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Star Wars discussion from The Bits... - Page 8

post #211 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hawley
I also think that it's part of the pattern of releasing these on DVD: First the 4 disc box set in 2004, then the 3 disc box set in 2005 - and now, releasing them individually.

However, since the overwhelming majority of people who were ever going to own Star Wars on DVD have already bought either box set, there has to be some catch or added bonus to make sure these DVDs sell, so that's where adding the original cuts come in...just an added feature with little or no effort put into it, but will most definitely boost sales, at least somewhat.

Unfortunately, and this may be where Lucas is right though, it's likely that most average people (and even a fair amount of fans) prefer the SE's, so, strictly from a business perspective, would it be economically viable to put the money, time and effort into a full blown restoration of the original cuts?

Certainly most people on these boards, myself included, would love a true restoration, and I would like to think, and it seems, most people on this board would not buy anything (substantially) less. I can definitely say that's the case with me. I will not buy them, and will not put them, even far down, on my Christmas list. Yet are there enough of us that it would make strong business sense to do a real restoration?

But then again, most of us (I hope) won't buy these new discs, so it wouldn't make that much sense of putting them there with subpar transfers in the first place. Sure it will boost sales a bit, but it can't be that much, can it? At least if they're thinking we will buy them no matter what, then I really hope they're in for a rude awakening.


If Lucasfilm promotion weren't treating these bonus discs (meant to maximize sales of the individual film release) as The second coming and the main event, I don't believe the backlash would be as loud. But they are obviously targeting this demographic as well as the "clueless" general public. They had to expect this kind of reaction once word got out.

The ad campaign is what is (and will be) insulting.
post #212 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
The ad campaign is what is (and will be) insulting.
Completely 100% agreed. Releasing them non-anamorphically is their choice, but treating it like this is exactly what we wanted...well, that hurts.
Quote:
The quantity of units sold IF they choose to restore or present an anamorphic release would be multiples of what will be sold if they choose not to, IMO.
But everyone keeps bringing up the money that Lucas has made with these films. Maybe he's not interested in making money on these?

p.s. OH MY GOD! I have Episode 4 on in the background and as I typed the above response, Han Solo just said "I'm in it for the money!"
post #213 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

It's definitely insulting but I still think if they just said that they would be re-releasing the Star Wars SEs individually and as an added bonus, the original cut will be included, I'm sure most of us would still expect state of the art transfers and anamorphic enhancement.

Such blantant disregard for standard quality is what really makes the blood boil - or at least is the decisive factor for I not buying it.
post #214 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Since there are folks from Lucasfilm apparently reading this thread, wouldn't it be really cool if one of them joined the HTF(if they haven't already) and became involved in this discussion with us? I know there's probably very little chance of that happening, but it would certainly be nice to have a direct dialogue with them.
post #215 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris

...

If however, this specific release is meant in some odd way to be a true "measure of interest" of those who continue to request the original films, and if the films are released as discussed, then LF will most likely have the proverbial "self-fulfilling prophecy" on their hands, as numbers will be lower based upon lack of quality and compromised appeal due to the older transfers.

...

This got me thinking about the "limited release" aspect of this issue. If these titles are only available from September 12th to December 31st how can LucasFilm get a good measure of the demand for these titles?

Basic economics shows that items that have a limited availability are typically more sought after than those items that are readily available. By limiting the release to only a few months (I'm still not clear as to why...) LucasFilm won't be able to determine market interest.

In the end you have multiple groups pointing to various statistics in an attempt to prove their point. There will be those that say the modified trilogy sold ## times as many as the OOT set. Another that will point to the number of units sold within the 4 month release window compared to the initial DVD release in 2004. And possibly yet another that will look at which generated higher revenues.

In the end I doubt there will be a way to categorically choose a winner.
post #216 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Craig Ehr - I understand what you are saying, but you have your math wrong. I didn't buy the 2004 set because I wanted the OOT. Now I will be buying the OOT, and for me, getting the 2004 so that I can compare the old with the new is exactly what I want.

So, GL could compare the sales of the 2004 set against this one, just to find out how many people didn't buy the 2004 set because it didn't have the OOT included.

Glenn
post #217 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I consider myself a casual fan of the Original Star Wars movies. The Empire Strikes Back and A New Hope are in my top 25 movies of all times. While I never owned the trilogy on VHS, I did see the Special Edition in theaters. When the DVDs were first released in 2004, I picked it up on the first day. I also own the prequel trilogy on DVD as well.

