Star Wars discussion from The Bits... - Page 24

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Maybe constructive suggestions are what the situation warrants.

- Steve

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'Star Wars' Fans Cry Foul Over Holy Trilogy



Really?

Folks have been screaming for the originals on DVD for years now. Has Lucasfilm not been listening? That seems somewhat contradictory to this statement:


I really am beginning to wonder what is going on at Lucasfilm. Just what are these people basing their marketing decisions on?

I mean really; what is their mindset? I ask that sincerely, because I am rather bewildered; not only of the content of this upcoming release, but also of the PR mess that has ensued. They certainly seem to be out-of-touch with the fans.

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I think that's been obvious all along. Really, if Lucas had decided to release the originals years ago (as he should have), can anyone imagine ANYONE working at Lucasfilm or Fox arguing against that decision? He is, and has ALWAYS been THE obstacle (and the obstinate, and the obtuse, and...).

See above.

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I think the PR machine is probably trying to do the best they can in a situation where fan demands probably will NOT be met regardless. I doubt there is anything the publicity department can do. They can pass on our concerns to Lucas, but Lucas OWNS these films. All PR can do is smile and say, "The 2004 versions represent George's artistic vision and blah blah blah." I kinda feel bad for them. I doubt there is much (or anything) they can do but regurgitate the fact that Lucas apparently has great disdain for the "Original" Original Trilogy. I'll keep bombarding them with letters and calls for sure. I want to make sure that they hear the wishes of the fans LOUD AND CLEAR.

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Mr. Singh's statements in that article leaves me just absolutely flabbergasted.

Now I know for sure that LF has no clue whatsoever - about anything.

How in the world can they not understand why fans are upset? And then just dismiss it all in the next sentence.

If it does all come down to Lucas himself, then my Definitive Edition box set will become the final purchase of the OT I'll have ever made. I have the 2004 SE DVDs, but that was a gift so my money was never used in that purchase (I didn't request them either ).

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When it was first mentioned that it would be possible, with much effort, to restore these movies, yield an anomorphic print, AND meet the deadline my first thought was that during all of this, the deadline was the LEAST important part.

Take your time Lucasfilm. Do the job right. Your fans will thank you with our wallets. And we desperately want to thank you.

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I take the Singh quote:

“We value them very much and value their opinions very much and we do make every effort to listen to what they say“

as just the normal PR/Business talk. He is not saying that they value our oppinions and make every effort to GIVE US what we want...just to LISTEN to all our crap

Its sad, but never the less becoming true. Its just the business way of saying "Heard ya, can´t help ya" OR "Heard ya, but Lucas dont give a shit...but heard ya"

Which one it is, we will learn later on

I for one wouldnt want to be Singh at this time


EDIT: Does anyone on this board have contacts at FOX ? Could be fun to hear what they say about this. I would expect them to be the distibutor of the september fiasco...How do they like putting the FOX name on a subpar release as this is ? Or do they just do what Old Beardy says, and take it from there ?

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Fox has no say in what Lucasfilm does with Star Wars. Maybe they could just not release it but there's no way that they're going to do that and no way that they're going to say anything bad about it.

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I didn´t really think so. But it would seem like common sense not to put your name to a product that has allready been stamped as inferior. But common sense isn´t really the norm in Hollywood these days

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“It’s important to understand that the movies that we call the originals don’t represent George’s vision of the movies, and we have to stay true to the creative vision of the person who is responsible for creating the saga,” Singh said. “So we’re not going to put an enormous amount of time and resources into something that doesn’t represent that vision.”

That doesn't sound to me like a micromanaging directive from Lucas concerning the presentation of the originals. That sounds to me like yes men acting on what they think he wants. People who want their next quarterly budget report to shine.

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You know what's sad?

By having already released Star Wars TWICE on DVD, Lucasfilm has pretty much guaranteed the video stores won't be buying these DVD's.

So little chance of picking them up for cheap previously viewed. 3 for $25 would be the best shot at me picking it up I'm thinking.

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There is no indication whatsoever that what they “think” he wants deviates one iota from what he really does want. No one thinks for a second that Lucas would tolerate ANY deviance on this issue from ANYONE who works for him. So of course this is micromanaging, in the sense that they are simply Lucas mouthpieces.

