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*** Official BATMAN BEGINS Discussion Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 712
6/17/05 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Nice! I've heard so many people talking about going tonight, most of them women. (Ladies Love Christian Bale)


As my girlfriend and I left the movie, her first words: "Christian Bale is HOT!" (Two can play that game: I made sure to offer comments about what a nice rack Katie Holmes sports...)
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post #182 of 712
6/17/05 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Does anyone have an issue with Ra's fate on the train? Some are saying that Batman effectively rescinded his previous position about not being a vigilante. He left Ra on the train with the controls locked and the track destroyed. By not saving him, he effectively did kill him.

Why do people have a problem with Batman leaving Ra's to die, and not with the miles-long trail of severely wounded (or dead) cops that must have been the fallout from the car chase? Batman actively caused some of the police car crashes, but you didn't see the Batmobile stopping to help.

Also, it is a mistake to presume that Ra's is dead. Given the way that well-known comics characters other than Uncle Ben have of cheating death or coming back from the dead, I am sure that Ra's will be alive and well the first time that they find it convenient to put him in a picture again.
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post #183 of 712
6/17/05 at 6:36pm
Also, Bats had little time to save himself, plus, Ra's also torched the Wayne Manor. Payback's a bitch.
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post #184 of 712
6/17/05 at 6:36pm
i'll try to make this my last word on the costume -for at least a couple days

i would have loved to have seen a radical redesign of the cowl- more attuned to the first appearence of the character in Detective 27, rather than his modern comic book/movie look.



the problem i have with the cowl as it is now, is that it has too many flowing curves going on. curves are feminine, comforting (think soft billowing sheets). sharp angles are more masculine, more intimidating (think jagged pieces of broken glass).
the head piece could have been a bit more feral or demonic looking based on his stated symbolic needs.
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post #185 of 712
6/17/05 at 6:39pm
You do realize this is "Bruce Wayne's" first go at his cowl, give him time to find a better one in the next film.
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post #186 of 712
6/17/05 at 6:48pm
...just a suggestion.
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post #187 of 712
6/17/05 at 6:54pm
Batman knows policemen have their belts on when they are in a high pursuit. He gambled. He does the same thing in hand to hand. He could easily accidentally kill those he's fighting. But he doesn't. He knows what he is doing.

Quote:
By not saving him, he effectively did kill him.
The man who trained him? The man who left him to die? The immortal Ra's? I think Batman simply left him in dire straits. He's young. He's not fully morally formed yet. He's getting there.

And no way is Ra's dead.

Take care,
Chuck
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post #188 of 712
6/17/05 at 7:08pm
i wouldn't mind seeing Bruce in the sequels gradually evolve into the fascist that he is in things like Kingdom Come.
and having that aspect addressed and being a conflict.
to me thats a seeming inevitable end result of where he is now.

and with that kind of mindset, it would be very easy to see how he could cause all sorts of public damage and jeopardy if he has priorites that he is hell bent on maintaining and doing so because he knows he is the 'good guy'.

there's a lot of rich material here to explore in the future.
so many ways they can go
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post #189 of 712
6/17/05 at 7:33pm
Second viewing today. Some thoughts:

The tumbler chase is just amazing. I have an implanted defibillator, and it's a damn good thing, otherwise I might have had a heart attack during this scene. The most intense action sequence I've seen in a film in a long time.


Bale totally owns this role. He seems like a Neal Adams drawing come to life, despite the differences in the costume.

The sequence where Batman simply throws Crane aside and smashes his head against the wall after interrogating him. Priceless.


The two sequences with the blonde kid. They totally captured the "hero worship" angle that has been a part of Batman's persona almost since day one.

Michael Caine as Alfred. Best Supporting Oscar material.

When Batman escapes from the Gothamites that were drugged with Crane's fear gas. It looked like something out of a George Romero film(and I mean that in a good way).



I could go on and on. This is just an incredible movie, and I hope it does well enough to allow Nolan and company to return for a sequel.
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post #190 of 712
6/17/05 at 8:25pm
Remember Ras is thousands of years old. He rejuvinates himself in Lazarus Pits around the world. Thats if the movie is basing him on the comic version. He could have been thrown from the train and near death. Taken by one of his followers and taken to a pit to be rejuvinated.
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post #191 of 712
6/17/05 at 9:10pm
Just got back from a second viewing. I loved it more the second time.

One thought...

I don't think I've read anyone comment on the scene were the camera pans or kind of swoops in on Batman standing on top of the pillar on the building looking over the city. What an incredible shot. It gave me chills both times.
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post #192 of 712
6/17/05 at 9:19pm
yeah i think i know the shot you refer to Dennis.
that was a beauty.

i beleive he's actually on the Wayne building at that point
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post #193 of 712
6/17/05 at 9:38pm
^Was he? Man, that was an incredible shot.

