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A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD - Page 2

post #31 of 55
10/12/05 at 8:15am
My point being that certain things which are time-consuming and expensive to do with photochemical methods become remarkably straightforward in an electronic system -- even if the results don't turn out much better. Indeed, with electronics it could even become reasonable to collate scanned images from all the available source for a given frame and reduce them to the best-quality image, something which would be absolutley hopeless with optical techniques. That said, do I really expect anyone to do it? Not any time soon.
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post #32 of 55
4/6/07 at 12:16am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Resurrecting this in hopes of a comment from the esteemed RAH

I've finally purchased the MC box set and was A/Bing the audio and I see from what I've read here that Universal had pushed for more effects, and that you had fought to tone them down more in line with the original sound.

One section that baffled me however was the first scene at Ernie's, The score is of course wonderful here, but when I popped over to the mono, it's almost halfway buried under crowd noises.

And it was interesting to think about how this losing the crowd sounds almost focuses the scene - however this would be one case where the powers that be DIDN'T enforce foley.

With the multichannel mix was the decision made to let the music "take over" in these areas more? Any comments about this are appreciated - I must say I appreciate both tracks for different reasons. the mono track, while "authentic" doesn't sound anywhere near the 5.1 with the music. The only foley that truly makes me cringe is the cannon like gunshots in the opening scene.
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post #33 of 55
4/6/07 at 8:42am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

-------------------
From Moe Dickstein:

The only foley that truly makes me cringe is the cannon like gunshots in the opening scene.
---------------

When I saw the restoration at the Ziegfeld in NYC (wow, almost 11 years ago!), those echoing--very digital sounding--gunshots in the opening were the only aspect of the restoration that disturbed me. However, since purchasing the MC box-set I've probably watched Vertigo 3 or 4 times--each time with the mono track. Despite the popping, clicking and slight distortion (all mostly in the first reel) I still find the original track preferable to the "restored" sound. I also find that with the Dolby track I had to constantly adjust my volume as the dialogue seemed too low, and the music/effects seemed too loud; there's no such problem with mono track.
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post #34 of 55
4/6/07 at 8:55am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe Dickstein
The only foley that truly makes me cringe is the cannon like gunshots in the opening scene.

I didn't care for the happy, chirping birds during the redwoods sequence. It really spoiled the mood of that haunting scene.

The other really bad foley moment that comes to mind was when her body lands on the roof. In the original release mono version, you hear it in proper balance with the music. In the new mix, it booms out of the right channel at top volume and sounds like an anvil dropping on a trash dumpster!

I once screened an original 35mm print for a friend that had never seen the film and he was blown away by it. When I showed him that rooftop scene in the new laserdisc, he laughed at the ludicrous sound effect.
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post #35 of 55
4/6/07 at 9:58am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I recently bought the current single DVD of Vertigo, as my copy of the original orange-sleeve edition had "died". Leaving aside some of the relatively subtle points in the mix that have been commented on in this thread, the thing that totally disconcerted me was what I can only describe as the extreme bass rumble that is present in all the music cues. I had to turn my receiver's bass control right down to tame this unwanted effect.

I don't really understand why an LFE track was included in this edition (the first DVD release was just 5.0) for an original 1950's soundtrack that doesn't have any sound effects requiring extreme bass and whose music score involves just standard orchestral instruments (not even a bass drum).

Does the edition of Vertigo included in the box set have a different audio mix from this single DVD edition?
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post #36 of 55
4/6/07 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

In answer to Mr. Dickstein's question, what one hears on the mono track vs. the new stereo is less a function of design and quite a bit that of loss of certain frequencies due to the duping process. As an example, if one compares the opening music, there entire areas of the score which are not reproduced via an optical dupe.
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post #37 of 55
4/6/07 at 12:32pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I shouldnt have mentioned cringe foley at all, as my main thought was about the ambient crowd noises in Ernie's, as this is "foley" (or just live production track of people in a restaurant) that is NOT present in the 5.1 mix, as opposed to the usual case where things are more present in that mix.

My question again, was, was this a distinct choice, to feature only the music here, and what was the thinking behind it. I would assume that since these room/crowd sounds can be heard on the mono track, they weren't lost to duping, was it a case of, since there's no actual dialogue here, the mixing in of the dupe mono audio was not done here, as it had to be with dialogue (and as you mentioned a boosting of the score to cover things that were impossible to extract)

I should have kept my original post more focused
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post #38 of 55
4/6/07 at 1:07pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

There was no thinking behind it.
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post #39 of 55
4/6/07 at 1:13pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
There was no thinking behind it.

Huh? Please explain...
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post #40 of 55
4/6/07 at 1:36pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I assuming RAH meant that it wasn't any sort of deliberate choice.
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post #41 of 55
4/6/07 at 1:51pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe Dickstein
I assuming RAH meant that it wasn't any sort of deliberate choice.

But Moe, when restoring the soundtrack of one of the greatest films of all time by a legendary director, one would hope that every attempt would have been made to preserve and honor the directors intent - both visually and aurally. If Mr. Hitchcock's original approved mono track had the music mixed at a level equal to (or below) the ambient crowd noise in this important scene, he must have made that artistic choice for a specific reason.

Alfred Hitchcock's decision should not have been changed.
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post #42 of 55
4/6/07 at 2:02pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I agree, Bob, but in reading RAH's comments previously, you learn that while this is what he and the restoration team was after, the studio (which owns the film and paid for restoration) wanted wall to wall modern effects and foley.

