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LCD Video Noise

post #1 of 24
9/26/05 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Hey all,

I recently got my first LCD TV. I wanted to ask about something because I am honestly not sure if it's an "issue" or not.

I have a Sony 32 inch LCD Widescreen. It's a Bravia, but not the XBR, it's the midgrade Silver one. When I watch a source, which in my case is exclusively DVD's, any DVD I play is very noisy in the video. I can see the back of scenes "Move" like a grain motion. My TV does have a Noise Reduction Setting that if I put on high, stablizes the image perfectly.

I guess what I am asking is in the realm of LCD TVs, should I be having to use that NR option and particularly on high? Is that just a normal thing for LCD TVs?

Is there any downside to using the NR feature? Just for comparison, if anyone else uses a simular feature, I would like to know.

MY DVD player is a brand new Sony upconverting DVD player. Though I am not using the Upconverting feature yet, the cable is on order. (HDMI) For now I have it hooked up via S-Video, so I'm not even seeing 480p. I'll be glad when I can fully use my player!

So anyway... thoughts on that NR? Thanks!
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post #2 of 24
9/27/05 at 3:00am
Thread Starter 
Anyone? If something is wrong with my Set... I need to find out so I can exchange it.
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post #3 of 24
9/27/05 at 8:13am
I was holding back comment until you can try some Component and/or HDMI connections.

You should really only need noise reduction on bad NTSC sources, even then it is questionable usually having some trade offs to get the cleaner looking video.
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post #4 of 24
9/27/05 at 11:47am
Thread Starter 
Oh ok. Getting the cable will still be about a week away. So I shouldn't be having to use the NR feature? Like I said it just clears the picture up... it gets rid of the "GRain motion" I can see around images. I hope I am explaining that clear enough.

Is there a downside to using the NR? Or to the point, is something wrong with my TV? Some salesman I think it was told me all LCDs have a bit of noise when you buy them... till the set is broken in a bit. I don't know if I should buy that explanation...
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post #5 of 24
9/27/05 at 12:17pm
NR can at times introduce it's own set of oddities. I know I have even seen it clip both blacks and whites on various displays. As in you can't calibrate correctly with it on.
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post #6 of 24
9/27/05 at 9:08pm
Just wondering, would lowering the sharpness help? I know it causes CRT's to look lousy when up too high.

Larry
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post #7 of 24
9/28/05 at 9:03am
That is a great point Larry.


I didn't even ask if he attempted to calibrate or anything.
Try playing around with the THX optimizer and see if you can gain any improvements Adam. THX Optimizer is available on many modern DVD's, not as good as a real calibration disk, but at least can get you in the ball park and provide lots of improvement.
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post #8 of 24
9/28/05 at 11:42am
Thread Starter 
I have calibrated it a bit but not too much. My sharpness I know is less than 10 right now. I have alot of DVDs with the THX optimizer. I also have a Home Theater Enhancement Disc I got with a disc cleaner that I use, though it's pretty basic. I also have Avia, I actually downloaded it the other day. (Yeah yeah) but it has soooooooo many config screens... damn!

Since I'm waiting for an HDMI cable and I am going to have to calibrate all over again, I have not thoroughly went through Avia. I'm using S Video right now and just kind of eyeing the picture.
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post #9 of 24
9/28/05 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
I hate to ask this but would someone mind explaining (Or linking me to) exactly what the Cinemotion (3:2 pulldown) actually is, does and it what situations am I going to want to use it?

Thanks!

By the way I just tried to tweak my system using the generic DVD I mentioned I have and I can't get the black level even close to right. I literally had the settings full blast and still could not see the lighter of the black bars... actually I couldnt see any of the black bars used in the test. Maybe it's because I'm using S-Video.

Again, not really gonna worry about it till my HDMI cable gets here. If I still can't see the test... THEN I'll be worried. Now I know why Quantam Leap seemed so Dark though!
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post #10 of 24
9/28/05 at 1:37pm
3:2 pull down is a way to get film (30 frames per second)based material to nearly flawless 24 frames per second (Video).