When I first read the news that the Original Trilogy was coming to DVD, I was excited. I could finally see the movies as they originally appeared in theaters in 1977, 1980 and 1983.

However, once I found out that the new DVDs would be in non-anamorphic widescreen and 2.0 sound, my enthusiasm deflated like a balloon hit by a dart. Instead of giving us the original trilogy with the best visual and audio quality possible, Lucasfilm has decided to give fans the shaft. As Toby Ziegler on The West Wing would say, "It's like getting screwed with your pants on."

The decision by a company known for setting industry standards in terms of visual and audio excellence to release sub-standard DVD is inexplicable

Like other posters here, I believe that these DVDs are being maufactured to tie into the cross promotion of the video game and other items and also to differentiate it from the previous 2 releases in order to entice people to snap them up in order to have some more Star Wars materials in their collection. I wouldn't be surprised if work is being done on a 12-disc boxset for the 30th anniversary of A New Hope next May.

If Lucasfilm would reconsider their decision and release anamorphic widescreen DVDs with surround sound of the Original Trilogy, I would gladly buy the DVDs even though I already own Disc 1 of each of these 2-disc sets. Otherwise, I won't be picking these up, as the substandard treatment given to these DVDs won't warrant a purchase from me.
post #218 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
But everyone keeps bringing up the money that Lucas has made with these films. Maybe he's not interested in making money on these?

p.s. OH MY GOD! I have Episode 4 on in the background and as I typed the above response, Han Solo just said "I'm in it for the money!"


I agree, I was just responding to the business/economic question.

Han's in it for the money, no way!!
post #219 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Here is a copy of the letter AND email I sent to Lucasfilm earlier today:

As a film enthusiast and life-long Star Wars fan, I was happy to hear the news regarding September 12, 2006’s release of the original Star Wars Original Trilogy on DVD. However, my joy has quickly turned to disappointment and hurt upon hearing that the original films encompassing Disc-2 of the sets will be presented in non-anamorphic/ letterbox widescreen.

My frustration stems from two points. First, anamorphic widescreen has become the industry standard for DVD video presentation. Two, Lucasfilm has built a reputation on providing top of the line and industry leading products and technology. For this new release of the Star Wars Original Trilogy to not meet industry standards nor stand in line with the level of excellence synonymous with Lucasfilm is both perplexing and ultimately, inexcusable.

As a life-long Star Wars collector, my personal registry of Star Wars products includes everything from original Kenner toys to high level collectible replicas. I own over six versions of the original trilogy on various formats- VHS, laserdisc, DVD. Serious Star Wars collectible collecting has become a part of my adult life, a natural transition from the innocent passionate activities of my youth.

It is with great disappointment that I will not purchase a copy of the September 12, 2006’s release of the original Star Wars Original Trilogy on DVD unless the films are released in anamorphic widescreen video. As a fan I deserve better. It is my hope that Lucasfilm will do whatever it takes (even pushing back the September 12, 2006 release date if necessary) to remedy this situation and ultimately release the original Star Wars Original Trilogy in anamorphic widescreen video.

Thank you for your time and attention to the matter. Take care and God bless.

-Nkosi
post #220 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

The original versions of the Star Wars trilogy set the standard in their day. While technology has come a long way since then, to ignore the significance of these original versions, even if they did not meet Mr. Lucas' vision, would be shameful. All three of these films deserve to be presented as they were first shown, with their ground breaking (and Oscar winning) special effects, and in the best possible presentation - as others have mentioned Lucasfilm and THX were pioneers in presentation quality, to expect anything less than a properly restored, anamorphic release would be a travesty.

Are the effects state of the art today? No, but without them, what we have today simply wouldn't exist. These are important pieces of film history, and deserve to be treated with respect. The current decision needs to be reconsidered, and if Mr. Harris can be involved, so much the better.
post #221 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

All we are doing here is providing Lucasfilm free publicity, not food for thought. What's done is done.

For every person who cries foul about the lackluster treatment of the next Original Trilogy release, there are ten who will buy it regardless. They are probably Walmart customers, and they are probably going to buy the pan&scan version. No restoration is even needed in that case.