I also really, really loved the music. Very dark, and the Batman theme doesnt kick in when the action heats up...very nice.

The new Batman Theme essentially consists of two chords. And it works wonders. Hans Zimmer said there was actually 2 1/2 hours of music in the film, and no songs. Ill definitely have to listen more next viewing.
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post #194 of 712
6/17/05 at 11:57pm
Just came back from a third viewing, and it gets better after each viewing. Some neat things I noticed after repeat viewings:

- Liam needs to speak up when fighting (that or turn down the FX and music). I couldn't understand that Ducard was naming all the martial arts moves Wayne was using against him.

- Great way to age the flower (before it was ground up) to indicate the passage of time!

- The League of Shadows initiation flew by (right over my head!) when I first saw it. It wasn't until the second viewing that I noticed the reason Wayne slashes two ninja on their arms was to throw off Ducard. Duh on me!

- Was that Cobblepot peering through his cell window when Batman escapes Arkham?

- Was the scene of Batman's first suit experience (when he asks Gordon about Falcone) a nice nod to Spidey's first suit experience in Spider-Man (the cage match)?

- When Crane and company enter the hotel room, I noticed that Batman quietly sneaks towards the right of the screen into darkness (before entering the bathroom).

- Speaking of the bathroom, Batman can be a cruel guy when he doesn't let a man finish pissing before slamming him upside the head against a mirror!

8^B
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post #195 of 712
6/18/05 at 12:45am
Here's the problem I had with the film.

Of course the action sequences that are there to tell us that our boy Chris has never done no fancy fight scenes. I'm sure he just wet himself not knowing what to do until one of the producers just told him "Hey, just make it choppy and shaky as hell. The film buffs call it gritty stylisticism or some crap like that".

Okay, more than one problem.

Everyone keeps buzzing about how the new Batman is so damn realistic. Everything is grounded in reality. It could all happen. My problem is, are you kidding me? Yeah, the vaporization of the water of the hallonigenic virus. Oh yeah, that's happened to me dozens of times. And Christian Bale. Oh, another Chris boy. I can only imagine:

NOLAN: So in this scene you're in the batsuit. Now you need to be menacing

BALE: Duh, duh. Menacing? How do I does that?

NOLAN: Just change your voice man. Make it all scratchy and gruff. That'll scare the hell out of everyone

BALE: Duh, duh. You're is the best director ever.

Okay, a couple of concerns.

The problem with creating a realistic Gotham and a realistic Batman is the fact that these things aren't inherently grounded in reality. It's supposed to be lights and magic and a big ol' show. To sell it deadpan almost makes it laughable. There were parts of the movie I bought for the way Nolan was selling it. It worked sometimes. Most others it didn't. To flip-flop from "realism" to "fantastic superhero genre razzle dazzle" totally took me out of it.

And the lines. "I gotta get me one of those" What, was that supposed to be funny? "You'll never have to thank me" "You're wearing the mask right now" Jesus Howard. Could we get Sorkin or Kushner to do a dialogue polish for "Batman Begins 2: Begin Harder"? Or even Koepp? I appreciate what the movie was trying desperately to accomplish. But it failed in most all aspects. Oh, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman were badasses. Yep, that's about it.
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post #196 of 712
6/18/05 at 2:24am
I thought the first half of the movie was fantastic.

The second half was a bit too silly and convulted.

I also think this Batman suffers from dual villain-itis ... stick to one villain per movie, it just focuses a movie better that way. If you include Falcone, that's really three villains in this film.

Still overall, despite the flaws, easily the best Batman since Burton's first one.

I agree that Nolan played it a bit *too* serious at times, while it was cool to see a superhero origin tale told grounded in reality and real-life logistics, it doesn't quite work as well when Bruce Wayne gets back to Gotham.

Big kudos though I thought for making Bruce Wayne's father a strong presence, even if he's barely in the movie. That's an element I'm not even sure the comic books explore all that well. You really feel that Bruce has more of a legacy to live up to and grow into here.

As for the 1989 Batman though, its hard to compare directly. That was really a defining moment in the 1980s, a massive pop culture event.
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post #197 of 712
6/18/05 at 3:50am
Quote:
he wants to be a shadowy symbol, not a familiar character. he wants to be a shadowy symbol, not a familiar character.
with the article there, the phrase becomes a vauge description of what he is (a bat-like man) rather than his call name.


But doesn't Crane say, "It's the Bat man"?

Quote:
Everyone keeps buzzing about how the new Batman is so damn realistic. Everything is grounded in reality. It could all happen. My problem is, are you kidding me? Yeah, the vaporization of the water of the hallucinogenic virus. Oh yeah, that's happened to me dozens of times.


