New editions of 4 Muppet movies coming soon! Widescreen confirmed. - Page 6

Well, that wouldn't be an issue, anyway. They'd use the lesser print for the song, the better print for everything else.

While I agree that it's better than nothing, I'm still not gonna buy it.

Chris

In all cases, the widescreen version of the film should be definitive. IMO, that means it should include the extra scenes.

Lots of opinions on this one. I certainly respect them all.


That's what went through my mind as well.

Naturally, the first choice would have been a 16x9 OAR version that included the song, but like I said, I'll stick to my glass-half-full opionion on this one and do my best to enjoy this edition.

Why isn't the sky falling for me? Well...because Standard-Def DVD isn't the holy grail anyway. I view all standard-def DVDs as "hold overs" for Hi-def. When Muppet Christmas Carol hits Blu-ray (and it will), my expectations will change. Of course by then, I hope we won't be worrying about using up disc-space for a 4x3 formatted version...

Now, if you feel otherwise and would like to make your opinion known to Disney, you have means and I encourage you to provide them with polite, but honest input. I too see the irony that the P/S "kids version" is the one that that gets the song that was cut...for kids...


Yes, that would have been a full glass.


Yes, I am a widescreen advocate. PLEEEAAASE. Let's not get silly with accusations here...

I almost single-handedly started the OAR phone campaign for this title when the last P/S-only debacle took place...and even got folks at Henson Studios to leverage their opinions with Disney. The fact that you've got an OAR option at all on these (4) discs is resultant of that legacy. But don't thank me...

Well, this provides an interesting option. However, I'm such a big fan of the music in the film, I'll probably just stick with my P&S DVD that I have already. Thanks Disney for getting it out to us in OAR, but I guess I'll wait!

I think that's it exactly. Think about it-how many people here complain when a film isn't represented exactly as it was shown in the theater on a daily basis? If they'd released only the "extended" cut, instead everyone would be complaining about the original theatrical version not being available.

Isn't seamless branching supposed to be the feature that solves this problem for us?

Chris, thanks for echoing that. That's where my thoughts take me as well.

Seamless branching is expensive to author...and it probably also needs to make more creative use of the dual-layer real estate. Since the budget for these title is more limited than the "top tier" stuff like Lion King, and since they're basically dedicating each layer to a different version of the movie (P/S and WS...making each version of the movie act like a "single layer" encoding if you will) maybe that's why branching wasn't used.

Yes...branching would have been the perfect "win win" as it was with Pocahontas. But given the paramaters the studio may have been working within, it seems to my eyes that they still tried to "do right" by this title in a variety of other ways...certainly more right than the last DVD. I'll try to keep an open mind on this one and stick with my glass-half-full attitude and I look forward to the *perfect* version of this film on hi-def. And of course if an R2 version surfaces in 16x9 oar with the extra song...I'll be enjoying that in the meantime as well...

Well that settles it. I won't be buying it.

If they're doing it for fear of public outcry over not having "the theatrical version." That's dumb. I don't think most of us feel that way about films that were cut against the director's wishes for theatrical release, and when the cut version is not an entirely different entity than the true cut. This is what happened to Muppets Christmas Carol. Brian Henson did not want the song cut, so it should not be cut. And this is not Blade Runner or Star Wars where the theatrical version should be preserved because there was heavy reediting and it results in quite a different movie. They are the same except for the missing song, which needs to be restored. I think we are more concerned about with preserving the director's intentions than we are with preserving the "theatrical version." At least I know I am.

Does anyone know how I can get in contact with Disney to let them know about my displeasure?

Vincent,

on the back of every Disney DVD you own is a little toll-free number for customer feedback. If you call, be polite, be clear, and be respectful. It also wouldn't hurt if you mention your "family" and any children that you may have...Disney is in the business of making families happy, so if you're a family man they should know that. I wouldn't brag about your HT knowledge or your involvement on the forum (that will just make you sound like a member of an enthusiast crowd which isn't their intended market for this title)...just stick to the point about you, your family, and the DVD.

Forgive my lack of knowledge about PAL and and transferring process, but is it possible that they are just using the widescreen transfer from the region 2 disc (which lacks the song) and the pan & scan transfer from the old R1 disc, and that this whole "restored" business is just a marketing gimmick and the real problem is that they just didn't want to pay for a new transfer?

I thought these were all new tranfers though. Maybe the version with the song only exists in video form since it was cut out of the theatrical release. Or Disney was lazy and the song does exist on a IP somewhere but they didn't go looking for it.

The laserdisc transfer is the same transfer as one the two non-anamorphic Muppet Christmas Carols available globally--one in Japan, one in South America.

It's a great print--except that the song is DELIBERATELY cut from these two DVD releases. The transfer moves, ever so slightly, up and down over the course of the film. I compared my R1 Brazil DVD to the laserdisc and it's the same thing....

Disney really is just out to do this film disservice, any chance they get.

No offense but why would that be the case? I kinda doubt someone is sitting there at Disney plotting against a Muppet movie. They're screwing it up (maybe out of laziness) but I don't think it's intentional.

Travis is correct.

