Blu-ray / HD DVD War...the end is near: - Page 4  

They could do it by including an updated list of revoked decryption keys on every disc. If a player sees its own key on the list, it could disable itself.

But it would still play CD's and SD's.


Cees

David, I had a slightly similar situation take place recently. Some family and friends were over to watch the "Shrek" sequel. The film looked so good that after it ended a discussion began about whether the new HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs were even needed or not. I said that I felt once people see their favorite films in hi-def people will want them that way only. But everyone else agreed that current DVD was good enough, there was no need for these new formats. Well it just so happened, and I SWEAR I did not know this, that the original Shrek was being shown that very night by CBS, and I get the local affiliate in HD. When I switched my set from the DVD input to Shrek in Hi-Def you could have put a match to a stick of dynamite and they still would have refused to leave that room. They sat there silent until the commercial break, then all they could do was ask when the first discs in either Hi-Def medium would be availabe.

So yes, I totally agree with you. There's going to be A LOT of people out there who suddenly realize that, as good as standard DVD is, it's not "good enough".

It would almost be worth it to watch all of the class-action lawsuits that would trigger...... If I legally bought a disc at Walmart and the some studio exec disabled my player because some teenager in the Netherlands cracked that particular title (and you know it will happen; I'm betting within the first few months or even weeks).... That would go over real big.....

Another point, I'm sure it's been brought up--but even if people do figure out how to crack it, doesn't the sheer size of these discs make pirating them over the internet a little unwieldy? Who's going to take the time to bit-torrent a 50 gig file? And then where do they put it and on what media? I know plenty of people have those 100-200 gig HD's, but that's like, what, 2-3 movies on your hard drive before you choke out everything else running on your PC? The cost effectiveness of just buying the retail version, at this point, seems to be the best form of anti-piracy. Downloading a single layer compressed DVD (from 8-9 gigs down to 4.5, typically) is a lot easier than downloading a 50 gig blu-ray disc, then hassling with decoding and shrinking, much less BURNING, even if you figured a way around the encryption. I get the feeling that even people who LIKE piracy would be like "Forget it, I'll just spend the 25-35 bucks and buy it."

For the next 2 to 3 years, I think the idea of piracy is going to be largely academic, as it's just so very inefficient to even mess with it at this point. Especially if they manage to keep the price points down, which they should if they really want the format to take off. It's one of the less quoted reasons for DVD's success--yes, the picture and audio quality are superb, but it's the fact that even the NEW movies typically go for about 15 bucks, and in the VHS days, for the longest time, you were lucky to own a movie for 45 bucks or less.

It wouldn't work quite that way. Your player could be disabled if some teenager in the Netherlands cracked your particular player, not that particular title.

Yeah, theoretically, though there'd be a lot of wrangling both in and out of court first, and the player manufacturer would have to make good on the fact that your (presumably unhacked) player doesn't work anymore.

So there'd be a different class action suit. It would be damned inconvenient if it were to actually happen, but you've got to admit in this litigious society, any player manufacturer that loses his keys and whose already-out-in-the-market player gets shut down by court order is going to get its ass sued by inconvenienced customers, and lose.

Legally, they cannot functionally "destroy" your bought player. All they could do (perhaps, perhaps, if the conditions were very clear to you when you bought it) is: revoke the licence to play that specific format (and legally linked ones). But not previous and other formats.
And it would still be tricky for them.

(Oh, and in practice: how long are "they" going to include your - and every other - revoked player's ID on each and every HD-DVD they bring out??
And, uhm, we're talking about modified players. Would they still follow the instruction not to play that disc containing their MAC-address on a blacklist - if it's still the same.)


Cees

The main issue for me concerning Blu-Ray (as that now looks like the winning format), is that will these Blu-Ray players be able to be made multi-regional?

If you can make them multi-regional, meaning you can play any DVD or Blu-Ray disc from any region, then I will jump on board in about three years time.

The IDs are not unique to individual players, but to an entire line of players, so they couldn't discriminate. This is why I said if the court battle results in a judge saying, "We find for the Plantiffs, the DCTP LLC. The Defendant's keys may be revoked by the Plantiff," the manufacturer(s) whose keys were compromised will have to offer some sort of fix to the problem for their customers or they will end up back in court very soon.

