*** Official BATMAN BEGINS Discussion Thread - Page 23

Holadem, Elfman's score for Batman was outstanding. And I still listen to the album today. It is the one thing that Batman is that is better (by a mile) then Batman Begins, with the exception of Molossus from BB. Which seems to capture the feel of Bats.

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This talking of Superman and comparing it to Batman reminded me of a scene I really hadn't thought about before. I was watching BB the other night on tv. And just happen to catch the scene where Bruce goes to speak to the Falcone in the restaurant. And he just gets berated by Falcone. Saying that just because your parents died doesn't mean you know about criminals. And at the time of the movie I was too enthralled in the big things to think about little scenes like that. Scenes that may seem insignificant. Just shows you how much it influences Bruce's decisions and finally guides him in his path to become Batman.

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I love this scene, and to me, it's indicative of why it's such a great movie. Two very good actors, emotional investment by the audience, and solid writing and directing. You could watch that scene without knowing anything else about the story and characters and be hooked.

Having just seen Superman Returns, the triumph of Batman Begins is all the more apparent to me.

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"You've never tasted desperate"

Yup, that was one of the best scenes in the movie. Wilkinson was a nice choice for the role.

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Totally agree.

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Wow. I just sat down and rewatched this movie yesterday. I saw Superman Returns twice in the past week, and all I have to say it, Batman Begins is a MUCH better movie.

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For the past few months, I've had the desire to watch Batman Begins, but I never really found enough time to devote the time to it. Anyway, I watched the movie last week and it's still terrific. I think one reason that Batman Begins has Superman Returns beat is that I just love watching everything unfold in Batman Begins. I even love the stylistic choices like the way the flashbacks are integrated into the first part of the film. It's a great movie and a joy to watch.

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No one seems to be put off by the crappy in-close fight sequences anymore...

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With the exception of the last two fights I always liked the stylistic choice of close in-fighting. When Batman is fighting his equals I would have liked to had the camera pulled back a bit.

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1. They work better on a TV screen than on the movie screen.

2. I've watched it enough that I can now follow the fights....sort of.

3. I'm used to the way they're filmed now.


I still think the fights would have been better shown from farther away, with perhaps one or two exceptions. The scene at the dock is nearly perfect as is, and I like the way the Batman is shown almost as a horror show monster, hiding in shadows, silent as he stalks and takes out his prey.

I'm hoping that Nolan will gives us at least a bit more clarity when viewing the fights in the next film, if for no other reason except to really show off the remarkable fighting style used in the film.

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As much as I love Batman Begins (and agree that it's superior to Superman Returns), I still can't stand the incoherent shaky cam fight scenes. That and the bulky "Tank-moblie." I guess I'm still used to the sleeker versions of previous Batmobiles.

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I agree with Lou. The shaky cam works against multiple thugs...not against near equals. Maybe they'll fix that in a sequel.

I do love the new Batmobile myself. It makes a lot more sense than Burton's (admittedly awesome looking) penismobile.

BB is a great film for the reasons Michael illustrated earlier. Its story is compelling, and the acting is always interesting. A year later, and I still respect and love the heck out of it.

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Todd,

Nice call in bringing back this thread. Perfect timing now that Superman Returns is out.

It just so happens that I am coming off an initial viewing of Superman Returns on opening weekend, followed by a private viewing of Batman Begins in the newly re-vamped Home Theatre, and then a second viewing of Superman Returns.

Personally, I hate to see the "this movie beats that one" with these two films. I LOVED both movie's. Each for different reasons, but both incredible in their own rights.

Instead of saying which I liked better (and I seriously couldn't tell you), I would like to bask in the glory that both franchises have a GREAT START! I mean lets all think for a second on how truly epic both of these characters are. I can't imagine the pressure that Nolan and Singer took on in resurrecting these "larger than life" figures. I believe both of them rose to the challenge, and now I have this sense of peace rolled up in excitement for the next journey in both characters future adventures. I would also throw Raimi in this discussion, for his great work with the Spider-Man series.

I'm just so glad that all of these directors have nailed down a solid foundation for these characters to grow in. They should produce some great, great, movie going experiences for us all to enjoy for several years to come. Not to mention all of the lead roles are young guys, that can mature with the series.

Bravo to these men & their teams for their vision. I tip my hat to them all.

JC

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Batman Begins is much more of a classic, epic superhero movie. Superman Returns has this awkward tension between superhero epic and character drama starring a superhero. It's sort of jarring as it goes from really epic to really intimate. By contrast, Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne is driven by an archetypical loss, over global treks through a personal journey of physical hardships. The relationships with Alfred and Rachel are brilliant, but hardly the centerpiece. Superman Returns instead delights in its own messiness. They fufill very different urges. I think Batman Begins is a better overall package, but it's as apples and oranges as two non-parody superhero movies can get.

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I've not watched BB since the theater, but I can attest to this phenomenon with Gladiator, a movie I hated initially for similar reasons (among others). I watched the thing twice in the theater and couldn't see squat. Meanwhile, everyone around me was having a blast. Very frustrating. Only when I got to finally see and understand the action at home did the movie improve (still no Best Picture material though).

All that to say, Michael is probably right .

