#*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again! - Page 4

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I still think there should be just one time for the whole planet. Do away with DST & time zones all together! Then let every business, school, factory, etc. deiced when they want to be open.
Like when I moved from NJ (eastern time) to KY (central time) the tv shows are broadcast the same time 8:00 eastern / 7:00 central. The hour difference is caused by the time zone only. In NJ most businesses opened at 9:00am, here they open at 8:00am.
With the global economy, business that are in more than one time zone / country and all those who travel, it would make life much easier.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

That was always my gripe...Someone once told me that one of the reasons we don't observe DST all year round was because it gives more sunlight at the bus stops in the winter. I thought that was a stupid idea because if sunlight was an issue, why didn't the schools just open an hour later???

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

DST really fucked me in the ass this year. Totally forgot about it until last night, so I travelled from Albany back to Boston this morning on ~3 hours sleep. I've got quite a bit of work left to do tonight (so what am I doing on here, right? I wish I knew...) so tonight's not going to fare much better. By Thursday I should have my shit straightened out.

Me too. I'm a night owl, so I have my schedule designed so I never have to get up before 8 am. I never see that hour of sunlight in the morning, and I can really use it in the evening. This will by the first week since October that might evening commute will occur in daylight.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I've taken on a truly high-teck Zen philosophy towards DST...as long as my DVR adjusts itself automatically so that I don't miss American Idol, everything is okay with the world.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

And when we finally had DST starting and ending on the same day of the year all over the world ..... the US decides to start it two weeks earlier this year.

And on a more arbitrary date (not "last weekend of the month") as well, which makes it less easy to "automate" in some more primitive systems.

Nice!


Cees

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

That makes no sense. Having the sun set at, say, 11 am would be ludicrous, as well as having it rise at, say, 9 pm (of what day?). Then there's the problem of agreeing on the "one time". You think Bejing is going to agree to have it be the same day and time as, say, Chicago (or vice versa)? Why not decree that everyone speak the same language and use the same currency while you're at it?

If the Japanese businessman calls the California businessman, it's still going to be during the day one place and the middle of the night in the other place, no matter what number you put on it. Or do you propose that people in some places ignore such trivialities as where the sun is when sleeping and doing business? And for the convenience and inconvenience of people where, exactly?

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I agree with Robert, unless the sun rose and set at the same time everywhere on Earth.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Well, we've always been contrary.

No metric system.
No Celsius.
Ongoing resistance to small-denomination coins vs. paper money.
Lack of any significant national public transit.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I'm glad we don't have to worry about that here.

Luckily, I noticed that "Dirt" moved up an hour earlier so I adjusted my DVD recorder. Our basic channel shows stay at the same times.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

No DST = No Sale!

Whoops, a little dyslexic there.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Why is that a problem? If you lived in a specific area, you would be used to the sun rise at 9:00 pm. Kinda like those who live in the southern hemisphere who celabrate Christmas in the summer.
What purpose do time zones serve anyway? Just so you know that 12:00 noon the sun is at it's highest point in the sky? During DST that isn't the case anyway. Just so you get to work at 9:00 am? Many jobs don't start at 9:00 anymore. I get up in the morning with enough time to get to work. If the clock says 1:00, 5:00 or 9:00, what differance does it make? One consistant time, reguardless of what the clock actually says, makes more sence to me that changing the time twice a year.
We already have GMT.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Oh...and damn us for not wanting to be taxed by some monarchy without representation in the government! Rebellious, us colonies!

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

because the sun is the indicator as to what time it is. Ok, let's say we went with your system...

For the sake of argument, let's say it is 9am in New York. That means California is 9am also, but the sun won't be in the same position (as NY) for 3 more hours.

Now let's say you owned a nationwide store (like Wal-Mart). In CA, do you send your workers in at 9am (when it's pitch black out) or do you send them in a noon (which would be the sun position as 9am)?

If you send them in at noon, then how do you distinguish the CA store with the NY store? Do you say "Californian stores are open from Noon to midnight, and the NY stores are open from 9am to 9pm"??? What if you visited another time zone? Wouldn't you need to relearn what times things opened and closed?

What time do stores in Kansas open? Wouldn't you need to draw a LINE that determines the time differentials? Isn't that what time zones do?


And what about in the ocean, islands, or people who don't have clocks? Someone can determine the time of day by their coordinates and the angle of the sun, but if we went with one 'all inclusive' time, then how would these people know what time it was? Isn't navigation based on the suns position in the sky?