I think that Disney has several "layers" of bureaucracy and different "tiers" of titles get worked through different layers. For instance...titles like Cinderella probably go to one group of folks to "market" for DVD and "B" titles (good but not considered their top classics) go to another group...and so on. Also...various groups make unrelated decisions about different aspects of the DVD...one group is responsible for things like whether $$ is approved for a new film-tape transfer, another supervises the process of mastering...and yet another probably is responsible for what bonus material is assembled.

In the business of selling DVDs...it's not a conspiracy so much as it is probably miscommunication and lack of knowlege about what things to pay attention to. For instance...the guy who's in charge of doing the transfer may or may not even *know* that there's a song that's been cut or if there is another print available with the song. These sort of disconnects/complexity are not unique to Disney...all studios and corporations have them and it's one reason why things don't always work out just the way fans would like.

But the "big picture" here is that it looks to my eyes like Disney is at least trying...or trying harder to "do right" by these titles than they did with the P/S only releases.

If the WS version is 16x9, I think that would have necessitated a new film-tape transfer...though it's possible that their only available WS print had the song cut. Who knows...if any one who knows more wants to share any info I'm all ears.

In any case, Disney is most certainly NOT "trying" to screw up these movies. They learned some obvious lessons from the last DVD release and they'll learn some more from this one. I'm going to give them credit where credit is due and I'll give a very honest and forth-coming review of all of these titles when I finally get the screeners to review.

-dave

Dave--
no offense to you, sir, but I do not believe I will ever see an unkind word from you about Disney. You're an infomerical.

Travis--
Maybe "just out" is a little too much and I didn't intend it to suggest an anti-Christmas Carol conspiracy. However, this is a title that's been messed up in every release (with possible exception of the pan and scan VHS) it's ever had. The theater, they cut it w/o Henson's approval; the laserdisc, the picture moves up and down through the black (unnoticable unless you're going through looking for it); the DVD, pan and scan; the new DVD--pan and scan gets exactly what it got before and the widescreen release we're all supposed to be grateful for is cut. If there isn't a conspiracy, there's gross incompetence. And Disney makes a whole lot of money to be so incompetent.

And you would be incorrect. I don't think anyone around here has been louder than David when Disney has seriously screwed the pooch on a DVD release. I'm thinking of one title (whose name eludes me at the moment) in the last couple years where Dave led a very vocal capaign against a Disney movie being release P&S only.

Just because he's less critical of Disney than you on this particular issue does not make him a Disney flack.

Have you read the dozens of reviews where I've heavily criticized Disney for crappy transfers, dropped extras, and P/S only discs? I used the "s" word for the transfer of Cold Mountain on DVD and actually had studio people contact me in response. There have been quite a few DVDs where I've held nothing back in expressing my dissapointment with Disney...try reading my review of the new 5.1 DEHT mix for Mary Poppins where I call into question the basic competency of the audio-techs. While you're at it, why not read my comments in that same review where I lay into them about the unnecessary cropping in the 1.66:1 framing of the same title. Want to see me get pissed at them in the digital-mess they made with the English Patient's image that's riddled with edge-halos and noise? Hmmm...I don't recall giving them kudos for the over-filtered, VHS-quality image on Kill Bill vol 1 either. Don't think I tried to paint the studio in a very good light on that one.

Your "informercial" statement is not only un-called for, but it's entirely unsubstantiated.

If my attempt to be "balanced" on this matter of Muppet Christmas Carol falls too far to one side or the other of your own personal opinion for us to be in agreement on the subject, then we happen to disagree. That's fine. That's what respectfully sharing our opinion on this forum is about. But your "informercial" nonsense has no place on this forum given the many times I've risked putting my position of reviewing titles for this company on the line by my uncompromising honesty.



That's your opinion and it's a good one. I agree that this title deserves better, though I still view this new DVD as "better" than what's come before. I hope that when it hits Blu-ray that both it, and its fans, get everything they deserve.




Paul,

that was A Muppet Christmas Carol and Muppet Treasure Island.

No wonder it eluded me! I was thinking it had to be a different movie than the one we were already talking about... :b

You just said in another post the Blu-ray edition would be complete... no hoping.

My problem with that mentality is that I'm a full-time student and I can't afford a $1000 Blu-Ray player and the $3000 HDTV to go with it. Maybe I'm just too poor for HTF....

Not too poor for HTF...I can't afford a $1000 HD disc player either... (hoping that the PS3 is affordable enough).

About this current DVD situation:

Some folks will be so bothered by the omission of the song on the WS version that they will consider this a "no buy". They should call/contact Disney and explain why they and their families are not purchasing.

Others will wish that the WS version was the full-length film with the song, but will purchase anyway. They should *also* call Disney and explain how they and their families feel about the missing song.

Only those who don't care at all should sit by the sidelines and do nothing.

The last phone-campaign about OAR 16x9 WS made a difference folks. Have we lost focus of that wonderful news so quickly? I'm not saying that anyone should jump for joy about the missing song on the OAR version on the DVD...but I AM going to remind everyone that the same studio that ignored Brian Henson's personal request to go widescreen on the last R1 DVDs of T.I. and C.C. has reversed their position and is offering 16x9 WS OAR on these new versions because YOU, the CONSUMER, told them what you wanted.