--
H

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I totally agree with the apples and oranges comment. Two completely different movies, yet I loved them both. Too many times we get caught up trying to figure out which movie beats another one, when if fact this isn't a competition. Its simply a large group of people combining their talents to make something they are happy with, and hope other people will enjoy. If you look at it from the directors perspective's, instead of competing with one another, they are all pulling for each others movie's. It makes sense that if one succeeds, it can only help to strengthen the demand for other films in that genre. It's for this reason Superhero movies are so danged popular.

I see a lot of people on this forum complaining that we have too many superheroe movies, however the same people are going to see every one that comes out. They are popular because they appeal to all of us. In some way we all want to be the guy or girl that saves the day. All of these characters go through their share of inner turmoil, which only strengthens the desire to be like......(fill in the blank with the superheroe)

I for one hope they continue to perform well, and that the sequels can live up to our growing expectations. Most of the biggest box office hits from past years play off of this "superhero theme". Maybe not actual comic book characters, but I would say Star Wars, Pirates, etc... all have the good vs. evil theme at the forefront of their story lines. It is a theme that will never grow old.

JC

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In some ways, you're right. Singer and Nolan had different goals and very different stories to tell. While both are comic-based and are centered on costumed heroes, the tone and nature of the characters is fairly different.

However, from a storytelling, filmmaking and production elements point of view, I'd argue that BB is overall the "better" film. It's more focused, and has a clearer character development arc for the main character, among other things. I think the acting is better, generally speaking, in BB.

What's interesting to me is that they both have a similar weak spot in terms of acting and plotting: the female lead. Both Bosworth and Holmes have limited talent, to put it diplomatically, and I don't think either was written all that well.

For me, the ultimate test was that I was engaged and interested during all of Batman Begins but was only interested and engaged when Superman was onscreen and doing super things. Considering that Batman doesn't appear onscreen as Batman for a good 40 minutes, that's saying something. Of course, that's a purely subjective experience, and YMMV.

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I was talking to a friend last week about the Superman movie and the talk turned to Batman Begins. I was going on about it and he finally spoke up and informed me he had not seen it. He had no desire to see it after seeing Batman & Robin (the Clooney one). I told him it was nothing like the first 4 or the tv series. The next day I forced my dvd on him and over the long weekend he watched it. Not only was he glad he watched it, he returned my copy and informed me he had bought one for himself.

Not to derail the thread here but...

Can someone explain where the items in the Batcave came from? (The dinosaur, large coin, etc.)

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I can't tell you specifically where they came from, but they are from various criminal plots Batman foiled.

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There's a blurb about the dinosaur, coin & other memorabilia at wikipedia, including their origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave

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The dreaded Penny Plunderer should DEFINATELY be the villain in the sequel.

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Rereading this thread (and itching for a rewatch, especially with Supes in theaters), I found this quote of mine after it underwhelmed opening weekend. In truth, the optimism many of us shared was well-placed...it did break $200M with strong summer legs, something rarely seen in blockbuster films. Whether or not Supes does the same (and it won't do BB good, but it should do OK), I think it's sequel chances are still pretty good. Both of the major DC launches took significant pages from Raimi's success with Spider-Man, and really made it work. Those are the three big characters, and all three got a movie (or two) worthy of their personal mythology and place in our culture. Frankly, it's 3 for 3 on the bigs, and as a comic fan, that's just incredible.

Batman Begins earned our goodwill (and there is a LOT of it in this thread), and I am pretty excited we are now TWO years away from the sequel. Hopefully it builds on the substantial groundwork laid in BB.

Now we are three,
Chuck

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Hey could someone tell me how to do multiple quotes, not just multiple quotes from one person, but also quotes from other people. Thank you.

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For each post that needs quoting, click on the "MQ Off" button in each post to turn it to "MQ On" and the just click on the "Quote" button, and that will dump in all the text from the multiple posts into the reply window.

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Thanks Patrick.

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I gotta stop listening to track 10 (Molossus) while driving home from work or I'm going to wind up with a speeding ticket. That track really gets me fired up behind the wheel of my Nissan Altima.

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Heh. Molossus is a muscular, driving track. But I disagree that the BB score is inferior to Elfman's scores. It's different, but that's the whole point. Elfman's score is iconic and very well-known, as well as being closely associated with the Burton version of the Batman character. Zimmer and Newton wisely decided not to ape or attempt to "top" Elfman's efforts, but made sure the music really served the story and matched its tone. It's not a wholly conventional or traditional score, but it's one that has had repeat spins on my CD players since last year.

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after recently re-watching BB, i'd have to say this is a great film from start to finish. the only problem i have (apart form the already-mentioned fight sequences) is i don't seem to get the intelligence part of Bale's portrayal. not that he plays Wayne as an idiot, but he's supposed to be one of the smartest guys in the world - an ultimate strategist. maybe it's a script thing. Bale gets the conviction and the inner-turmoil down perfectly though.

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Even if you're the smartest guy around, experience is something you have to go through to truly know what's going on. His inexperience was dealt with effectively in the middle section of the film.

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Plus, even though Morgan Freeman's character is behind much of the science and gadgets, Wayne still had to conceptualize and bring Batman into existence. That's quite an achievement, and makes him no intellectual slouch.