You would want it on film based DVDs and Laserdiscs, well VCR too I suppose anything film based fed to the display Interlaced 480i.
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post #11 of 24
9/28/05 at 1:41pm
Thread Starter 
Do all TVs have it or is it something LCD Tvs specifically need? My old normal TVs never mentioned anything like that but of course the images always moved fine as far as I could tell...

It's only for 480i? So once I am using Upconverting HMDI, I can turn it off?
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post #12 of 24
10/1/05 at 11:47pm
Thread Starter 
I got my HDMI cable today but have not had time to do any calibration. I have a few questions though, some may seem really dumb so forgive me.

Is there a way to know what my sets "Native" or optimal resolution is? It supports 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i but I was just wondering if it has a certain setting that is ideal.

Also on my upconverting DVD player, which is better, 720p or 1080i? I have a feeling that is a very loaded question...
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post #13 of 24
10/2/05 at 2:45am
Well, it all depends. 720p I'm assuming is your TV's native resolution. Either 480, 720, or 1080 could look better to you. It varies by the setup and on a 32 inch it may be hard to tell. I have a SONY LCD and the picture is gorgeous. However, it took me a while to tweak it. I recommend searching the AVS forum for your TV model number and getting settings suggestions from them.
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post #14 of 24
10/2/05 at 10:48am
Thread Starter 
Mine is a 32 inch Sony as well. KLV-S32A10. The TV supports all those resolutions, but I guess that doesnt nessicarily mean which is native or optimal huh?

I still have that video noise even in HDMI by the way. I may never know if it's normal or something is wrong with a part of my equipment. Guess I can't worry about it anymore. I just have to have that NR on high and I don't know if that setting has any adverse afects.
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post #15 of 24
10/2/05 at 2:38pm
Noise Reduction should be on either Low or Off. If your settings are correct, there shouldn't be that much video noise.
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post #16 of 24
10/2/05 at 2:44pm
All LCD's suffer to some extent from what's called "FPN" or Fixed Panel Noise (or Fixed Pattern Noise as it's sometimes called) which can cause a momentary gridlike appearance in moving scenes with solid color backgrounds. The more extreme case of FPN is called Vertical Banding (VB) which causes vertical lines in the above condition. When you have it, it's a bit more noticable than FPN.

Could this be what you're seeing? It's fairly normal. But it sounds like your problem may be source related.

I wouldn't crank the sharpness up on any display. Try to calibrate it with Video Essentials or Avia or some similar tool.
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post #17 of 24
10/2/05 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
I have tweaked the heck out of my system using Avia, I did it last night. Sharpness is very low. I should have NR either low or off? Uh oh... that's not what I was hoping to hear.

Still, is this probably source relatated? It's definately not the TV?

What would be a good movie, or type of movie to test the noise? I have alot of DVDs, and all of Pixar's films. Would the digital transfers of those maybe be a good test bed? Thanks for suggestions.

Quote:
All LCD's suffer to some extent from what's called "FPN" or Fixed Panel Noise (or Fixed Pattern Noise as it's sometimes called) which can cause a momentary gridlike appearance in moving scenes with solid color backgrounds. The more extreme case of FPN is called Vertical Banding (VB) which causes vertical lines in the above condition. When you have it, it's a bit more noticable than FPN.


That could be it. I can just best describe it as grain motion around scenes and backgrounds. It's partically noticable in dark scenes. It's also really really noticable on older shows on DVD. I was just watching Quantam Leap for example.
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post #18 of 24
10/2/05 at 7:41pm
Is it around the edges of objects?
That would probably be source related.

I can't think of a good test for FPN or VB off the top of my head. Any solid color background on a panning motion shot. I'm surprised you're seeing it in dark scenes. That doesn't sound like FPN. It should look like a texture or even a slight emphasis of screen door. It's sometimes described as the "dirty screen" look.
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post #19 of 24
10/3/05 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Last night I had a chance to watch my first live action movie since I got my upconverting DVD player and I'm happy to say my set is now looking freakin gorgeous. I dont know if its the upconverting but the whole time I kept saying to myself "Damn this looks clear."