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I agree; in my E-mail response to Lucasfilms's PR letter (lengthy, but almost entirely polite and cordial), I also said that it is entirely inconsistent to spend millions of dollars to finish deleted scenes from the movies -- since these are, by definition, not part of Lucas's artistic vision of the films -- but to be unwilling to spend thousands of dollars to make a decent anamorphic transfer. (I mean, obviously, a full-on restoration ain't happening, but a decent transfer shouldn't be too much to ask.) Especially given that the company made billions of dollars in the past few years, and those billions came straight from the same people LF is asking to purchase this new release.

Then I said "But, listen, if Lucasfilms is genuinely unable to afford to spend less than one-thousandth of the profits they made in the past two years, then you obviously have much bigger problems to worry about that an anamorphic transfer."

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I wholeheartedly agree with the above post. The whole endeavor is starting to lose focus as people seem to come in here looking to vent and not much else, and that's a waste of the work and effort people like Bill and Ron and especially Robert Harris are putting in here to try and get things changed. If we're going to try and get the whole industry to pay attention to us, we need to keep in mind--that they're GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO US. Delving into fanboy histrionics won't be all that convincing and alluring, yunno?

Stay on Target

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It sounds like very cultish, dogmatic reasoning. I'd like an honest explanation on how releasing a clean, anamorphic transfer of the original versions means not being "true" to Lucas' vision. The fact is, one doesn't preclude the other. Releasing good quality alternate versions of movies has become somewhat common for movies with a strong following. For me, I love to see alternate versions of my favorite movies just to see whatever little new footage I can as well as it being an academic exercise on how the tone of a movie can be completely changed.

For example, the incredibly well done Dawn of the Dead: Ultimate Edition put out by Anchor Bay. It has the theatrical cut (Romero's prefered cut), the early cut he did for Cannes (often mistakenly labeled as a "Director's Cut"), and Dario Argento's cut done for foreign audiences. The theatrical cut is the true "Dawn of the Dead" and I know that, but the others are certainly interesting and valid viewing experiences. And I was glad to see Anchor Bay put up a good presentation audio/visual-wise for all three versions, especially after some of their previous botched releases.

There's no good reason why Lucas can't put out a high quality version of the originals and label them the "Historical Editions", "Early Editons", or something that clearly indicates that they aren't his true vision.

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Here's a thought:

Why doesn't Lucas record an introduction that will play before each original cut of the film starts, in which he explains to the viewer that the originals are not his true vision of SW and were just included as a 'bonus features.' That way fans get anamorphic and Lucas gets his viewpoint across. Heck, he can even make the intos non-skippable if it means getting a new transfer.

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If I thought that would matter, maybe. But the people at Lucasfilm know damn well what we mean by anamorphic widescreen. Jim Ward certainly does.

What this all really boils down to is that Lucasfilm - very probably on the orders of Lucas himself - isn't willing to spend the money to do better with those original versions. George hates them, so why shouldn't everyone else hate them too? In his mind, there's only one version of the Star Wars films... his. Everything else is just debris along the way.

Jim Ward, John Singh, Lynne Hale... they're all good people, and they KNOW damn well what anamorphic is and they know damn well how badly the fans want those original versions on DVD. Trust me on this. I've met them all multiple times. They're good people and they're smart people. And It's their job to know what anamorphic means and what the fans want.

I have every reason to believe that this started out with those who came up with the idea at Lucasfilm having the very best of intentions. People want the original versions? So let's give 'em to them. Then they went to George with the idea and after much arm-twisting, he grudgingly said, "Okay... but I'm not spending a single dime on it. If you want to do it, just use the best transfers we've already got." And when they went looking, the best available transfers that had been done were those 1993 versions.

I've talked with a lot of people, including John Singh, and I'd bet good money that that's how it shook out. John is totally serious when he says that they really weren't expecting so many fans to be upset by this. I think they really were trying to do the right thing. But they weren't allowed the money to do it right. I've had multiple Lucasfilm insiders tell me that when you work there, you are always aware that you're spending George's money. And personally, you don't get to be as rich as George without pinching pennies here and there.

