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HTF REVIEW: The Wizard Of Oz - Three-Disc Collector's Edition (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED). - Page 6

post #151 of 401
Top first WB
Middle new WB
Bottom MGM or....?

Right?

And what was the point behind this?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

The Wizard of Oz (Three-Disc Collector's Edition)
post #152 of 401
Top = Old

Middle = New

Bottom = Photoshop

Wes:

I thought about trying the same thing to see how I would adjust it (looks like you took the old and adjusted it). Nice job ... I think you brought a nice healthy balance to things.

As someone mentioned, not everyone sees colors the same which can make discussions tough for those that are messed up.
post #153 of 401
Here is three more to consider!
http://wizardofoz.iwarp.com/photo2.html

Sorry could not fit them on the same page!

Wes
post #154 of 401
Photoshop adjusted versions of the new DVD.

Wes, did you apply the same exact changes to all three images?
post #155 of 401
AH, I'm sorry for not understanding, you adjusted the new colors in photoshop to a point that you consider to be "correct".......considering that original dye transfers were used to match correct color to what the original filmmakers had approved I still don't see the true point behind this exercise.
post #156 of 401
Kevin,

I'm just catching up on the discussion. How do we know the dye transfers match what the filmmakers approved? Were they even involved? How do we know?

How do we know how good a job WB did matching the dye transfer?

All,

I'm taking a wait and see approach to an opinion on the colors of the new disc.

However, as posters have noted, if one takes the opinion that WB professionals have created expert workmanship in this new video presentation than why the large differences in color? Was the dye transfer lost in a cave so that these professionals didn't have the best reference material during the last go around?

I guess I'm not willing to accept much on reputation. Like a restaurant, I'll wait to see what the current chef cooks up and judge it on its merits.

Admittedly, I have precious little knowledge about the making of The Wizard of Oz. Why the discussion about filters and such? Were color filters used during the making of the film? Do we have any specific knowledge that the filmmakers were going for invented colors rather than faithfully presented colors of the actors/sets (albeit as close as Technicolor could provide at that point)?
post #157 of 401
They look different because technology has come a long way since 1998. I'd actually be more concerned if the new edition looked the same..."Dorothy's dress has been this color since I first saw it on television, so I guess I'll make it light blue instead of navy."
post #158 of 401
Quote:
However, as posters have noted, if one takes the opinion that WB professionals have created expert workmanship in this new video presentation than why the large differences in color? Was the dye transfer lost in a cave so that these professionals didn't have the best reference material during the last go around?

This seems to be assuming all sorts of things, such as, but not limited to: that expert workmanship shouldn't lead to noticeable differences in color for Oz from transfer to transfer, that even original 1939 dye transfer prints had identical coloring, and that there is such a thing as "the" original print for color reference.

These would all be wrong.

Quote:
I guess I'm not willing to accept much on reputation. Like a restaurant, I'll wait to see what the current chef cooks up and judge it on its merits.


But without having knowledge of the film's history, you're not really in a position to judge the look on its merits, either, no matter how long you wait around.* If you're going to demand adherence to a single acceptable coloring (a first mistake that likely throws off the remainder of the endeavor beyond repair), and if this is only going to go on what you like, or what you think happens to be what was on the set (as if that which was visible to human eyes on the set was not itself variable from shot to shot by standard changing of lighting, etc.!), you won't be any closer to finding out whether the film achieves a proper look.

* Nor am I, which is why I choose not to wait around until some internal voice decides on its own that I somehow do know enough to make that judgment.

Someone on this board has been kind enough to not hide the ball and just say it straight:

Quote:
[O]nce that color is encoded to the negative, it is very difficult to get two prints made on two consecutive days to match each other. Each will be slightly different from the other, but both will get the point of the color across and will pleasing to the eye.

The original prints of Oz that I've seen, have also not ever been cool. They always tended toward warm tones.

The entire ideal of "the original dye transfer print" is a myth. Of the original dye transfer prints, few, if any (say, about 1%), had completely accurate color as was to be found in the negative (er, well, assuming for a moment that the negative wasn't a bunch of black-and-white strips and was color). The majority of those original prints would have had defective colors, to one small degree or another, in one direction or another, in each of the three strips. Those original prints also would have obscured some fine detail held in the negative, given the soft reproduction of the time.

