*** Official STAR WARS Saga (episodes I to VI) Discussion Thread: Part 4 - Page 9

So Force Sensitive people don't come from the same family line? Any couple can have a FS child without being FS themselves?

I would assume so. My guess is that force sensitivity works the same way that magic does in Harry Potter. After all, Shmi had no apparent sensitivity, and she gave birth to Anakin. It seems that the midichlorians are what really determines a person's force sensitivity. That's not to say that there's no heredity in the matter. As we all know, the force is strong with the Skywalker family.

What if a Jedi Knight was a player and had a lot of one night stands with no attachement, would the Jedi Order accept that?

That'd be kind of cool.

According to the EU, Obi-Wan knew Anakin and Padme were together, but looked the other way. It appears to be implied in ROTS as well. ("he's the father, isn't he?")

This is why I think Anakin's love for Padme could have been used in a different way to drive a larger wedge into Anakin and the Jedi Council/way of life. As OB1 said, his allegiance is to the republic, to the Jedi order, not one person specifically, which is very unlike Siths, who are tied to their master-apprentice roles as a foundation for their Sith-ness, and the loyalty it implies for as long as that relationship is beneficial to both (otherwise one gets thrown to the wolves for the next big thing).

You didn't really need this massive boulder of Anakin's psychological fears of losing his loved ones to death to be the crux of his blindspot, his weakness that is exploited by Sidious.

Since the whole attachment thing is typically dealt with by picking younglings when they are very very young, Anakin's introduction into the ways of the Jedi's at the old age of 9, along with his familial love built up for his mom, pretty much gave him 2 strikes right off the bat. Loving Padme was more than enough to for Anakin to renounce the Jedi's once the secret of their union were to be uncovered by the Jedi Council (and if OB1 was the one to spill the beans, forcing Anakin to choose Padme or the Jedi's, that right there would be enough for Sidious to welcome him into the Sith-fold, and to promote the Anakin-OB1 duel to the death on Mustafar later), and they'd be forced to renounce him if he could not let Padme go (inline with Yoda admonition to train yourself to let go of things, or to put it in "Fight Club" venacular: Things you own, end up owning you).

This could also be a jumping off point to show that the Jedi way wasn't as great as it was cracked up to be in the long run. Can men and women only fight for simply noble ideals with little in terms of tangible relationships? That Anakin, given his circumstances, chose love over "order and stability" (but only after a 2 decade dalliance with the devil). Is there a lesson there?

But I'm rambling, so I'll stop here for now.

But the attachment and the fear of losing loved ones works, and it works real well because not only does it serve to explain why Anakin falls to the darkside, it also plays in to why he returns to the lightside in Return of the Jedi...he just couldn't handle losing someone else close to him...it was the final time this was going to happen in his mind...and that's true in ROTS and ROTJ.

Here's the thing that sort of annoys me about Anakin and his "I can't bear to let someone close to me DIEEEEEE!" mentality:

How many sentient beings did he kill who might have had loved ones of their own who experienced the same things he feared (losing loved one when he killed them)?

It's like Anakin just wants his own cadre of loved ones to live forever (however unlikely that prospect is), while never considering how his actions impact other sentient life and the impact of their deaths that he caused on their loved ones.

His psychology and outlook on this topic of sustaining the lives of his loved ones is just warped. Death and Taxes, the only thing you can really rely on happening in your lifetime. I don't think anyone wants to lose a loved one, but it happens, it's the cycle of life (and death). That he has it in his head that he's going to live forever, and somehow seeks to make it so that none of his loved ones will die is just childish and unrealistic. Did he not pay attention during his Jedi training days at the academy to philosophy or life studies? It just seems overly bloated, and too simplistic of a world view to assign to a young Jedi with all those midichlorians running through his veins.

Yes, a more or less childish weakness. But there was a big plan... perhaps they made sure during his Jedi training that he stayed that way - or they even secretly enhanced or promoted it.


Cees

not for me.
i think Anakin is one of the poorest drawn characters in a multi series story that i can recall.

his 'neediness' is only trotted out when its convienet to the screenwriters immediate purpose.
this guys goes into battle almost daily with someone he is, i would assume, very close to and loves- how is someone so needy, that he destroys his entire value system, able to function in that circumstance?

wouldn't he be consumed with fear over losing his brother-in-arms as well?
fans will probably make the allowance for that by saying "well, he wants to be a master and not a just an apprentice so he resents Obi Wan more than loves him" to which i would respond- being independant and responsible, and craving that is a little at odds with the concept of being so needy that it consumes you the way it does this character.