But the fear gas and the vaporizer are items that could exist. Water can be vaporized, and hallucination drugs?? LSD? Acid anyone?

Those are far more reality based than say the Riddlers giant brain wave scanner from Forever.
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post #198 of 712
6/18/05 at 5:11am
Quote:
And Christian Bale. Oh, another Chris boy. I can only imagine:

NOLAN: So in this scene you're in the batsuit. Now you need to be menacing

BALE: Duh, duh. Menacing? How do I does that?

NOLAN: Just change your voice man. Make it all scratchy and gruff. That'll scare the hell out of everyone

BALE: Duh, duh. You're is the best director ever.
Your disrespect for Bale is appalling.
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post #199 of 712
6/18/05 at 7:13am
Bale is one of the most respected actors in the business. I'll leave that at that.

As for the fight scenes, they were specifically shot a certain way. We've discussed that at length. Far more than your two sentence brush off. I wonder which makes more sense?

Quote:
My problem is, are you kidding me?
Yes, we are all idiots, but thankfully, you've grasped that movies aren't real. The storyline is as fantastic as any...but the PRESENTATION (you know, what the director and screenwriter do) make it feel more realistic. It's tonal.

Take care,
Chuck
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post #200 of 712
6/18/05 at 9:09am
"You do realize this is "Bruce Wayne's" first go at his cowl, give him time to find a better one in the next film."

Yea I expect theyll alter the suit a bit for the next one.

"Was that Cobblepot peering through his cell window when Batman escapes Arkham?"

I remember seeing that guy but dont remember him looking like Penguin(Didnt he have a wild look on his face and reddish long wavy hair?). Ill look next time.

Unfortnately Im prob not gonna be able to see this again until the end of next week.
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post #201 of 712
6/18/05 at 9:17am
Wait, Chuck-the movie isn't real? And I just bought all that stock in Wayne Industries from a guy on eBay. The wife is going to kill me...
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post #202 of 712
6/18/05 at 9:34am
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post #203 of 712
6/18/05 at 10:40am
Quote:
The wife is going to kill me...
Nice knowing ya!

Irregardless, the rest of Chuck's post stands and it stands very well.
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post #204 of 712
6/18/05 at 11:24am
I was just thinking about who could play the Joker in a BB sequel. A lot of fansites seem to be pushing Crispin Glover, and I guess I could live with that. But does anyone else think that Hugo Weaving would be any good? I could see him playing an intense and maniacal Joker, but maybe I'm just nuts...
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post #205 of 712
6/18/05 at 11:34am
Is Rutger Hauer any good?


He was!
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post #206 of 712
6/18/05 at 11:37am
"Batman, get your damn hands off my goons"

Not a bad choice, Weaving would be interesting as well.

I think Adrien Brody from The Jacket and Piano would rock. He has some distinct features and can act.
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post #207 of 712
6/18/05 at 11:41am
Paul Giamatti for The Penguin!

And I must second the indignation over the childish disrespect some people are throwing Bale's way. He's a terrific actor and seems genuinely concerned about not only being good at acting, but selecting good stuff to act in (with a few exceptions, like that horrible Shaft remake). I thought he was absolutely PERFECT as Batman. In fact, go back and look at Keaton from the '89 version. I almost laughed out loud. He kinda has the look, but his physique is severly underwhelming.

Glover is good, but that type of casting would be too obvious. Look at Oldman. Never thought I would see him play a straight, non-pyscho character and then I see him in this and it is just perfect. I do have a hard time thinking of who would be good as The Joker though.
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post #208 of 712
6/18/05 at 11:53am
Alex,

You're now starting to answer your own questions?



Cees
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post #209 of 712
6/18/05 at 12:27pm
Quote:
I was just thinking about who could play the Joker in a BB sequel. A lot of fansites seem to be pushing Crispin Glover, and I guess I could live with that. But does anyone else think that Hugo Weaving would be any good? I could see him playing an intense and maniacal Joker, but maybe I'm just nuts...



Christian Bale would have been a good choice.... (hehe)


A lot of you might think this would equate to stunt casting, but I actually think christopher walken would be interesting.

I'll agree that paul giamatti would be a great Penguin, but he doesnt have quite the right look. thanks goodness for makeup, eh?
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post #210 of 712
6/18/05 at 12:29pm
Quote:
go back and look at Keaton from the '89 version


The more I think about it the more i realize that keaton was kind of a bizzarre choice. You right about his physique. I guess that's why he works as batman, but not as bruce wayne. WHen he's out of the suit, he doesnt look like the kind of a guy that could kick ass the way batman does.
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