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post #2251 of 2280
7/16/08 at 2:19pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

I am no fan of bad boys 2.. lets keep that movie out of the conversation.

Jacoeb
post #2252 of 2280
7/16/08 at 2:26pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Not applicable. Comparing whether Godfather is better made than Pee-wee's Big Adventure is a straw man. The two films are in vastly different genres and designed to meet different objectives.

The two films being discussed are within the same genre and have the same main character. The argument of whether one is better than the other is specific. My contention was that if the viewer liked Batman and Robin better than Batman Begins then it stands to reason that the first one better met his criteria for an enjoyable Batman film: therefore, for him, it was a better made film than Batman Begins.

Alright, how about this. I think X2 is the better film but I enjoy watching X3 more. There IS a difference between knowing something is better but enjoying something else more.

Another example.. I enjoy eating ice cream as a dessert more than strawberries. But strawberries are better for me and will help me better in the long run of my life

Quote:
Also cutting random images with repetitious dialogue and cutting them together does not constitute a valid criticism of the film, since it takes those images out of context with the rest of the film. The clip is funny but essentially meaningless.

Oh it's just a fun clip. And probably a better movie than the actual movie.
post #2253 of 2280
7/16/08 at 2:37pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent M
I never thought I'd find anyone else on HTF who felt the same way about this movie as I do. Even though it was destroyed by nearly all the critics, I absolutely LOVED it. I know it's mindless, crude, and very non-PC(which is always a good thing in my book), but I appreciated the fact that Michael Bay just said "f**k it, let's blow up as much s**t as we possibly can for two hours". I wish they'd all get back on board for Bad Boys III.
I normally hate dumb 'spolsion movies and I loved Bad Boys II for the same reasons that you stated.
post #2254 of 2280
7/16/08 at 2:43pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
I sure wouldn't call someone a moron because his or her opinion of a movie doesn't coincide with mine.

I don't think that Batman and Robin is a better movie than Batman Begins, but if someone thinks otherwise then so what. All it means, is that their criteria for a good Batman flick differs from mine.



If you kids thought Batman & Robin was bad you should see some of the Japanese junk I've watched recently. Machine Girl anyone?

I like Batman Begins, I like the different direction it took but my favorite Batman film remains Tim Burton's 1989 gothic classic which was a massive success back then. Danny Elfman's Batman theme is a big favorite too.

Looking forward to seeing Dark Knight, though maybe not as deliriously as you guys seem to be. If it's as good as Iron Man I'll be very happy.
post #2255 of 2280
7/16/08 at 2:58pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun
Even when attempting to view both movies subjectively and respecting the fact that both are different adaptations of the same character, I can't think of one way that Batman and Robin is a better film than Batman Begins.

Bat Skates
post #2256 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:01pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
I can't think of one way that Batman and Robin is a better film than Batman Begins.

Well I like Uma Thurman a lot more than I do Katie Holmes for a start, though Uma was pretty dreadful in Batman.
post #2257 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:04pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Christou


I like Batman Begins, I like the different direction it took but my favorite Batman film remains Tim Burton's 1989 gothic classic which was a massive success back then. Danny Elfman's Batman theme is a big favorite too.

The first one is my favourite out of the earlier iteration of the character. I didn't much care for the sequels. Although, I will be tempted to pick up the second one when it comes out on Blu.

I'm not fussy for the storyline. I thought it was a little too over-the-top, but....damn....I like the scene where Catwoman handflips toward Batman and The Penguin, stops, says MEOW and the whole block goes up. I don't care what anyone says....that is classic. I'd get it on Blu for that scene alone.
post #2258 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:09pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Christou
Well I like Uma Thurman a lot more than I do Katie Holmes for a start, though Uma was pretty dreadful in Batman.

And Clooney was a wicked Bruce Wayne, the best ever matter of fact! Lots to like about Batman & Robin!
post #2259 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:11pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
And Clooney was a wicked Bruce Wayne, the best ever matter of fact! Lots to like about Batman & Robin!

WRONG! Clooney was terrible all around, by far the worst Batman or Bruce Wayne from all the films. Bobbing your head does not make you a good Bruce Wayne (or Batman for that matter).
post #2260 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:11pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Steve,
what qualities does the Burton film have that appeal to you more than Begins?
What components of the film make you feel satiated as a viewer or a Batman fan.Not planning on being argumentative, just curious.
post #2261 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:14pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Not applicable. Comparing whether Godfather is better made than Pee-wee's Big Adventure is a straw man. The two films are in vastly different genres and designed to meet different objectives.