As compared to 1939, the new DVD can be more accurate as to the color as found on the negative. There is little to worry about, anyway, as the new transfer's colors are, with much thanks from this corner of the world, confirmed by those who should know to be well within the acceptable range for the film.

As compared to 1939, the new DVD can also be more accurate as to detail as found on the negative. And Ms. Garland, now truly over the rainbow, is surely embarrassed that modern video transfer technology has led to the discovery of her freckles all these years later.

If the basic "don't worry, be happy" tenor given by some here seems inappropriate for as serious a trade as film restoration...it is probably time to reasses one's assumptions about that trade.

DJ
post #159 of 401
Nicely said!
post #160 of 401
Quote:
The entire ideal of "the original dye transfer print" is a myth. Of the original dye transfer prints, few, if any (say, about 1%), had completely accurate color as was to be found in the negative (er, well, assuming for a moment that the negative wasn't a bunch of black-and-white strips and was color). The majority of those original prints would have had defective colors, to one small degree or another, in one direction or another, in each of the three strips.

Damin, I'm sorry if I am being dense but I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at, are you saying that dye transfer prints should or shouldn't be used as a guideline for the Director's/DP's intentions?
If dye transfer prints are so unreliable then why use them at all to judge "proper" color, and if this is the case then how do we know at all if the OZ prints that "have always been warm" over the years are accurate at all to the "intended" look of the film? I thought the whole point behind referring to (hopefully) director approved dye transfer prints was that the colors don't fade and therefor are a reasonably* good guide to correct intended color.
Why does RAH (or anyone) partially rely on them in their restorations to judge the DP's & Director's intended color ranges?

*reasonable, not absolute. I understand that they are not totally 100% accurate but I assumed that they were accurate enough to refer to them to begin with.

I'm sorry for the confusion but, again, I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying.
post #161 of 401
Quote:
I'm sorry if I am being dense but I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at


It's simple, and I have witnessed it first hand. Dye transfer prints are very stable once printed, but the printing is a mechanical process.

I have personally witnessed two IB Tech prints of the same feature that have distinctly different color temperatures.

As far as a comparison to the negative goes, there was no color negative back then, only three black and white negatives.

The only way an IB Tech print could be confirmed as having accurate color rendition would be by comparing the colors on the print to the original set's and costume's colors. At that doesn't work very well, because as has been stated before, IB Tech really doesn't like white, as an example.

Also IB Tech was notorious for having "problems" with certain colors. That's why you will also see a credit for a "Technicolor Color Consultant" on all Technicolor productions.

Ted
post #162 of 401
If pink photographs as white in technicolor, how do they get teeth & eyes to be white? Did they have to dye their eyes to match their gown
post #163 of 401
Just FYI...a friend of mine got the BB circular for next week in today's mail. For Reward Zone members, the two-disc edition is $13. The 3-disc sale price is $34, according to the flyer.

I was seriously considering the 2-disc edition due to the price, but after reading that great review, I might have to bite the bullet and go for jumbo.
post #164 of 401
Quote:
And what was the point behind this?


I guess nothing if you do not see a more pleasing color tone on the third picture! I just wanted to see how hard it was to achieve what I would consider better color tones than either DVD is giving.

Yes, the First is the screens capture as provided on this review of the old version, the second is of the new DVD and the third is my photo shopped version of the old DVD. On the next page the next three are the photo shopped new DVD captures.

After looking over them all I find the old DVD to contain a bit more clean detail and after adjusting them all to the same level I found the Old DVD gave me the best color tones after Photoshop was applied.

All I adjusted was the Color Tone on all shots to the same level. The old DVD I took the Yellow-Blue level to -30 toward the Yellow side (Scale goes from on the Yellow side -100 to 0 then 0 to +100 into the Blue).

The new DVD I adjusted the Cyan-Red line to -20 on the Cyan side on all three photos. Note the witches eyes are not so blood shot but not as white as the old DVD's but the house back behind still is a bit red tined, any further adjusting it clearly changed the Green face so I hated to adjust any further.