My ideal "restored" original trilogy would include new transfers and (at least for Star Wars) the dominant released soundtracks (mono, Dolby Stereo, and the discrete soundtrack that accompanied 70mm prints). I want to hear the stormtroopers say "Close the blast doors" like I did in the movie theater in June of 1977. I want this to restore the experience of seeing the movie in the theater, not of spinning up a laserdisc in the 1990s.

I also want to see this in high definition, not standard definition. It's time. It needs to be released in both HD-DVD and BD.

I'm not asking for too much, am I?

- Steve
post #222 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by george kaplan
I have those laser discs. I've already burned them to dvd. I had every intention of buying these, but if it's not at least anamorphic, then forget it. I'll keep my money and Lucas can keep his delusions and we'll both be relatively happy.

Ditto!
post #223 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tannehill
My ideal "restored" original trilogy would include new transfers and (at least for Star Wars) the dominant released soundtracks (mono, Dolby Stereo, and the discrete soundtrack that accompanied 70mm prints). I want to hear the stormtroopers say "Close the blast doors" like I did in the movie theater in June of 1977. I want this to restore the experience of seeing the movie in the theater, not of spinning up a laserdisc in the 1990s.

I also want to see this in high definition, not standard definition. It's time. It needs to be released in both HD-DVD and BD.
Ditto!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tannehill
I'm not asking for too much, am I?

- Steve
That will be the only one I would now get.

Paul
post #224 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
It all comes down to Lucasfilms & GL being truthful and honest with the customers.
Paul

Well, personally I gave up on the whole "Lucasfilm being honest" thing when the surround music channels were flipped on the Episode IV special edition DVD and Lucasfilm claimed it was done "on purpose".

I mean, c'mon guys. No way. So it was an "artistic" decision to reverse the music channels on Episode IV but not Episodes V, VI, I, II, III or, wait, ANY other film in cinematic history? Just admit the mistake and fix it. Thanks!

I'm another who'd like to voice their dissatisfaction at the anticipated treatment of the original trilogy, especially considering the kind of results that Mr. Harris is promising. Please don't waste this golden opportunity.

John
post #225 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tannehill
For every person who cries foul about the lackluster treatment of the next Original Trilogy release, there are ten who will buy it regardless. They are probably Walmart customers, and they are probably going to buy the pan&scan version. No restoration is even needed in that case.
- Steve

Wouldn't those ten Walmart customers already own the 2004SE version? Furthermore why would those ten Walmart customers purchase these 3 movies individually for $30/ea. when they can buy the 2004SW versions in either of the two box sets already available at $40 for all three movies?
post #226 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
Quote: It all comes down to Lucasfilms & GL being truthful and honest with the customers.
Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunG
It all comes down to Lucasfilms & GL being truthful and honest with the customers.
(Post #182)

I believe I made that statement, no offense to Paul
post #227 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Bate:

1 : to reduce the force or intensity of : RESTRAIN
2 : to take away : DEDUCT
3 archaic : to lower especially in amount or estimation

There are also some other definitions:
Quote:
1. To lessen by retrenching, deducting, or reducing; to abate; to beat down; to lower. "He must either bate the laborer's wages, or not employ or not pay him." (Locke)
2. To allow by way of abatement or deduction. "To whom he bates nothing or what he stood upon with the parliament." (South)
3. To leave out; to except. "Bate me the king, and, be he flesh and blood. He lies that says it." (Beau. & Fl)
4. To remove. "About autumn bate the earth from about the roots of olives, and lay them bare." (Holland)
5. To deprive of. "When baseness is exalted, do not bate The place its honor for the person's sake." (Herbert)
post #228 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

To the technical wizards here, is there sufficient time for them to make the release date with anamorphic copies? This is assuming that they don't do any intense cleanup or restoration.
post #229 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

In the thread, Robert Harris himself said there's time to make the discs AND do an actual restoration if he's hired almost immediately. So it's definitely possible. Worst case, the street date would have to move back, but I'm thinking Lucasfilm won't do that for the synergistic tie-in reasoning.
post #230 of 3173
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

To John P. M. and Mr. Anthony...

No one knows the reality of what might be necessary or unnecessary as the information thus offered has been in "tongues."

Any work performed would be digital in origin, which means that clean-up, restoration of color, etc. Could all be handled in layers. Once begun, it would be easier to simply take it all the way through the various layers of processes rather than pick and choose one from the next.

Allow me also to bring another fact to the fore. If what we are led to believe is true, then the technology which our group has created could solve the problems.

