The Man From UNCLE?? - Page 8

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

I know the rights you mentioned like the back of my hand since the Laserdisc days but that doesn't seem to hold up with DVD releases. Many of MGM's holdings: TV shows like Green Acres and Mr. Ed, The Midnight movies and many others were released by Sony and now MGM is using Fox to do these. The actual MGM old films seem to still all be owned and released by Warner. Since MGM TV product from the same era as U.N.C.L.E. like Green Acres, Mr. Ed, Rat Patrol were all released by Sony and now apparently FOX it is definately true that the non-MGM films rights are still all over the place and I still doubt if Warner owns the rights to U.N.C.L.E. If they did and they think its a valuable property like they are claiming now then they would have released this a long time ago. If we are saying that these TV shows are not part of the MGM catalog then Warner definately does not own UNCLE because they have never released it on VHS or Laserdisc that was MGM.

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Surely Green Acres was made by Filmways and probably(?) came under United Artists' control. This in turn would have been brought under MGM/UA control and is now owned by the conglomerate (which includes Sony) that bought MGM/UA a year or so ago. None of this surely has anything to do with MGM material (be it TV or film) made before 1986 (approx date) that now is owned by Warners. As to whether there is something special about UNCLE, who knows!

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UNCLE was released under MGM/UA on Home Video. Rat Patrol is also a UA property I believe. The DVD was prepared by MGM but then released by Sony when they started doing MGM releases and this is a pre-1986 also. Again I have no doubt that Warner owns all films made by MGM pre-1986 its U/A films(i.e. midnight movies) and or TV that seems to be in Question.
I'm not at all impressed with Warner's lackluster TV/Animation releases so I pray they do not have the rights to UNCLE. Anchor Bay would no doubt do a stellar job with it.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

The key point that's being lost in the shuffle here is that UNCLE was *produced* by MGM's TV division in the 1960s. That means it is part of the pre-86 MGM library owned now by Warner.

The 60s shows that today's MGM releases on DVD like "Rat Patrol", "Outer Limits" etc. were not produced originally by MGM, they were produced by UA television which came under MGM's corporate control later and were not part of the sale to Turner in 86.

Likewise, Green Acres was produced by Filmways at the time, which came first under the corporate control of Orion, and then eventually today's MGM. The bottom line is that there is no gray zone whatsoever on UNCLE's status: Produced by MGM's TV division in the 60s (as opposed to the other shows), that means it's free and clear under Warner's control via Turner.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Exactly. The confusion arises in that when Turner bought MGM and all of it's properties, UA was spun off into it's own company and took the title of MGM. MGM as it has been known for the last 20 years is actually UA under a different name. That's where the confusion arises. Green Acres and Mr. Ed were Filmways which became Orion which was bought by the NEW MGM (formerly UA). But the UNCLE lineage is very clear MGM to Turner to Warner, case closed. Arena Productions and 93 year old Norman Felton may have retained some rights to the characters (and even that may be questionable) but they certainly hold no rights to home video distribution of this or any other series they produced.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

There is one entity that has seen Ember's claim firsthand and that is AB. That was enough for them a good chunk of change to a dvd release. Unlike you, I don't believe that AB is run by a bunch of boobs. I do believe that they checked this out thoroughly. Since they are not a studio with a studio catalog, copyright issues are something they deal with on a routine basis.
Or maybe some people think that you can walk over to AB, say you have a property and they'll shove a check into your hand.

Previous home video releases don't indicate a thing. As has been stated, Warner was not involved in those releases and the major studios were the only game in town for home video. It is also possible that a side agreement was created to allow the rights to revert to Arena in return for allowing a video release. The movies are a different kettle of fish. Various degrees of extra footage was shot for the movies. That and the fact that they have never been released on VHS or laserdisc may be the reason that Ember is not making a claim on the movies.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

I don't think anybody so much as intimated that AB were a bunch of boobs. They'll obviously have done their homework and checked that everything was all right first. You don't invest serious money in buying rights and preparing material for a DVD release without making sure nothing can go wrong first. You're absolutely right about AB (and I wouldn't argue the point anyway) - they have a long and respected track record in releasing catalogue material, so if anybody is an expert in dealing with IP rights, it will be them. I consider AB to be the victims in this rather sorry saga, and would apologise to them if I'd inferred any other way.

I don't think there are necessarily any villains in this matter. Obviously (if you'll excuse a little speculation), Ember are convinced they have video rights. Warner appear to have woken up a little late in the day to the announcement of AB's set and lodged a complaint. They are convinced of their possession of the video rights. Based on what flimsy evidence we have so far and the informed speculation of the various posters on this thread, Warner Home Video have the most straightforward claim to the series. Ember are owners of the show's format via Norman Felton's Arena Productions.