The two films being discussed are within the same genre and have the same main character. The argument of whether one is better than the other is specific. My contention was that if the viewer liked Batman and Robin better than Batman Begins then it stands to reason that the first one better met his criteria for an enjoyable Batman film: therefore, for him, it was a better made film than Batman Begins.

Also cutting random images with repetitious dialogue and cutting them together does not constitute a valid criticism of the film, since it takes those images out of context with the rest of the film. The clip is funny but essentially meaningless.

I don't get the idea of a "guilty pleasure". I either like the film or I don't. If I like the film then I don't feel guilty about liking it. Other people may hate it but ultimately that is no concern of mine. I sure wouldn't call someone a moron because his or her opinion of a movie doesn't coincide with mine.

I don't think that Batman and Robin is a better movie than Batman Begins, but if someone thinks otherwise then so what. All it means, is that their criteria for a good Batman flick differs from mine.
This is where the argument of taste vs. art/aesthetics/craftsmanship comes in. The "better to me despite what anyone else or any attempt at an objective evaluation" argument is one of taste; it is what it is, and ultimately people like what they like. The latter is the more scholarly, historical, "important" (at least in regards to film criticism) method. Often conversations of these types have impasses because one person is arguing under the standards of Criteria A and the other is arguing under the standards of Criteria B.

Under Criteria B, there is no dispute - across the board in all respects, Batman Begins is the superior work.

Under Criteria A - "whatever floats your boat" is the penultimate requirement.

Most people do both. I loved Hot Rod under Criteria A, but there's no way it's a great or honestly even a good film under Criteria B.
post #2262 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:18pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidPla
WRONG! Clooney was terrible all around, by far the worst Batman or Bruce Wayne from all the films. Bobbing your head does not make you a good Bruce Wayne (or Batman for that matter).

What do you mean? Keaton was a goofball, Kilmer was detached and Bale was just a snot pot. Clooney was perfect as the suave playboy who could get down to business.
post #2263 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:26pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
What do you mean? Keaton was a goofball, Kilmer was detached and Bale was just a snot pot. Clooney was perfect as the suave playboy who could get down to business.

Keaton's the only one who got laid.
post #2264 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:26pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidPla
Keaton's the only one who got laid.

??? in real life?
post #2265 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:28pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
??? in real life?

Yup! Think about it.
post #2266 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:28pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

i did, and that makes no sense.

I'm talking about an actor performing a character, not plot points.
post #2267 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:30pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
Steve,
what qualities does the Burton film have that appeal to you more than Begins?
What components of the film make you feel satiated as a viewer or a Batman fan.Not planning on being argumentative, just curious.

Paul, I'm really shocked that there are members on this thread and not just excited teenagers, who are genuinely taken aback that some people may prefer another Batman film to Batman Begins.

I'm a Tim Burton fan and his two Batman films are favorites I watch again and again. I like the atmosphere, the music, the weirdness. Keaton, I felt, was a lot more charismatic than Bale and Nicholson is the Joker for my generation, just like Ledger will be the Joker for this generation. And I'm sure there are people who adore Cesar Romero's Joker.
post #2268 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:32pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
i did, and that makes no sense.

I'm talking about an actor performing a character, not plot points.

I thought you were joking about the whole Clooney being the best Bruce Wayne thing. Alright for the real...

There was no depth to Clooney's Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is a superficial millionaire playboy.. on the surface. Bale certainly showed that. Keaton showed some of that. Kilmer was pretty much brooding. And Clooney.. played this superficial millionaire that enjoyed dressing up as Batman.. and that's it. His Bruce Wayne and Batman are exactly the same. There's no duality which is what Batman is all about. Bale, Keaton and even to a lesser extent Kilmer got that there is more going on behind the eyes of Bruce Wayne. There's none of that with Clooney.
post #2269 of 2280
7/16/08 at 3:48pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Christou
Paul, I'm really shocked that there are members on this thread and not just excited teenagers, who are genuinely taken aback that some people may prefer another Batman film to Batman Begins.

I'm a Tim Burton fan and his two Batman films are favorites I watch again and again. I like the atmosphere, the music, the weirdness. Keaton, I felt, was a lot more charismatic than Bale and Nicholson is the Joker for my generation, just like Ledger will be the Joker for this generation. And I'm sure there are people who adore Cesar Romero's Joker.