And again, this is assuming the HDCP or AACS licensing body decides that the compromise of the DRM has been a result of negligence or willful malevolence on the part the licensee, and that a court of law agrees, and that the MPAA doesn't decide to just take a cash payment or a "surcharge" to HD disk writeables (as with CD-Rs) instead.

I'm sorry. I just don't see it as realistic to fear my machine is going to be shut down.

Blu-ray has added issues with BD+, and BD+ is very poorly defined, but it is intended to actually be more selective than AACS and HDCP as to who gets their player shut down-- it shuts down the machine only if it discovers it's actually been tampered with, as opposed to shutting down a class of players that could be. I'm told that this is done with discs, not with mandatory internet connections, and I tentatively believe that, so unless and until someone comes out (not the press, they're largely morons) and says I'll have to have mandatory internet for Blu-ray, I'm planning on making a purchase as a "second-wave" adopter (when set top players come out <$500).

Region coding... Yeah, I suspect this one's sticking around. No one's made a public decision about it, but I don't see why they wouldn't at least try to keep it-- nothing about the studio structure overseas has changed much since DVD.

The real question is piracy. Fox, Paramount and Disney have gone with blu-ray because of copy protection. What do the studios consider piracy and what do we consider piracy?
Hollywood's decision to sue over the Betamax shows the kind of world Hollywood would like. One in which no one would be able to make a personal copy for their private use.

Right now, we have unparalleled freedom. For example, I
have taped movies such as Boys Night Out, House of Dark Shadows, and the completely uncut Alamo since Hollywood has
refused to release these titles. I have also made back-up copies of certain movies to save the wear and tear on the
original discs. I took all of the Callisto episodes from both Xena and Hercules and recorded them back to back over a few discs rather than having to go between 4 or 5 different boxsets and then having to find the right discs.
These are things that I would not be able to do if Hollywood had their way.

Now hi-def gives them the opportunity to do that. Blu-ray
(or HD-DVD) is the carrot that allows them to lure us into their web. Once in their web, they can dictate how we use
media and bleed us dry making us pay for the same content
over and over. If you own a model that's been hacked then you get bled dry having to buy a replacement. Suppose you play a dvd+rw or some over recordable disc format. That
could be enough to render your player useless because it might contain a recorded or in Hollywood's opinion pirated,
copy of a movie.

I do want the best picture possibe but I am not willing to
sell my soul to the devil. Maybe some are, but I will keep
my soul and my freedom. I am hoping both formats go down
because the price is not worth it.

Excellent point Robert. When Blue Ray discs are available, it may be the SD versions that continue to be pirated. That and shoplifting of the high definition discs may be high. When the loss is due to shoplifting the studios still make their profit.

To me it just doesn’t seem necessary or in the studio’s best interest to implement a mandatory Internet connection.

Pyschologically I think enthusiasts are telling themselves that Dvd is good enough in order to stop upgraditis from hitting them. Right now w/o a player in sight, we can do that. However when the players are out there and people are gushing over the PQ, people will break down. An enthusiast who has seen HD on an HD projector or TV(Not these 480P wannabes), shouldn't be saying "DVD is good enough". Good enough is for J6p. Enthusiasts are the bleeding edge.

You're completely misunderstanding what these DRM schemes do and how they work if you find this at all plausible. You should do some reading on the topic or you're just going to continue coming across as paranoid. DRM schemes offer enough to worry about without making stuff up.

Some of these discussions remind me of the "Millennium-Bug" (ha, ha) period. People explaining disasters that couldn't even take place because the programs didn't work that way at all (or the consistency-tests they feared weren't there), or were based on other fantasies.


Cees

Agreed that we're getting a little bit carried away with this, but I can't blame them. Mass hysteria is always on the cutting edge..

So, how is my player going to get shut off?

Lets assume that Joe the Idiot figures out how he can output the HD signal over component, and hacks his player. Then he starts making up pirated movies. If his machine is not connected to the Internet/phone, how is any studio going to know that someone was able to hack thier player?