It strikes me that maybe the reason Warner have never attempted to release the series in R1 (and that the R2 release never went further than five of the movie versions) is that they knew there would be an IP rights feud.

I'm not pointing fingers, but I'd like to suggest that IP rights disputes may be a bigger threat to the industry than all the video pirates put together, and unless agreements about fair licensing of material (either for quotation or release) can be established, the whole Hollywood system could easily grind to a halt under the sheer dead weight of entertainment lawyers.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Warner may have the most straightforward claim but that does not mean they are right. The document that Ember has is the wildcard. No one on this forum knows what that document is. We do know it was enough for AB to
commit to a release. Their lawyers had to go into this thinking the same thing. Yet that document was enough to convince AB's lawyers to okay this. That indicates that Ember's claim is based on more than just owning the format. Any side agreement that Arena reached with the rightsholders at the time would be legally binding on Warner.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Agreed. Like I said, it took them until AB announced their set before their lawyers dogpiled on it.
Conjecture! What document? Do we know they had a piece of paper that said "Video Rights" on it?
Again conjecture, based on the above. And the last statement: Arena were the rightsholders of part of the format, Warner (as inheritors of Turner Communications as buyers of the MGM catalogue) being the other partner. Ember (as licensees of Arena's rights) believe they have video rights. They may, they may not. We don't know, because we're not party to the subtleties of the contracts written up between Norman Felton, Sam Rolfe and MGM Television when the show was originally made.

The bottom line is we don't know who has the best claim to the rights. That is up to the courts. Whether Warner or Ember is in the right, or who is the villain in this matter is just a matter of opinion. Does it really matter? I think the speculation on this thread is fascinating, and if it keeps the thread open (and if Warner monitor it) all the better.

If we ultimately find out Warner have sunk the release without a good reason, then FrancisP can tell us all "I told you so". If Ember didn't have the rights in the first place the rest of us can say "I told you so".

That's all this thread adds up to.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

I'm just wondering if the only real action has been cease and desist type letters from the lawyers or whether real court action has occurred. If there have been real court filings the general public may have the ability to view some of those actual filings. Does anyone know the name and location of the court and or the docket number or anything else specific about the case and or if a restraining order was issued? I'd love to look up any filings that are publicly available. That might shed some light on this subject.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Even though this was produced by MGM-TV they still may not hold the rights or they could have expired. MGM produced the Flipper TV show in the 60's but that series reverted to Ivan Tors company after MGM initially syndicated this show. You never know where the rights end-up these days but Ivan Tors company was bought by the Goldwyn Company who was bought by Orion who was bought by the New MGM so I believe it is back with them. Hopefully we will see this show soon. Hopefully by AB as the smaller companies tend to do a better job with classic tv series.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Obviously Ember does have documentation that the AB lawyers examined. If they didn't AB would never have okayed its release. They obviously believe that documentation does give them the home video rights. It may be documents dating back to the original agreements between MGM and Arena or it may be some side agreements that were reached between the rightsholders and Arena over the years.

Get Smart is a good example. Everyone assumed Paramount held the rights but it will be released by Warner's Time-Life division. I suspect part of the reason is that it was produced in association with Talent Associates.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Well, as for the first thing, it was about 15 years ago when the collector's world was excited about Adventures in Paradise coming to USA network. They were promoting it, they had mastered all of the episodes, it was even listed in TV Guide. Except for one thing - they didn't get it from Fox, who owned it but from someone else who claimed to own it. No doubt this person or company who claimed the rights may have held some documentation as well. But to say that a major company can't get bamboozled that easily is really not true. It has happened before and it can happen again.

As for Get Smart, well that's a perfect example of the difference between syndication rights and ownership of a property. Talent Associates was sold by David Susskind to Time Life in 1978 and with it I'm sure went the rights to his series, of which Get Smart was the most successful. All Paramount got through their purchase of Spelling/Worldvision/Republic was the syndication rights.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Big companies can make mistakes and Warner could be the one making the mistake. AB and USA are two different entities. In the past, USA has been part of a large conglomerate. That means they can make a mistake and it doesn't hurt as much. It also means that they likely do not have to deal with rights issues very often.

AB is a much smaller company. Since they do not have any access to a studio library, except for those they license, they likely have more expertise
in dealing with rights issues. If they make a mistake it can be more costly.
While they can be fooled, it would take a lot more to fool them than it would Warner.

As a result, I believe that Ember's claim is a very valid one. To use the word bamboozle seems to suggest dishonesty on Ember's part. That is silly when we do not even know what the facts are. I think what we have is two parties with valid claims and the court will see which claim is more valid.