By the way, I thought Jessica at Home Media Retailing did a pretty good job all in all. We talked for about an hour yesterday, and she loves these movies as much as anyone. She definitely gets it.

None of this is going to change what Lucasfilm is already planning to do, of course, but at least we've called them on it and made people aware. The sad thing is that even while most of the responses I've been getting have been overwhelmingly supportive, there's still a few Star Wars fans calling me an asshole for even daring to criticise George's gift release of the original films. And those few out of every hundred are all going to run out and buy the discs, and if you multiply that worldwide, Lucasfilm will rake in tons of money from these films yet again. And then they'll come back in 2007 with a not-so-ultimate box set and doing it all again. Such is the way of the world in the DVD industry these days.

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Is it safe to assume most of the potential expense and effort of a new transfer applies only to Star Wars, and not Empire/Jedi? (Maybe they'll think positive and see that 2/3 of the problem is already solved!)

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Bill,

When all is said and done I don't think we are going to
change George's mind on this.

I don't think any of us truly thought we could.

However, I think all of us here can be very proud of the
fight we waged here. We managed to get a lot of support
from members of both our sites as well as support from the
media.

The funny thing about this -- and I think you'll agree -- is that
there are a lot of people within this industry including some very
close to George who are VERY pissed off about this. Anyone who
is passionate about film and what goes into this DVD format is
not happy with George's neglect. We are free to voice our opinion
here while there are others who prefer not to lose their jobs.

I'm happy were able to convey the voices of those people.

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Interesting rumor and discussion from another site:

""MARCIA MARCIA MARCIA!!!

What on Earth does George's ex-wife, Marcia Lucas, have to do with any of this, you ask? Well, let's just say that their divorce way back when didn't just fade away amicably. Lucas was rich and the company was doing well. Lucas and his wife decided to part ways. However, there was that little issue of the money and how to split it up. I won't get into all the details on who got what and why, but suffice it to say that Marcia Lucas stands to get a nice paycheck whenever anything related to the ORIGINAL Star Wars films is released or aired. However, because the Special Editions are changed films and therefore NOT the originals, she doesn't get anything, (or perhaps very little - I'm not 100% sure).

Think hard on that last sentence. This could possibly change your perception on Lucas' motivation behind creating a Special Edition in the first place, could it not?

You see, Star Wars is Lucas' baby. He'll always be associated with it much like Gene Roddenberry will always be associated with Star Trek. Lucas will go to the grave and always be remembered as the guy who created Star Wars. Every time those original versions of the Star Wars films were released and re-released on VHS or any other format, Marcia allegedly got a nice, big paycheck.

I suppose that some time in the late 1990's, when it was clear that VHS was on the way out, the stars aligned the right way and Lucas must have realized (or was advised) that if he made altered versions of the films and released them, he wouldn't have to give Marcia such a hefty payday. Hmmm...so they can re-release the films a few years before the prequels to unleash Star Wars fever on the world again, maximize profits, and Lucas can say "Nah Nah!" to Marcia who left him to run off with the pool boy? Sounds like a plan! From there, he can do whatever he wants to with the new versions of the films! Bonus!

In his isolated bubble, however, he probably believed that the fans would absolutely love and unconditionally accept the Special Editions as superior, not caring if the old films were ever put back out again. Hence, there was all that talk of the pre-special edition VHS set being the last time you can get the originals, and then the latter talk of never releasing the original editions on DVD - ever ...until now, that is. So why did Lucas say he'd never do it? Marcia, Marcia, Marcia? Money, Money, Money? Could be.

But wait! What about THIS release?! T'bone, you nut - you're wrong! Look at what you just said! Lucas just proved you wrong by releasing the original versions when you said he won't!!! HA HA HA, you don't know what you're talking about, you loser! (Yes, I get e-mails like this...)

Click for the big picture.Think again, fanboy. If these original versions of the films are released as BONUS FEATURES, then that would nullify, pretty much, any monetary obligations to Marcia. This is exactly what I heard around the water cooler and I called it speculation at first until I saw an ad that confirmed it reading: "DVDs include special bonus material - the original theatrical movies from 1977, 1980, & 1983!" So, what you will actually be buying in the stores during this limited Disneyesque run is the 2004 editions (again) but with the ORIGINAL versions as bonus features.