If you're referring to the scene in ROTS novel where Obi-Wan tells Padme he knows about them but has looked the other way I don't think thats EU. Pretty sure it was shot from the movie and cut. There is still a scene in the movie that references the deleted scene-

Anakin: "Was Obi-Wan here?"

Padme: "Oh, he came by this morning."

It was probably my favorite scene in the book and I hope that its restored.

Remember when Palpy told Anakin to leave OBW behind and Anakin replied "His fate will be the same as ours." He obviously does have love/fear for OBW. It's shown in the film.

But that reasoning doesn't have him going over to Sidious and against the Jedi Order.

If all Anakin was concerned about was being a husband and father then he could have left the Order. Its not common but its not prohibited either.

I agree but I think its completely in character for Anakin. He's very egotistical which isn't surprising when everyone tells him that he's "The Chosen One" and how strong in the force he is. I would expect Obi-Wan to show some reverance and respect for a fallen enemy but not Anakin.

You could weave the narrative to still have Palpatine to be continually working on Anakin, putting doubts into the whole Jedi thang, and when it's the Jedi Council who bounces him out for choosing Padme over the Jedi way of life, Uncle Palpy will be there with arms wide open to welcome him into the fold, and to entice with accessing and harnessing more power of the force through "unnatural" methods (as he alluded to in their sitdown at the opera).

The way Anakin just turns on the Jedi in that 4 minutes stretch is just too abrupt, and doesn't feel like a choice, but an emotional reaction to his childish petulence to perceived slights, which Palpy used to play Anakin as a stooge for 20 years hence. How homicidal do you have to be to betray all that you know, and even be easily convinced to single-handedly to murder all those younglings, at the drop of a hat. How could you really expect Padme to be happy about joining up with a Sith Lord?

So, in having Anakin make the choice to turn to the dark side, it makes it more of a heartfelt reversal in ROTJ as he makes another choice to seek the light, the truth, and the honor that embodies in restoring the balance he was prophesized to do all those years ago.

As it stands now, he had a bad day, and then decided to stay on the "Dog Day Afternoon" path he walked in on, and his fall from grace just seems like he stepped in some bantha poodoo, and got royally pissed about it.

This clearly doesn't work for a lot of people.

All I can say is that I bought it. Palpatine makes it very clear to Anakin that if he is to have any chance to save Padme he must kill *everyone* in the Jedi Temple and fully give himself over to the darkside.

Anakin's choice is to save Padme. That means keeping the Emperor alive and doing his bidding until he reveals that secret. Anakin has no bargaining power here- he can't say "alright, what if I don't kill all of the Jedi but just half? How about I spare the younglings?" The decision (from Anakin's point of view) is follow all of Palpatine's orders to the letter or Padme dies.

To change topic, anyone heard of an expanded score for AOTC coming out anytime? There is one for TPM and past time for AOTC. I really want the expanded one for ROTS because alot of great stuff was left out. Damn Lucas and his double dipping tendencies.

Actually, I think George Lucas has made the comment that the Jedi are not celibate, so i would think that sort of thing DOES happen especially by Jedi like Obi-Wan who have a penchant for drinking at bars. That had to help keep the population of Force Sensitivies up. Birth control must not be too great in the SW universe or a couple trying to keep their relationship secret wouldn't get pregnant would they? Or maybe the sperm of the Chosen One is just too much for any contraceptive to handle.

Patrick, your ideas for an alternate Anakin turn are interesting, but totally neglect the one thing Anakin cared about, POWER. It wasn't belonging he was after. Just because the Jedi kick him out of the club, doesn't mean he'd sign up for the Sith. That wouldn't be enough to make him turn against his and the Jedi's principles. He wanted the power to save Padme's life. A good intention perhaps, but power is what he wanted nonetheless and that "lust for power" overtook him. He DID have a choice, but he chose the path to what he thought was ultimate power. His "quick turn" is backed-up by the fact that the twins were born or "taken" at the end of the film. It's not like Anakin had years to learn the power he needed to save his wife when he saw her die in childbirth. He hadn't seen Padme for some time since he was away at war. She wasn't just pregnant when he got back, she was VERY pregnant. He needed the power and he needed it NOW. Hence, no mamby-pamby-ing around. He needed the power of the dark side, and the discovery of all its secrets as soon as humanly possible. I think that's a point a lot are missing. There was a major sense of URGENCY. Your wife's going to die in childbirth, and from the looks of her she's going to deliver pretty soon. You'd better get your ass in gear if you're going to save her. Hence kill everyone as your master says and acquire as much power as possibly by letting the power of the dark side overtake you. Frankly, I'm amazed the script did as good a job as it did explaining the fast turn. The situations and dialogue defend it pretty well. I read Lucas went back during re-shoots to clarify why he turned, so it must have been a lot more scant before. Some of those telling lines are probably what was added. Anakin really had to be under tremendous pressure, and it really was the situation with his mother all over again. He knew death was coming, but AGAIN not soon enough to prevent it, or at least that's how he perceived the case to be. In reality, he could have prevented it, since HE was the cause, not an outside force (or medical problem). That's what makes it so tragic. A noble purpose, but totally the wrong perspective on the situation thanks to the experience with his mother. Haven't you ever been so concerned with screwing up a second time that it MAKES you screw up? That's what happens in ROTS.