The point with Get Smart is that the home video rights can be seperated. Talent Associates is not that different from Arena Productions. It is possible over the years that the home video rights have reverted back to Arena Productions. That could be the document that Ember has.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

I'd agree that Ember shouldn't be accused of dishonesty (not that I think anybody actually was - the statement referred to USA Network's problems, which were probably a simple misunderstanding as well.) Ember obviously have a compelling case that they have the video rights, otherwise AB would not have set the project in motion. They weren't born yesterday. Although there is evidence for Warner's case from what is in the public domain, I think the jury is still out on whether the rights are theirs. (IMHO) Warner may have stamped on this release in the hope they would be able to wrest back (or away) any home video rights from other parties in the courts.

I still wonder if the reason so many of the really classic series made by production companies rather than directly by Studios haven't been released on DVD is down to having to share profits...

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

All of this speculation of video rights of U.N.C.L.E. is tiresome. How about we wait until an official release date is announced before posting further? Or better yet, how about we discuss the show itself instead?

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

We do that all of the time at the Channel D Yahoo group. However, since this forum is solely devoted to DVD releases past, present and future, that is where the speculation should be discussed.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Agree wholeheartedly. It has gotten both boring and repetitive of late.
Give it (and us) a break already!
How

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Sounds good to me.

I'd hope (from an R2 standpoint) that when* it comes round to the two-parter/ movie episodes we perhaps get both cuts. I've got a box set of colour Saint episodes by an outfit called DDHE who only included the theatrical versions of the two stories issued that way. There's a different set by Network which includes both versions, but I preferred the overall package the DDHE version offered.

I'd particularly like to see just how different the two versions of my favourite story "The Karate Killers" are.

Anybody got any thoughts on whether the movie versions should be presented as 1.85:1 or 4:3? The R2 release of five of the movies presented them as 4:3, which is the correct tv format, but wouldn't the movies have been shown 1.85:1?

*eternal optimist.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Once Man from U.N.C.L.E. comes to DVD, do you think as a bonus they will also have the unaired "Solo" pilot, which was actually The Vulcan Affair and is more than 1 hour long and filmed in color? As well as the feature film extended version of the pilot "To Trap a Spy"?

I can't understand why NBC didn't run an edited version of the pilot instead, because they had more color shows on the air than any network at the time. Then the B & W U.N.C.L.E. episodes could still play (which they did) for the rest of the first season.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Not counting To Trap A Spy, there are actually 4 different versions in existence of the pilot. There is the original black and white Solo pilot, which runs about 53 minutes. There is the aired black and white pilot. I also have recorded from syndication a color version of the aired pilot in which they put 2nd season color credits on and then did the closing credits in sepia tone. Finally, there is a much longer, color version of Solo that runs over 60 minutes. No doubt all of these are not anywhere but in Warner's vaults so those who were hoping for this set to come from Ember will not see most of these if that happens.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

It is very unlikely that MGM would have bothered to store the different versions of the pilot. It is possible that Ember could have access to some of the various versions of the pilot from Norman Felton and Arena Productions.
It is also very likely that some of the extras planned come from Arena and might not be available to Warner. It's sad because Warner and AB each hold pieces of the puzzle. If they combined their pieces it would make a heck of a puzzle. Unfortunately Warner has the arrogance that most of these big media companies have. I haven't forgotten that they are also blocking Batman from coming to dvd. Thanks a lot Warner.

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That's the one that is avoidable, because it was was re-edited. I haven't seen a first season show with 2nd season credits and although I prefer the second season montage and theme this is one extra that wouldn't be likely to be included in any disc release.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Well. from the resounding silence I take it that there's been no progress on this release? No ones heard any further rumors?

Guess I'll continue to record the ALN showings and burn my own discs. They're currently midway through Season 3.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

So I guess I'm not giving up the tapes I have. Bummer, I was eager to see how Anchor Bay would do this.

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Hehe, maybe the webshop where I usually order my tv dvd:s have inside information. According to them the release date is 31/12-2025...

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It's an evil THRUSH conspiracy!

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

Right now, somewhere in Warner, a Thrush agent giggles madly...

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

So, six months after this whole rights issue raised its ugly head and still no resolution? Anyone heard anything new about this or this release going to remain in limbo?

It's a shame that there's a release sitting there ready to be issued but we may not ever see it.

Re: The Man From UNCLE??

There isn't likely to be any resolution anytime soon. Warner's strategy is likely to be delay, delay, delay, and rely on their deep pockets to win rather than having this abdjucated in court.