If, on the other hand, other elements are extent, our hand in this might be helpful, but not totally essential.

And totally off topic, I have been wandering the web and sampling some of the other threads on this subject.

While one cannot totally generalize, as there are thoughtful discussions going on at a number of sites, please allow me to congratulate and thank the readers and membership of HTF for being courteous, open-minded and intelligent in this continuing discussion. LucasFilm is not the enemy.

RAH
post #231 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Just so as long the film is released with the full six-track Dolby Stereo mix as heard on the 70mm blow-up prints, that will WOW me from start to the last musical note by John Williams, and that is how it should be presented on DVD nothing more nothing less.

Also I think there should be an isolated six-track Dolby Stereo score, showcasing “John Williams” academy award winning score.

An Audio commentary by “John Williams” himself between the breaks in the score, so we the fans can hear he’s thoughts on scoring the musical soundtrack.
post #232 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Thanks for that, Robert.

Andy: This isn't a wishlist thread.
post #233 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Robert

It’s not, oh well, just as long as it looks good and sounds good, and lives up to everything it’s promised to be, I’ll be chuffed with that.
post #234 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Epstein:

Excellent post, Paul.

Thanks, Ron, that's high praise indeed. I just want to try and keep people grounded here, Blu-Ray and HD DVD aren't some kind of magic bullet that's going to take away the sting of a non-anamorphic release of the orginal, unaltered trilogy, not anytime soon anyway.

Nkosi,

I think that your e-mail is simple and straight-to-the-point, and I like it very much. I think that it would serve as a great template for anyone wishing to e-mail Lucasfilm and express their dissatisfaction with this release. Honestly, I think people need to resist the tempation to pour-out-their-heart and profess their love for Star Wars in their e-mails. You must appeal to Lucasfilm based on terms they'll understand, namely I'm not buying this release and here's why.
post #235 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

If they're that dead set on using the 1993 transfers, could they not simply send the D1/D2/Dwhatever tapes to DTS-Lowry to enhance a bit? If you recall, most of the initial enhancement jobs coming from Lowry were done at standard definition. With Lowry/DTS having done things like blowing 35mm flat up to IMAX*, making acceptable 16x9 DVD's of an old letteboxed 4:3 transfer should be relatively trivial for them.




(*well, just a test bit of "From Russia With Love")
post #236 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I just want to voice my agreement with those who are saying anamorphic widescreen is the only way to go with this release. I own four versions of these movies already, and while I don't have the original versions on a digital format, I will not pay $40-$60 for what is known to be a subpar release.

If the original versions ever do come out that meet industry standards, then I will gladly place my preorder as soon as possible.
post #237 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Win-win, I'd say.
in the words of Michael Scott (The Office) in 'Confilict Resolution', with an assist by Pam, we need a win-win-win solution
post #238 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Goodman
If they're that dead set on using the 1993 transfers, could they not simply send the D1/D2/Dwhatever tapes to DTS-Lowry to enhance a bit? If you recall, most of the initial enhancement jobs coming from Lowry were done at standard definition. With Lowry/DTS having done things like blowing 35mm flat up to IMAX*, making acceptable 16x9 DVD's of an old letteboxed 4:3 transfer should be relatively trivial for them.




(*well, just a test bit of "From Russia With Love")

Except that for the IMAX DMR stuff, they start with a 4K transfer of a film. Save for the first wave of projects they've done, most of what they clean up is HD/2K/4K origin. Even the first wave used 24p transfers at PAL. Not to mention that Snow White started with a 4K Cineon file.

LDI is great, but if you want to see what happens when a studio gives a shitty source to work from, look at the Mary Poppins SE. Apparently from a dupe negative created from B&W color separations, it's contrasty and clearly very grainy before LDI's work. There's a huge amount of smearing in closeups and the animated segment has little fine detail in faster moving shots.

On the other hand, you have stuff like THX 1138 and Bambi which were 4K origin from the original negatives.
post #239 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Quote:
could they not simply send the D1/D2/Dwhatever tapes to DTS-Lowry to enhance a bit?
Many fans have said that the reason Lucas doesn't release his films on DVD with DTS is because he's got stock in Dolby or something like that. Would that apply here as well now that DTS owns LDI?
post #240 of 3173

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Thank you for the information, Mr. Harris. Is there anyplace that I can read more about the great work you have done?
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