About the only disappointment I have now is the fact that we don't really see Anakind do anything all that powerful after he turns. He mostly slaughters helpless victims. We see him do nothing skill-wise he couldn't have at the beginning of the film. Perhaps this was intentional. He refers to his "new powers" with Padme and Obi-Wan--"Don't underestimate my powers!", but we don't see anything special. The Force choke isn't so impressive now that we have those super Force-throws and everything else. Perhaps him not suddenly becoming super-powerful was to feed the idea of his overconfidence exhibitied in full when he loses to OB1. Overconfidence so ofteh the Sith weakness. Thing is, I would tend to think this negates something Lucas said in a commentary, that the dark side really is stronger despite what Yoda says. Maybe Lucas changed his mind again, because I think if anyone was going to suddenly become much more powerful thanks to the dark side, it would be Anakin. Flirting with the dark side may have helped him out a little in the Dooku fight, but saturated with the dark side as he was against Obi-Wan, you'd think he would have performed with much more extraordinary ability, if not with saber skills, then mentally hurling volcanic rock at Obi-Wan or something.

^ Sony has announced that they have no plans to do an AOTC full score, but I'm sure there'll be something for the next major DVD release (they repackaged/rereleased the SE OSTs last fall).

While I 100% believe Lucas pushes "lets make some money" with all of the OT video releases, the OST stuff is entirely up to Sony and LFL. LFL doesn't say no to a lot of things, and Sony has been open about not doing an AOTC release because of last years OT rerelease and Sith this year.

Someone call me when all this stuff is available in a single package. I'll continue to spend and spend when needed, but man am I glad it's over!


Wsan't that planned at one point, I'd love that!

I never heard that, but cool if true. I'd like to see that added back in IF Lucas expects me to believe the dark side is stronger. Then again, by ROTS I think Obi-Wan could probably do that too.

He sure fended off the Chosen One who he believed to be a far greater Jedi than he was pretty well. Sure, Anakin may have only lost because he got overconfident and sloppy, but Obi-Wan handled him pretty well. I guess he had to take him out when he did though since chances are Anakin could have kept going and going for hours thanks to the dark side and Obi-Wan would have needed to take a lie-down. If the dark side mostly gives you endurance, maybe they should add in some more cuts of Obi-Wan panting for breath during the duel. Then again, 3 years of fighting the Clone Wars must do wonder for one's cardiovascular system. Still, Anakin has youth on his side.

The quick turn of Anakin was bad in RoTS, but the fact that we never really see him suffer throughout the prequels makes it even less sympathetic. You wonder "why the heck would this kid turn so quick?" not only because Lucas did a poor (too quick) job of explaining it in Sith, but he fails to set it up in Eps1-2.

Take Episode1: We "hear" that he's a slave only by other characters talking about it (Padme says "I thought slavery was nonexistent...") but we never see anything BAD happen to him. He's a happy golucky whiz kid, who doesn't have a bad gig in that he works for Watto who, although shady, seems to treat him okay, and he gets to polish up on his building skills where he gets to build his own podracer from scratch! How many "rich" kids in Tatooine even had a podracer?

Sure, there's dirt on him and his mom's face, that could be a sign of a hard life, but hey, it's Tatooine, a desert planet! Everyone's dusty!

And from what it looks like, mom can put food on the table, and they have shelter, which is about average for Tatooine folks who aren't in Jabba's palace.

So really there was no attempt to establish a hard life (to the degree that Lucas should have to justify a "turn" later on). All we have is a kid who can build his own podracer, win a race which looked like he had fun, and then piloted a ship by happenstance which won the battle. Not such a bad life, eh?

Then Episode 2:

Apparently he's been in Jedi training for 10 years. Now I know it's grueling, but come on, it's a pretty good life in comparison. And what do we see? Petulance from the beginning. He's arrogant, whiny, oversteps his bounds, disrespects authority, and is in love with the most beautiful woman in the galaxy. Not such a bad life here either. He is on his way to becoming the most powerful Jedi, and the only thing we see of him suffering is the death of his mother, which he has a chance to work out by slaughtering the sand people (whereas a death unavenged can eat at the heart more than when you can actually take revenge on the killers). But even that turn is rather quick.