So a middle ground was reached, and apparantly the current DVD is even closer to the original intent. Life is about compromise. I was more curious about this particular instance, and the last thing I wanted to do was hurl blame or start any sort of 10 year old arguments again
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post #43 of 55
4/6/07 at 2:11pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
But Moe, when restoring the soundtrack of one of the greatest films of all time by a legendary director, one would hope that every attempt would have been made to preserve and honor the directors intent - both visually and aurally. If Mr. Hitchcock's original approved mono track had the music mixed at a level equal to (or below) the ambient crowd noise in this important scene, he must have made that artistic choice for a specific reason.

Alfred Hitchcock's decision should not have been changed.
One of the problems with the mono track as it exists on the most recent DVD is that there is so much dynamic compression on it that these differences in level are pretty well obscured, giving you the choice of the 5.1 track with superior musical fidelity but strange liberties taken with new foley, or a mono track where compression has blended the background hiss, music, effects, and dialog into a smeared mess. One hopes that a better source for the original mix turns up some day, but the fact that one has not shown up in the last 12 years is apparently not due to a lack of looking for it. If nothing else, the mono track is probably representative of optical release prints, which gives it the edge in verisimilitude, but it's still pretty disappointing.

Regards,
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post #44 of 55
4/6/07 at 2:31pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

RAH,

If Universal (or Criterion which I've suggested in another thread) were to go back and do a proper special edition of Vertigo, would there be a reason to do a revised 5.1 track based off your original intent for the project?

Also is it too late for Ultra Resolution?
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post #45 of 55
4/6/07 at 2:34pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I understand Ken. There are several well known film collectors/archivists with pristine 35mm optical mono tracks on this film. They could be located with a minimal amount of effort.

In fact, I heard one of those tracks in a show several years ago at the Museum of the Moving Image in New York, and the sound was terrific!
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post #46 of 55
4/7/07 at 10:48am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

That an excellent point, Bob.

Let's hope someday Universal gives Vertigo's original mono mix the respect it deserves.
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post #47 of 55
4/7/07 at 2:32pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Any word on a high definition release of this great film?
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post #48 of 55
4/7/07 at 2:48pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Great question Larry. ....somewhere it was mentioned that along with Psycho, Universal would be releasing Vertigo this year on HD DVD. There were a few others mentioned too....I've got to go find that link!
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post #49 of 55
4/7/07 at 3:46pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover
Great question Larry. ....somewhere it was mentioned that along with Psycho, Universal would be releasing Vertigo this year on HD DVD. There were a few others mentioned too....I've got to go find that link!

Psycho was announced, but nothing else. However, Psycho and The Birds are both getting Legacy Series 2-disc editions at the end of the year (though, they'll most likely be identical to the Masterpiece Collection versions except with the feature-length documentaries included instead of on the MC 15th bonus disc).
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post #50 of 55
4/8/07 at 10:34am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I first saw the movie in it's restored form and wouldn't have it any other way. I tried to go back and listen to the original mono track, but it just couldn't compare to the image. I was finally able to see it in 70mm here in Los Angeles, and I couldn't help but notice how beautiful it sounded, clearly the old track would have been laughable if projected with the restoration.


Also, what would be the point of releasing a Vertigo Legacy if they did not add something that we didn't already have? The only thing I can see them releasing is the anamorphic version in the Masterpiece set. (It would be really nice to get some new bonus features that focus on the making of the film. I enjoyed AMC's documentary, but it would have been better if Universal put together new features like they did for his other films).
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post #51 of 55
4/8/07 at 10:53am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane101
Also, what would be the point of releasing a Vertigo Legacy if they did not add something that we didn't already have?
So an anamorphic version was available on its own.
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post #52 of 55
4/8/07 at 11:59am

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
So an anamorphic version was available on its own.

Exactly. Technically, they could make it a 2-disc SE if they put "Shadow of a Genius" on the second disc (excellent feature-length documentary on all of his career). They could also clean up the mono track, re-do the 5.1 remix, and include a music-only track.

(By the way, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a Rod Taylor/Tippi Hedren commentary on The Birds)
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post #53 of 55
4/8/07 at 12:07pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I am so thrilled that I got to view The Birds with Tippi Hedren in attendance here at the Hollywood Bar and Filmworks. She signed a photo, had her picture taken with me, and answered questions after the screening. I got to ask a question. I asked if Hitchcock gave the actors free reign with their roles. She said she couldn't speak for anyone else, but having Hitch direct her was like taking an acting master class. She said they had a period of rehearsal in which she developed her character and when filming was ready they had every shot down. I went up to her after the screening and thanked her for coming and told her that I am an actor. She said the best advice she could give is to watch all of Hitch's films and study every shot. She's a fun, classy, wonderful lady...and very tiny in person.
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post #54 of 55
4/8/07 at 5:48pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

The Hollywood Bar & Filmworks has unfortunately closed now, but that's interesting that you were able see Hedren. People don't get a lot of chances to meet Hitchcock's collaborators. Kim Novak made an appearance at Hollywood’s Egyptian Theater in 2004 during a Vertigo screening, but I doubt she will do anything like that in the near future.

Isn't "Shadow of a Genius" a more generic Hitchcock documentary? While it would be interesting to see this on a new DVD I am hoping for a documentary more Vertigo specific.
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post #55 of 55
4/8/07 at 5:59pm

Re: A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD

I was sorry to see the theatre go. A few weeks after Hedren appeared, Linda Blair was there to present The Exorcist, but I couldn't make it.
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