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Getting people "used" to that would be FAR more cumbersome than DST. And again, people in a given area are going to scream "why should WE be the ones who have to 'get used' to this??!!". In essence, you want to destroy the very meaning of the term "time of day", and NO one will go for that.

The question remains. Why would, say, Sydney agree to say that local time=GMT? What's privileged about GMT, other than as a reference?

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Like I said, each store, buisness, school, etc could decied when it wanted to open. Wal-Mart is open 24/7 here anyway. The store here open anywhere between 7:00am and 11:00am already. It is not like 9:00 everything opens at once, it depends on the buisness and customer base.
No, There woulden't be any.
I guess you never worked anything other that "Day Shift". Most common shifts today are 7:00-3:30, 3:30-11:00 and 11:00-7:00, or 7:00am -7:00pm. There are many people who go into work one day and leave the next. Anything that is open 24/7 does. (police, hospitals, factories, etc...) These peoples daily schedule has nothing to do with the sun.
Think of some advantages if every business didn't open at 9:00. Rush hour traffic would be spread out over more time making the roads less crowded. Restaurants would not be swamped for just one hour at lunch time. Many more.
If you don't have a clock why would you care what time it is? As far as boats on the ocean, why would they care? How does our air force operate with bases in one zone and missions in another? I am sure they don't change their watches as they fly around.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

The typical American way.

(and believe me, I'm as American as they come)

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I agree with drobbins. I've always thought the idea of time zones was kind of silly. Waking up to the sunrise at 1:30 am or 11:00 pm is no less sensible than at 7:00 am; we just happen not to be used to it. Why not have everyone agree on a single time and let businesses and schools open whenever they like?

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Your original post about the "advantages" mentioned travelers:

I don't see how it would make life easier for them at all. It would generate mass confusion for people used to the sun setting at a given time, and suddenly having to mentally adjust to a sun setting and rising at a time that has no relation to what they're used to.

That has nothing to do with DST or time zones. It appears you've shifted from arguing against DST and time zones to arguing that there should be a hodgepodge of opening and closing times for businesses. Local time is still local time, and the idea of "standard business hours" would still hold true, no matter what numbers you put on them.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

How is that any different than DST or the fact that the sun sets 4-5 hours eariler in the winter than summer? Yes the initial change would confuse people, but that would be a one time event. Under our current system, people get confused twice a year. Thus the reason for this thread.

Currently where I live this is the general times business open:

• Farmers - before I get up
• Lumber yards - 6 to 7
• Auto parts stores - 7 to 8
• Schools - 7 to 8
• Big chain stores - 24/7
• Office business hours where I work - 8 till 5
• Hair dressers - 10
• Restraints that don't serve breakfast - 11
• Factory shifts I mentioned before

I don't see any correlation between these opening times and the position of the sun in the sky.
The time the clock says is a reference point set on when the sun is in a certain position at a certain time of year. We use that reference point to plan our days. If there were one time for the whole planet, the reference point would be GMT or the international date line. It is just a change on what the reference point is based on. I think the people who won't understand it, are the ones who think a guitar plays louder if the volume goes to "11"

Check out this article about the history of time zones. http://geography.about.com/od/physicalgeography/a/timezones.htm

Looks like mankind made it to the year 1884 with out time zones. China spans 5 time zones but uses only one time for the whole country. Those 3 billion people can handle it.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

but back then, their world was local. But they DO! Farmers get up early to get a jump on the day and they try to get a lot of the "grunt" work done before noon, when the sun is at it's hottest.

But if we went with your method, what if the sun was at it's highest peak at 6am? That would mean the farmers would have to get up at midnight to start their day. That's crazy.

But what you're suggesting is, the farmers get up when the sun starts to rise...but if the sun rises on the east coast, 3 hours earlier than on the west coast, then won't farmers be waking up in the east coast earlier than the west coast? I mean, isn't that what time zones do for us? They help define when the sun will rise? It rises the same time in each zone, but with your method, it won't.

That's all fine and good, but it's no more confusing than time zones. In fact, I still think time zones are less confusing because it puts people on a schedule that the rest of the world follows.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

But when they get up has nothing to do with what the clock is showing
But it wouldn't be "midnight", it would be 24:00

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Dave, how about world clocks? If you had a clock of every country, you could tell (just by looking at the clock) what was going on in their neck of the world...

If my friend was in Italy and I looked at the Italy clock and it said "3am", then I know my friend is sleeping.

But if there were no time zones, the Italy clock would say the same time as mine (i.e. like 9pm), so then how would I know what was going on in Italy? It's 9pm there, but how would I know if people were sleeping or not? Is the sun up or down?