What I think should have happened
Starting w/ Ep1, the kid should have been a little older (maybe I just hated Lloyd's performance). Then we should see that he leads a hard life. Maybe Watto is tougher on him. They can't make ends meet, they get scraps of food from dumpsters, mom's beaten when she doesn't do the master's bidding to his satisfaction. In fact, show a few slaves leading bad lives (maybe a fellow child friend of his who is beaten).

Whatever it takes, we should see that he had a troubled and difficult life. Yet through it all, a strong will, resolve and defiance radiates from him. This hard life isn't taking him down, and despite it, he can and does succeed at things like building and winning the podrace.

He does want to free the slaves and ensure freedom throughout the galaxy because he wants to free people from any situation that resembles what he came from in Tatooine.

So at least now, when he's petulant in Ep2, we see it's because of the hard life he led, and how he wants to ascend up the ranks so that he can be part of the council and do good. Then when he returns to Tatooine, show that nothing has changed, it is still a slave-situation, and maybe have a scene where his dying mother asks why the Jedi and the Republic failed to help their planet? That would be the impetus as to why he wants to get more power to either be able to steer the Council to go to action, or to break out on his own since it's pretty clear that the Council is not a fast moving body of action.

Now that you have him feeling like the Council is part to blame, that democracy in action (often slow) is partially to blame, and that being "held down by OB1" is partially to blame, you can start to justify the turn.

And of course, in RoTS that turn scene needs to be elongated. Maybe have Palpy state "now that you've helped with Master Windu's demise you can NEVER go back!" and have Anakin fight against that feeling, saying that he can bring Palpatine in and make amends, and then have the Palpy work further verbal voodoo on him to drive home how futile his attempt at redemption would be, and how there is only one way to not only escape punishment by the Council, but to also restore order to the galaxy (and bring up his mom here, just as Vader used "sister" to set off Luke in RoTJ--"if you won't join me to save yourself...do it to avenge your mother!"). Palpy's most potent force has always been his silver (forked) tongue. Use it!

Again, this is a quick skeletal outline that I came up with in like 5 minutes, but I think something like this should have been followed as opposed to what we got.

Grant, I realize Lucas wanted to put the pressure of the dreams to heightened the desperation level of Anakin, and to cling to Palpy's claim of being able to help with the situation, but if you were Anakin, wouldn't you want proof of such a claim before changing your allegiances on basically a hope and prayer?

Also, regarding how far along Padme is, I have a problem with the timeline of this film. Things happen from planet to planet, with little regard to the time it takes to get from planet to planet, and are we to just assume that getting to all the locations in the film takes a few hours at most? Seems to be, if there are long stretches of time involved, cooler heads should prevail in weighing the options. But Lucas structured his screenplay so that it seems like characters can get from one planet to another in the blink of an eye, which gives off that sense of urgency, but it doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny.

Was Padme 6 months along at the start of the film, and then 2 months pass by the time she decides to hop in her starcruiser to find Anakin on Mustafar? I have a hard time believing that planet was just around the corner from Coruscant. Wasn't it out in the outer rim?

Also, consider Anakin spurning the Jedi order for attachment to Padme, it makes some sort of sense given his background. It creates animosity between Anakin and OB1 if OB1 ratted him out too, which sets up the lava duel. You could incorporate his fears of Padme dying in childbirth, but if you bring in the rebuke by the Jedi Council earlier, and he choose to turn away from them, then you can lay the foundation for him to go train to be a dark lord of the sith as he seeks out Palpy to become his full-time apprentice, while keeping Palpy around as Chancellor, and then Anakin comes back to wipe out the Jedi order with a plan of own accord, as payment to Palpy to save Padme for him. In this scenario, Anakin is fully aware of the price he pays to keep the woman he loves alive. It's not a choice driven by circumstance, but a choice drive by the seduction of power of the dark side. Plus, it would lend more credence to what Ben tells Luke in ANH without making Ben out to be a big big liar in order to manipulate Luke to a larger extent.

And one more thing, in this scenario, Padme does survive childbirth, but is sickened by Anakin's turn to the dark side, and she takes the twins, hands Luke over to OB1 to be raised by the Lars, and along the way, OB1 drops off Yoda on Dagobah, cut to a quick shot of baby Luke looking all around at the swampiness before OB1 and Luke go towards Tatooine. And then Padme escapes to the Alderaan system, enlists the aid of Bail Organa to live surreptiously, lives for a few years, raising Leia, but overall sad, helps with the start of the Rebel Alliance with Mon Mothma, but eventually dies of a broken heart within 5 years as news of Darth Vader's quest to eradicate the Jedi becomes more and more of a reality.