Ok, so the studio gets their hands on a pirated disk and figure out that what, it was made from someone's PC? The HD players can't burn copies!

Yep, I can't see the forest for the trees...

Glenn

It amazes me how many people have their heads buried in the sand. A lot of people probably thought Churchill was hysterical and paranoid when he said
you can't trust Hitler but ultimately was proven right. You can't trust these gigantic media companies either.

There are two undeniable facts about the entertainment industry. They are and have been
opposed to people taping things for their own use.
The second fact is that while DVDs bring in a good chunk of change, studios are willing to do
whatever it takes to get it where it was a few years ago and they don't care who they run over to get it. For example, a lot of Tivo users were surprised to find that something that they had taped several
weeks ago had disappeared. Why? Hollywood had a agreement that placed a signal in the content to dump
it after several weeks. Entertainment companies are also considering suing people who use XM satellite and download songs for their private use on their ipod.

Blu-ray/HD-DVD gives them an unprecedented opportunity to do this. It allows them to take control of your player and disable it through
either a internet connection or through firmware using the very disc the program is on. There is
no doubt that Hollywood will use this to maximize their profits. If they can figure out how to make people pay for the privilege of taping, they will.

I will not sell my soul to the devil. Maybe if both blu-ray and HD-DVD flop then maybe these entertainment giants will get the message that we
refuse to accept draconian copy protection measures.
Being an enthusiast does not mean being a fool.

And the winner of the Godwin's Law Award is...FrancisP! It only took 4 pages, with the extra bonus of irrational hysteria and unfounded rumors!

Dude, when folks like me (card-carrying member of the ACLU, EFF, and Communist conspiracy) think you're acting like Chicken Little, you should probably tone it down a little.

Enough people have to NOT buy it to make it happen. Even then I can assure you that they will blame it again on Copy protection and make it worse. Their "Draconian Copy protection measures" are only going to get worse. It doesn't get easier.

However I don't think too many enthusiasts when they see it will be able to hold out. W/o a product in hand, it's pretty easy to say "I won't buy it then".

I doubt some people's HiDef discs would play very well anyway with all the tinfoil lying around

Is it a unfounded rumor that Hollywood sued Sony over copyright violations with the betamax?

Is it an unfounded rumor that Hollywood is not happy over the drop in revenue?
Maybe someone thinks that Hollywood wants to release movies in hi-def because of their benevolence. They're just doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

I do not intent to tone it down. Based on Hollywood's past behaviour(Anyone remember divyx?), I have no doubt aboutwhat their goal is. All of these things
have been talked about by Hollywood ever since the advent of digital broadcasting. I refuse to bring anything into my house that I do not have 100% control over. If one wants to do that and trust the benevolence of Hollywood then they are a fool. There ain't much difference between the devil and Hollywood.

I think we all believe Hollywood will be releasing HD movies because they see an opportunity to make money. That's what businesses do.

If Hollywood imposes these rumored "draconian" (god, I'm getting sick of that word) copy protection methods, the market will reject it. Hollywood won't make money.

Hollywood will choose to make money.



Anyone remember how the "divyx" studios got their asses handed to them by the market? Remember how fast those studios switched over to DVD and made a fortune?

Even if the rumored copyright schemes are implemented (which I doubt they will be), they'll be promptly abandoned once Hollywood realizes they can make more money without them.

Simple economics.

If one wants to believe that Hollywood is some evil empire out to control our lives rather than a simple, market-driven money-making enterprise, then they are...well I won't call them a fool, but they are seriously misguided and...oh hell, they're a fool.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this blind belief in the free marketplace always working for the benefit of consumers. It's naive to think draconian copy protection or DRM implementations simply won't happen because of capitalism. How do you explain the MPAA?

I don't believe an Internet connection will be required for playback with the new formats, but I am worried about what information will be gathered and by whom even if the feature is optional. How does the user know anonymous viewing statistics or personally identifiable information are not being collected and sold to a third party? Sure you can just disconnect the network cable but aren't you then missing out on some of the features of the new formats?

The greatest trick Hollywood has ever pulled is to make everyone believe it did not exist.

--
H

The MPAA is a creature born out of political considerations, not the marketplace.