I'm still firmly of the belief that "Batman Returns" is the best film of them all so far. 'Begins is close but has problems that I can't ignore. I really wish Burton had kept with the old series, we would have gotten some really great stuff.

That said, I expect "The Dark Knight" to blow every other attempt out of the water.
post #2270 of 2280
7/16/08 at 4:00pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Christou
Paul, I'm really shocked that there are members on this thread and not just excited teenagers, who are genuinely taken aback that some people may prefer another Batman film to Batman Begins.
I said I wouldn't be argumentative, and I won't be. I'll simply say that I walked out of that midnight screening 21 years ago feeling very flat and undernourished. I chalked it up to being way too invested in it beforehand, and there is no way it could have paid that off...but that wasn't it. Later viewings confirmed that the treatment of the material never engaged me on any kind of emotional level. That's why I'm always curious about why and what exactly about it clicks for other people.
I'll save everything else for the post viewing discussion.
post #2271 of 2280
7/16/08 at 4:09pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

I still have a strong affection for the two Burton films as well. In fact, I was more excited about revisiting them on DVD this week than I was Batman Begins on Blu. To be fair though, I've watched Begins at least four time over the past year, and I hadn't watched Batman or Returns since Christmas '05. I still prefer Burton's fantastical, gothic style though Nolan has the mythology and characters down pat for me and, in the end, that's what matters most.

Just thirty more hours!
post #2272 of 2280
7/16/08 at 4:32pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Christou
Paul, I'm really shocked that there are members on this thread and not just excited teenagers, who are genuinely taken aback that some people may prefer another Batman film to Batman Begins.

This has nothing to do with the other films in the series. It's just about Batman & Robin.

I loved the 89 film, use to love Returns but is something I can't sit through anymore only because of how often I've seen it. Same goes with Forever, a film that I do like, and don't lump in with Batman & Robin.
post #2273 of 2280
7/16/08 at 5:41pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

I prefer burton's batman films.. I think the flashback worked better in the 89 movie then the 2005 film. I also like the car better. the music score is much better too.. and I also like keaton better as batman.i really didn't like the scarcrow in the begins movie.. he seems too young like he just got out of high school. and the actor is also very creepy looking. the pacing in begins was a bit off in the beginning and got better once he return to gotham city.
burton was the first one to get the right tone for batman. I will probably like jack as the joker more then heath.. more of a generation thing.

Jacob
post #2274 of 2280
7/16/08 at 6:07pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

So which generation is that?
How old were you guys when you bonded with the first Batman?I was 22 and worried I was getting too old to be so obsessed over stuff like this.
At 41, I just don't give a shit what anybody thinks anymore.
post #2275 of 2280
7/16/08 at 6:10pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
At 41, I just don't give a shit what anybody thinks anymore.

Wait till 50 hits - it gets worse
post #2276 of 2280
7/16/08 at 6:34pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
So which generation is that?
How old were you guys when you bonded with the first Batman?I was 22 and worried I was getting too old to be so obsessed over stuff like this.
At 41, I just don't give a shit what anybody thinks anymore.


I was 7 years old and knew nothing about Batman when it came out, so it was all new to me with that film. So in my case, while I do enjoy that film to this day, I prefer Nolan's films.
post #2277 of 2280
7/16/08 at 7:52pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

I have to admit I sort of like Bad Boys 2. No its not a good movie by any means. But I enjoyed the bickering and chemistry between Lawrence and Smith. I never saw the first film.



Is it friday yet????? Im dying over here.
post #2278 of 2280
7/16/08 at 8:03pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonZ
I have to admit I sort of like Bad Boys 2. No its not a good movie by any means. But I enjoyed the bickering and chemistry between Lawrence and Smith. I never saw the first film.

If you sort of like the sequel, you really like the first. It's nowhere near as mean, the chemistry is much better (because of the unique situation the two find themselves in) and features better and funny secondary characters. It's also about 30 minutes shorter and is a lot more fun because it isn't so mean.

I know of a History Channel special called "Batman Unmasked: The Psychology of the Dark Knight" premiering tonight, but since we get the History channel commercials (on CNN and A&E) explicitly stating "not available in Canada"...well I'm hoping it'll show up online somewhere.
post #2279 of 2280
7/16/08 at 8:21pm

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

wow the novel version of Batman.

that was a very good book.
post #2280 of 2280
7/17/08 at 2:25am
Thread Starter 

Re: Batman Begins' sequel: The Dark Knight (Merged)

Could midnight premieres owe their existence to the 'Star Wars' franchise?

obviously someone with way too much time on their hands.
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