The traveling times are all screwed up in the film but I don't think there is inconsistency in the timeline of Padme's pregnancy. How prematurely can a baby be born and still have a good chance to survive? I'd guess that Padme was at least seven to eight months pregnant when the film starts. The Art of book makes mention about how Padme's costumes were designed to conceal her pregnancy.

Hyperspace times- boy I have no idea. The films have never given a good idea of them. We've had some footage in the films that indicate that it can take several hours but nothing that I can remember to indicate days or more. A lot of it in Sith seems *much* quicker but I'll give the film a pass here because it works so well in keeping the narrative barreling forward. I also think Empire suffers just as much with respect to timeline issues too and I have no problem turning a blind eye there.

I've heard that ROTS takes place over a short period of time. Padme is already well along at the beginning of the film.

Haven't any of you guys actually seen a woman pregnant with twins? This was one of my few gripes of this film: by the end, Padme looks like she's maybe 5-6 months along with one baby, not two. Then, when the twins are finally delivered, they are two huge 2 month old babies. Exactly where was she keeping them inside her body?

Jacinto, since when is Padme from Earth.

We're talking about a story that has lightsabers, wookies, the force, and spaceships. Trying to relate it to what "we're" used to kinda defeats the purpose.

She's still human..

Maybe they shoulda used CG babies.

the way GL handed Padme was imbecilic.
i agree with Patrick. i was thinking of this earlier today and it would have seemed much more natural for Bail to come to her aid and comfort and spirited her away to Alderran (and eventually marry him and live a reclusive life for a while and then die).

if Anakin can't sense the presence of twins in his wife's belly beside him, i'm sure he won't be able to sense the presence of Padme on Alderran, if she is purposefully keeping out of the limelight.

and another thing i would have done.
when Palpatine informs Anakin what has happened and he gives off his famous NOOOOO- i would have had him tear the place apart and throttle and kill (suicidely) that old man for driving him to this.
why does he want to go on now?
(well, besides that the next stories need him to be there)
at least that would be kindof/sortof consistent with the rash impulsiveness, thoughtlessness, anger, desperation of the character that we are being sold leading up to this

these qualities seem to slip away at what is surely a convienent time (for the screenwriter)

Have you people claiming that Anakin's turn was quick watched AOTC lately? Remember the part where Anakin's mom dies and he vows to never let that happen again to someone he loves?

Flash forward to ROTS and the scene in Palpatine's office. Here you have:

1) Palpatine, who has claimed to have the ability to save Padme; and

2) Mace Windu, who doesn't care for or trust Anakin, and who represents an order that rejects Anakin's marriage and forthcoming child.

Honestly, guys, given the background of AOTC and the impact of his choice, it's not too hard to understand why he made the choice he did.

I'm not saying it was the right choice, but given the human condition, it's a choice that lots of us make (in big and small ways) everyday.

Chris, great point and just to add to that...remember how after killing Dooku, Palpetine reminds both Anakin and us of what happened with the Tuskans in AOTC. I think this was a deleberate thing to get us thinking about those scenes and Anakin's promise.

Good idea there. My idea is pretty similiar. Start Anakin older, perhaps already a Padawan. His mother is a slave and maybe there is some destiny that Anakin will free the slaves. In Episode II (or very late in Episode I), he returns to Tatooine and maybe tries to raise some army to free the slaves or on his own, but he fails and gets almost killed because the Jedi did not train him well enough, or so he believes. And his mother does die. Extremely frustrated and disappointed in his defeat, he blames the Jedi and Obi-Wan for not making him powerful enough, and Palpatine's promise to make him more powerful than anyone could possibly imagine is an intoxicating idea that is instrumental to him turning to the dark side.

During the Clone Wars, Anakin is again frustrated at how the Jedi, supposedly so mighty, seem almost helpless even though they are extremely outnumbered by whatever force they are fighting. The war is taking too long. Palpatine appeals to Anakin's power hungry nature and assures him that, if he(Anakin) turns to the dark side, HE can end the war and be a hero of the Republic. At this time, Palpatine brings up the fact that with so much freedom in the galaxy, there will always be revolts and insurgencies and that a new type of government is needed that does away with most personel freedoms BUT at the gain of guaranteed peace and order. As an extra incentive for becoming Palpatine's Sith apprentice, he is guaranteed a position of power in the new Empire. Anakin is not a politician, so Palpatine assures him he would be more of an enforcer than a political figure where his power will help keep law and order.