerned that HD-DVD might have too strong of a foothold in the market by the time Blu-ray launched. They just needed to deliver something even if it wasn't the best. Definitely an interesting theory that makes sense given what we've seen so far.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Yes, I read that post, and it's interesting. The problem is that the rush job may backfire on them. The initial BD releases are NOT giving a good impression to most people, and may turn them off the format before it really gets going. A poll on AVS is running 70% against keeping the Samsung among its buyers. Not good.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

If you believe the rumors we could see VC-1 encoded discs in retail stores as early as a couple of months.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

What would be better VC-1 or MPEG4? I am not sure I would be thrilled about MS VC-1 being used. It is my understanding that MPEG4 is better than VC1. I may be wrong but this is what I understand.

VC-1 Profiles and Levels

Profile	Level	Maximum Bit Rate	Representative Resolutions by Frame Rate (Format)
Simple	Low	96 kilobits per second (Kbps)	176 x 144 @ 15 Hz (QCIF)
	Medium	384 Kbps	240 x 176 @ 30 Hz 352 x 288 @ 15 Hz (CIF)
Main	Low	2 megabits per second (Mbps)	320 x 240 @ 24 Hz (QVGA)
	Medium	10 Mbps	720 x 480 @ 30 Hz (480p) 720 x 576 @ 25 Hz (576p)
	High	20 Mbps	1920 x 1080 @ 30 Hz (1080p)*
Advanced	L0	2 Mbps	352 x 288 @ 30 Hz (CIF)
	L1	10 Mbps	720 x 480 @ 30 Hz (NTSC-SD) 720 x 576 @ 25 Hz (PAL-SD)
	L2	20 Mbps	720 x 480 @ 60 Hz (480p) 1280 x 720 @ 30 Hz (720p)
	L3	45 Mbps	1920 x 1080 @ 24 Hz (1080p)* 1920 x 1080 @ 30 Hz (1080i) 1280 x 720 @ 60 Hz (720p)
	L4	135 Mbps	1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz (1080p)* 2048 x 1536 @ 24 Hz

MPEG4

Use Scenario	Resolution & Frame Rate	Example Data Rates
Mobile Content	176x144, 10-15 fps	50-60 Kbps
Internet/Standard Definition	640x480, 24 fps	1-2 Mbps
High Definition	1280x720, 24p	5-6 Mbps
Full High Definition	1920x1080, 24p	7-8 Mbps

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

VC-1 is the codec that has been used on HD DVD so far, and the consensus is that it is excellent. This is what everyone is hoping for on BD.

AVC hp (MEPG-4) hasn't shown up on any US HD DVDs yet, so there isn't much anyone can say about it's quality (from an end-users perspective).

I do believe it was the codec used on the HD DVD demo disc, and that demo disk had some excellent video quality. But then again, demo discs don't mean all that much considering that the bit rate is likely to be much higher than what is used on actual releases.

I also think that AVC was used on the Japanese HD DVD of Resident Evil, and that was reported to have disappointing picture quality. But who knows the real reason for that.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Then I got a load of bad info because I was under the impression that "Visions Electronics" was going to be distributing HD DVD in Western Canada. I was in Calgary just a couple of days ago. I wandered into a Future Shop, near my motel, to see if they had one of the machines. They didn't so I just assumed that no other stores would have them either. I should have checked some of the other shops, such as Best Buy, but it didn't occur to me.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

You missed the meaning of what I said.

With HD DVD, you can use your existing DVD burner and burn a Dual layer DVD as an HD DVD 9 disc, which will play about 20 to 30 minutes of HD content on the Toshiba HD DVD player.

But the Samsung cannot read a DVD burned as BD 9 format disc. This is a big deal.

This is nothing to do with BD R/RE or HD DVD R/RW discs or burners, but rather, is about getting one's own HD content onto 9 Gig DVDs in HD DVD or BD format.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Well, I just phoned my local London Drugs and asked if they had an HD DVD player in stock. The guy just told me they did. Hot damn! I am actually going to be able to see the PQ for myself.....even if it is only on a store set-up.

To Michael-TLV:

Thanks for the London Drug tip.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Well what do you know - this thread would appear to confirm that BD production is NOT at the full 25 Gig Single Layer discs.

The BD releases so far appear to be 21 Gigs...

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=236865

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Edited due to extenuating circumstances

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

I guess that if it could, we would be well on our way to the very first muli-format HD player.

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

You are welcome.

It should also be noted that if you want to buy ... you don't have to pay the $699 they are asking. Since BB routinely sells it for $699 less 15% every 10 days or so on the web site ... you should be able to get $600 or less easy ... well relatively speaking.

Regards

Re: Who is going to win the Format War and why?

Oops! You're right, I read the post wrong. I got lost when you said HD DVD 9. I thought you were referring to HD-DVD-R.

Something that did give me a little chuckle... the irony of being able to play back DVD-Rs with homebrewed MPEG encoded video as a positive for the Toshiba when everyone (rightfully) gives Sony flak for using MPEG video in their production discs. Not trying to make a point here, I just found it funny.