Like what I have done, hate what I have done I don't care I just wanted to see if I could achieve what I felt looked better and to me I did achieve it.

But Like I stated before it's just my opinion and it really does not matter as I was not there working on the restoration. And to beat a few of you to the punch I will say it first "Thank goodness"!

Wes
post #165 of 401
Quote:
I have personally witnessed two IB Tech prints of the same feature that have distinctly different color temperatures.
The only way an IB Tech print could be confirmed as having accurate color rendition would be by comparing the colors on the print to the original set's and costume's colors. At that doesn't work very well, because as has been stated before, IB Tech really doesn't like white, as an example.

If this is the case then I ask again, why refer to DTP's at all? I would think that the other homework (original props, clothing, paint swatches of the time, director's notes) that a restoration requiers would reveal much more useful info than DTP's, and (again) how do they know that the "warm" tone that much of the prints have had over the years is representative at all of the "intended look"? And why were DTP's mentioned at all as one of the main tools in this transfer (or any new transfer of an old film) as a guideline for color temp if they are so unreliable?
post #166 of 401
Thanks for the review. Never got the previous edition, but will be getting the new one.
post #167 of 401
Quote:
If this is the case then I ask again, why refer to DTP's at all?


To the extent that any given dye transfer print might be off from the intended dcolors to a given degree in one or more directions, that difference could be determined and accounted for. Since they would not fade, any given original print would exhibit a point along the acceptable range of colors. This would be especially helpful if the colorist who cut the print marked how much that print was off.

DJ
post #168 of 401
A particular print could also have been "approved" by the director/film-maker as being the proper representation of his/her intended work.
post #169 of 401
While surviving "approved" answer prints from days of yore are difficult or impossible to come by, a surviving dye transfer print (or even a fade eastman print) does contain extremely important information inclusive of overall density and scene to scene correction, which gives the proper densities for "day for night."

RAH
post #170 of 401
Robert I would like your assessment of my photo shopped captures to the transfers we have been given? Are they more pleasing to the look color wise?

Before telling my wife which one was which she agreed on all except for the blue dress shot that mine looked the best. She said the flesh tones looked a little too yellow in that shot. But she totally hated all the new DVD captures again this is before I told her what this whole deal was over!

Wes
post #171 of 401
Quote:
This seems to be assuming all sorts of things, such as, but not limited to: that expert workmanship shouldn't lead to noticeable differences in color for Oz from transfer to transfer, that even original 1939 dye transfer prints had identical coloring, and that there is such a thing as "the" original print for color reference. These would all be wrong.
To me what appears wrong is your cut and paste of my post to make some pronouncement of yours. What I did was ask a series of questions including:

"How do we know the dye transfers match what the filmmakers approved?"

Quote:
But without having knowledge of the film's history, you're not really in a position to judge the look on its merits, either, no matter how long you wait around.* If you're going to demand adherence to a single acceptable coloring (a first mistake that likely throws off the remainder of the endeavor beyond repair), and if this is only going to go on what you like, or what you think happens to be what was on the set (as if that which was visible to human eyes on the set was not itself variable from shot to shot by standard changing of lighting, etc.!), you won't be any closer to finding out whether the film achieves a proper look. * Nor am I, which is why I choose not to wait around until some internal voice decides on its own that I somehow do know enough to make that judgment.
Thanks for the sermon. But I've already posted that I'd like to compare the film to matte paintings from the film. That and others have suggested that the screen prints may not truly represent the DVD results.

Quote:
The entire ideal of "the original dye transfer print" is a myth. Of the original dye transfer prints, few, if any (say, about 1%), had completely accurate color as was to be found in the negative (er, well, assuming for a moment that the negative wasn't a bunch of black-and-white strips and was color). The majority of those original prints would have had defective colors, to one small degree or another, in one direction or another, in each of the three strips. Those original prints also would have obscured some fine detail held in the negative, given the soft reproduction of the time.
Your smugness/sarcasm to other posters is understood. What is not understood is where you gained that smugness. When exactly did you work for Technicolor?