So one could assume that Marcia would get nothing and Lucasfilm would keep all the dough. Of course they'll spin it as them giving us the versions we want, catering to the fans, etc. so I'm curious to see how they market this. The sales ad reads, "These are the DVDs fans have been demanding - Huge sales potention for new and core fans!" Ugh. ""

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That editorial has already been posted and discussed. Unsubstantiated speculation != constructive discussion.

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I suspect that Bill’s summation of how this release came about is dead on.

However, the only thing that really perplexes me is the notion that Singh and/or his Lucasfilm cohorts couldn’t have predicted this backlash, at least to some degree.

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well, you never know. he did pretty much take out Jar Jar from the rest of the prequels.
of course that was mainstream criticism. this is alot more "niche".

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per Bill Hunts explanation: I've always assumed that as well.

This release is definitely the "You can't have the originals, but if you MUST have SOMETHING, this is all I'm willing to give you - take it or leave it." edition.

I definitely think it's a waste to look for anamorphic editions because these versions were never meant to see DVD in the first place. But I agree with Ron that it was good to get a voice out there, at least to say "we tried".

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Thanks Bill and Ron for your additional thoughts on the subject. Most likely Bill's account of this release is correct.

However, it sounds like we're giving up. And while I'm not sure what else we can do at this point, I still don't like the idea. If there's one thing that I take solace in, besides the fact that we didn't take it lying down, is that Lucas and Lucasfilm have suffered a major PR fiasco because of all this, and from their most ardent fans too.

It is interesting to hear that there are those close to Lucas that are very pissed off at him right now, but, ultimately, what does that mean? Not much, I would imagine. He will continue living in Lucas-land until one day Star Wars just isn't bringing in the revenue it used to, and maybe then we'll get what we want. Most likely will get an average DVD transfer on Blu-Ray at this rate.

This is all very disappointing. The worst thing is that you truly don't know whether or not this will be the last time you will see the original, unaltered trilogy on home video. I suspect not, but I would imagine there are a lot that don't want to take that risk.

My love of Star Wars has been severely damaged by all this. I find myself pushing my son in other directions now, when I used to recommend he watch Star Wars. Ultimately, what he chooses to like is his business, but I always thought it would be cool to share in the Star Wars experience, and, now I really don't want to anymore. Hyperbole, histrionics? Possibly, but probably not, this is really how I am feeling at the moment.

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So that's the white flag, then.

Damn.

It was a decent run, guys. I think we got a little unfocused and defused and right now it feels like all that energy just went up like a fart in the wind, but it was SOMETHING that we got this many of us this loud to get Lucasfilm to respond directly to us both via email and in industry mags. So that's something. It's not what we wanted, but I guess it's something. The company knows what they're in for now, trying to sell these to people.

But yeah, like Bill, I've known that Marketing has REALLY wanted to get these out for quite some time now. Which is why I'm pretty sure, looking at how this went down, that we're probably never going to get another transfer on optical better than this one. This is probably it. Because Marketing had to nag for about 4-5 years just to get THIS on the market.

Maybe if there were more of us, they'd have more to go back to George with--but this white flag says otherwise

It was a good run, guys.

I'm still not buying this set, though.

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When Roseanne Season One was released on DVD with the edited syndicated versions, myself and others deluged the Amazon reviews with negative reviews and explained what was going on. I know it's different, (edits vs. crap transfers) but THAT did indeed work and from that season 2 on we received the proper original broadcast eps. We affected sales. Go now and BOMBARD Amazon for all 3 films.

d

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The last stab, as it were, dave?

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I just popped in the Faces vhs version of Star Wars and was horrified by the DVNR artifacts! The cleanup literally eats away at the image, including the subtitles. It looks ugly. Any detail that contains white or silver has digital black crud crawling through it, breaking it up. I would think that a dvd release of this would make the problem worse.

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VERY true. There are a LOT of industry folk for whom this makes little sense.