Basically, I'd have to do some math to figure out how many hours they were ahead of me to figure out where the sun is, so I know what's going on there.

Which is exactly what time zones do for us. Getting rid of them just seems so silly.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

This is true, but then how do you figure out what time they DO get up (if you needed to communicate with them from around the world)?

If I know that most farmers get up when the sun rises, I can determine (by the use of time zones) precisely when all farmers get up, no matter where they are in the world. If we all went with the same time, how do you figure it out?

OK, I realize that there isn't a real reason why I'd need to know this, but you get the picture. There are lots of examples where people need to know the time in another country, to determine how things are functioning.

Isn't it a lot easier to know that california is three hours behind, rather than remembering that Wal-Mart opens at 5am instead of 8am???

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

DING DING DING!!!

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

As I said before, I have always thought that time zones were a poor idea. However, Mark, you have raised some interesting points that have led me to rethink the issue, particularly with your last post (knowing what's going on in another part of the world by checking the time). That said, I still don't think you're giving drobbins' idea enough credit, and some of your arguments against it don't make sense to me. For example,



Crazy? How is the clock reading "12:00" at sunrise any crazier than the clock reading "6:00" at sunrise? The farmers get up at sunrise? What possible difference could it make what numbers happen to be showing on their clock at that time?

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I'm not saying that it's crazy that the farmer has to get up at midnight...I do understand the concept that it doesn't matter what the clock says, what matters is where the sun's position is...so why would anyone be against time zones? All they do is put the suns position into perspective all the way around the world.

I know that wherever I travel in the US, I know that, if I needed to awake at sunrise, it will always be the same time, no matter what state I'm in. I wouldn't need to do some weird sort of math calculation to determine when I'm supposed to wake up.

And again, I'm putting this into simplistic terms...I bet there are far more complex time issues that would be screwed up if not for time zones.

What I'm basically saying is - the concept of time would be COMPLETELY different depending on where you were located in the world and that can't be a good thing.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

We already HAVE a general worldwide time. It's called GMT.

What we're discussing here, at least Dave likes to do that, is whether or not countries/states would like to use a private offset to GMT to synchronize the clocks throughout their countries/states and signify the current position of the sun in the process. At the moment, they obviously prefer that all over the world. Dave suggests they shouldn't.

(DST is a general agreed upon change, during a specific period of the year, to that offset.)

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

Farmers who have milk cattle get up early because that's when the cows are milked. A lot of farming is done in midday because that's when the sun is hottest. If you're making hay, you can't do it first thing in the morning because the dew will be on the ground. It has to be dry to bale, unless you want a barn fire. Oh, and you also wear long sleeve shirts when baling hay in the hot sun, to avoid chewing up your skin when throwing the hay around.

They may do things differently now, but I worked an angus farm for 8 years when I was a kid, and that's the way we did it.

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

No, it would be never ending confusion. Under the current system, when you travel someplace, all you need to do is set your watch to the local time, and you’re DONE. No confusion about when the sun will rise/set, no confusion about what day it is (your proposal would kill the international date line as well). Under your system, you’d have no idea what time of day it is in relation to the sun when you travel, because you don’t live where you travel to. There’s no “initial change” to get used to. You’re plopped in a strange place with no reference. With the current system, you DO have a reference. And as Mark has pointed out, you KNOW if it’s the middle of the night back home with the current system, because the time zone system TELLS you. It functions very well. Tell you what. Why don’t you set all your clocks and watches to read GMT no matter where you are, and leave the rest of us to use the current system.

With the exception of the 24/7 stuff and early farmers, all of those are during daylight. So there IS a correlation with the sun. Name three retail businesses that are open, say, 8 pm to 5 am (NOT 24 hours).

Re: #*@X&$ !! daylight savings time got me again!

I know! Imagine traveling overseas and trying to figure out when the sun will rise accoring to the current time? Your watch (or any clock for that matter) would be meaningless! Unless you asked a local person (or waited), you really wouldn't know when to set your alarm clock in order to wake up when the sun came up. Exactly! With your suggestion, time and clocks basically become meaningless - and you don't see that as a bad thing???

With time zones, if I travel overseas, I just readjust my watch to the local time and I am INSTANTLY in sync with how the local areas will function. I may not be able to speak the language, but I can pretty much count on businesses opening at 9am.

Or how about this? What if you went pack packing for the day in another country...Without any real reference to time, how would you know when to get out of the wilderness? Imagine the sun being out and your watch says 9pm? How much longer do you have until the sun goes down and it gets dangerous out? No one wants to have to retreat from unfamiliar territory in the dark.