I watched The Rock Criterion and it looked excellent AND it has no video noise. I think I had the setting between low and off but either looked fine. I think my TV is finally set, so I can stop worrying. I'm seeing the picture I thought I would see after paying $2000!

My problems have definately been source related. Not DVD or TV, but the DVDs I was watching. I will remember next time to TRY OUT MORE DISCS!

Thanks for all the replies.
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post #20 of 24
10/3/05 at 2:49pm
HDTV's are so good, they reveal less than steller transfers from film to DVD easily.

Not all transfers are created equal, that is for darn sure.

I even have a few instances where the transfer on my laserdisc is better than the transfer to the DVD I purchased to replace the laserdisc.

The majority of DVD's are fantastic, but there are a few that people notoriously complain about the transfer or copy of the film that was used for it.
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post #21 of 24
11/13/05 at 11:14am
Adam,

The native resolution of your set is 1366 x 768. I have the KLV-S26A10. This is a very, very fine set, though it took me a while to calibrate it.

Also, because the set's resolution is so high, and it is a fixed pixel display, it is going to be far less forgiving than say a regular CRT unit. Flaws in the picture will be more easily visible, but when HD-DVD comes out, the picture will be that much more stunning and clear.

The ideal settings for this set for me are:

Picture Mode: Pro
Picture (Contrast): Maximum (with the light sensor set to "ON" in the "SETUP part of the Settings menu; this adjusts the contrast of the display via an ambient room light sensor)
Brightness: 53
Color: 45
Hue: 0
Sharpness: Min
Color Temp: Neutral
CineMotion: On
Black Corrector: Off
NR: Off
Backlight: Max

What settings are you using???
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post #22 of 24
11/13/05 at 11:25am
Noise Reduction algorithms can work well, but usually they are complicated to implement I wouldn't particulatly use them as found in cheaper consumer gear. Better NR processing can work nicely, but there is some loss of image detail at the same time that the mosquito noise can be stabilized. If you are going to use NR processing, use it very very sparingly, and go back and forth to compare paying especially close attention to facial details. You may decide that the loss in good detail may outwiegh the loss of the "bad" detail (noise) in the picture.
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post #23 of 24
11/13/05 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Randall,

Thanks for those settings. I went ahead and tried them in the Pro mode for DVDs since it kindly saves different modes for us.

My settings I've been using and like are the following:

Standard Picture Mode
Picture 85
Brightness 52
Color 52
Hue 0
Sharpness 10
Color Temp Neutral
Cinemotion On
Black Corrector Off
NR Between Low and Medium
Backlight 5
I do not use the Light Sensor.

I switched back and fourth with our settings and they aren't far off. Mine has a bit more color perhaps.

I was wondering, does actually selecting Pro or Normal make a difference? I thought (Maybe mistakingly) that each setting was a Preset and if you made any adjustments, each setting could actually be identical. Or is there actually a BASE DIFFERENCE in the settings between Normal, Pro, etc?

I had stop worrying about the NR, once I realized it was just my sources that look good or bad. The TV is fine. It's just showing every flaw or any bad transfer my DVDs have.
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post #24 of 24
11/14/05 at 8:27pm
I switched back and fourth with our settings and they aren't far off. Mine has a bit more color perhaps.

Adam,

Everyone's preferences are a little different. I mainly used the THX optimizer and my own eye.

I was wondering, does actually selecting Pro or Normal make a difference? I thought (Maybe mistakingly) that each setting was a Preset and if you made any adjustments, each setting could actually be identical. Or is there actually a BASE DIFFERENCE in the settings between Normal, Pro, etc?


There is definately a base difference in the settings. Most important, the PRO setting is the only one that doesn't have any edge enhancement with the sharpness set to minimum. It also has, IMO, the most natural looking color tones.

I had stop worrying about the NR, once I realized it was just my sources that look good or bad. The TV is fine. It's just showing every flaw or any bad transfer my DVDs have.


I have the same problem. The TV is so clear, I can even see flaws in HD broadcasts through my cable box. Your best bet is set the sharpness to minimum (to eliminate any artificially induced noise), and lengthen viewing distance a little.

I can't wait for Blu-ray discs - they really should look amazing on this display.
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