For that I thank Disney, and consumers who politely expressed their opinion to Disney's consumer hotline. It doesn't mean there still aren't issues that can't be improved with these new releases, but I'm trying to keep our successes in perspective.

Note: doing that does not preclude anyone from THANKING Disney for what they HAVE done (WS 16x9 OAR) while at the same time letting them know, politely, what they wish they WOULD do (include the song in the WS version). I'm sure that petitioning would be even more effective when a consumer expresses recognition for what the studio does right, while at the same time asking it to change what he or she feels it is doing wrong.

According to the e-mail I got from Disney, there was always a 16x9 option, it was just omitted from the initial rumblings--except DavisDVD or someplace, who had it first, and said it was WS....

I've e-mailed Disney twice since hearing about the song and, as opposed to the 1-day (at most) response I got from them last time, I have gotten no response to either e-mail.

I do not believe they care or would remedy this situation no matter what the stink, with the possible exception of Brian Henson taking his name off the Theatrical Version. And even then, I doubt it would get a footnote in the Entertainment Weekly review.

Andrew,

The handful of calls folks may have made to Disney over the last week about the initially-incorrect press release was not a "campaign". I'm talking about the phone campaign over a year ago when Disney first released Muppet Treasure Island and Muppet Christmas Carol on DVD in P/S only. We started a phone-calling campaign here at HTF that almost shut down the lines at Disney Customer service...they were so overwhelmed with calls (they actually turned off the phones at one point because they couldn't handle the volume) that they created a special email address to receive consumer feedback in order to try to handle the influx of consumer input. Never before had their call desk received so much feedback about in such a short time or about any particular DVD. We also got folks calling/writing Henson Studios and this prompted Brian Henson to make a personal phone call to Disney requesting that they go WS OAR (they released those P/S DVDs anyway). Those calls we made THEN (over a year ago) were the reason that the DVDs are being released WS NOW.

Make more sense now?

Mais no....

Not to be a stickler, but Muppet Christmas Carol came out P/S in '02 and Treasure Island came out P/S in '03 (the same time it came out WS in the UK).

Both of these titles were announced as P/S only and the phone campaign was a result. The campaign started before the discs were released and it was hoped that Disney would change course and go 16x9 OAR, which, sadly, they did not do.

Ok...I've tried to be polite, respectful, and helpful. I've provided you with in-depth and accurate information about the issues surrounding these titles...issues which myself and many other HTF members were directly involved with. Let's not aruge about semantics or choice of words: the message is clear.


My thread starting the phone campain (Apr 10, 2002)
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=62816

another thread:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=65730

and another:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=66260

Visitors to this thread who don't remember (or weren't at HTF then) this campaign...be sure to check out these links...I think you'll find them very interesting.

I'm not. I was going to argue about this one: "Both of these titles were announced as P/S only in tandem and the phone campaign was a result."

But it seems to have disappeared.

...

I mean, whatever: Disney is not doing a good enough job here. A reasonable analogy is Warner announcing, well, we couldn't find a restored print of Kong, so here's the version that everybody got through PD until the first Turner release....

That's not good enough. I'm sorry, I don't have time to pity a huge corporation or the people behind it. All I know is, after butchering a film well-enough by pan and scanning it, they're further butchering it by not including an incredibly important scene in the emotional development of Scrooge.

It's a complete disrespect to art and I have no reason to respect that at all.

Yes, I didn't want to have to deal with the particulars of whether "in tandem" meant in the same press release or within a few days of each other. I can see my decision to remove that benign phrase was a wise one as it may have clouded communication yet again. Tragedy averted.


In any case, I hope that other readers aren't having as difficult a time understanding just how hard I and other HTF members worked to help the Disney marketing department to expand their target audience to encompass the home-theater enthusiast as well as the casual kid-aged viewer. When you see "uses the highest bit-rate yet of any PIXAR DVD to date" on the back of the new Toy Story DVD you know we've had an effect.

Now Andrew, I've got a great idea. Why don't *you* start your own campaign thread to rally HTF members to contact Disney to share their displeasure with the "butchered" release of the forthcoming Muppets Christmas Carol? You can even copy/paste the contact information out of my old thread. At its best, it might convince the studio to release the full-length version in 16x9 OAR on the upcoming DVD. At its worst, it will probably help ensure that the *next* release of this title meets your expectations. If you put half as much energy into contacting Disney--and encouraging other HTF members to do the same--as you've put into arguing with fellow members who've worked hard doing exactly that, we're bound to have some success.

i haven't been arguing with anyone. This whole conversation between you and I started because I said everything you said was pro-Disney.

As for my expectations....

An uncut, widescreen version isn't so much to ask, is it?

It's the treatment 99.9% of films get.

I hope that you and every reader who shares your opinion takes the time to contact Disney and let them know how you feel. That's the most practical way your opinion can make a difference.

who has a phone number for Disney that we can use to complain? I would call and let my opinion be known.