Quote:
As compared to 1939, the new DVD can be more accurate as to the color as found on the negative. There is little to worry about, anyway, as the new transfer's colors are, with much thanks from this corner of the world, confirmed by those who should know to be well within the acceptable range for the film.
No one has confirmed anything other than their own opinions. However, with one change of settings Wes shows how a balance could be derived between the two DVD releases. So while the rest of us have just been typing away, he actually did something. Whether right or wrong, I would submit that if the colors were as Wes has them this thread would be much thinner.

The core difference between us appears to be that I challenge authority and you defend it. Doesn't make either of us right but I prefer not to do mine from a very high horse.
post #172 of 401
3 more days!!!!!
post #173 of 401
Quote:
A particular print could also have been "approved" by the director/film-maker as being the proper representation of his/her intended work.

I mentioned this in post #160
Quote:
I thought the whole point behind referring to (hopefully) director approved dye transfer prints was that the colors don't fade and therefor are a reasonably* good guide to correct intended color.

*reasonable, not absolute. I understand that they are not totally 100% accurate but I assumed that they were accurate enough to refer to them to begin with.

...as I said, I know DTP's are not a "magic silver bullet" as far as determining intended correct color but I at least thought they were accurate enough to refer to them at all in conjunction with the other aspects of restoration research, which RAH seems to have confirmed with his various statements over the years, which is why I found Damin's statements slightly odd.

I also understand that the new OZ transfer was not merely determined with original (or near original) DTP's, what did they say about this in the docu on the new DVD?



....oh, BTW:
Quote:
Your smugness/sarcasm to other posters is understood. What is not understood is where you gained that smugness.
....I guess you haven't dealt with Damin much have you?
post #174 of 401
Quote:
3 more days!!!!!


HEHEH.....I love you Scott. Your boundless optimism and gee whiz enthusiasm amidst all the bickering is both refreshing and endearing! Thanks
post #175 of 401
I don't know that I would call anything in this thread "bickering" exactly, disagreements & misunderstandings sure, but......put it this way, say "Lucas" reeeal loud and then you will see true bickering!
post #176 of 401
That is quite a price difference. I am not sure that I think Disc 3 is worth another $21 on its own. Probably the 2-discer for me.
post #177 of 401
Quote:
Probably the 2-discer for me.


Same here. There's a £10 price difference between the 2-disc and the 3-disc at Play.com, plus I'd have to fork out another £10 on top of that for customs. Forget it, I love the main feature but the 3rd disc of early silent Oz films don't interest me much, I doubt I would ever watch them more than once if at all.

Plus there is the strong possibility that after I compare this new ultra-resolution yellow-tinted cropped edition of Oz with my previous copy, I'll be blowing a loud raspberry at it and giving it the ol'heave-ho. I sincerely hope not.
post #178 of 401
The third disc was one of the main reasons I've been interested in this release. That and the improved video. I've been completely unimpressed with the video from what I've seen and read and I don't think the third disc is going to be worth it if it's that much more. I might not be double-dipping after all.
post #179 of 401
I'm obviously in the minority in this thread, but I'll be getting and keeping my new three-disc set, and I'll be watching it in the spirit I've mentioned in previous posts and the thought "so this is what the movie is supposed to look like."

With no disrespect to the feelings and expertise of other posters in this thread - and we are all entitled to our opinions - I feel this thread has degenerated out of all proportion into a huge hissy-fit, full of bile directed against a dedicated team of restoration experts at Warner and a highly respected expert in the field who happens to be a member of these forums.

I can't see the set being withdrawn and restored again from scratch to suit the personal aesthetics of those who are offended by what they have seen in a handful of screen grabs, so any arguments are academic. However, I would think it only fair to those who have worked so hard to restore this great movie to actually watch it before passing judgement.

And to those who have seen and passed judgement - who did you have to sleep with?
post #180 of 401
Mark,

Thank you for bringing some needed fresh
air to this thread.

Your post is a necessary read for everyone.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

The Wizard of Oz (Three-Disc Collector's Edition)
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › DVD › Official HTF DVD Reviews › HTF REVIEW: The Wizard Of Oz - Three-Disc Collector's Edition (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED).