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*** Official STAR WARS Saga (episodes I to VI) Discussion Thread: Part 4 - Page 6

post #151 of 2811
5/23/05 at 2:54pm
as i think about this more and more i have found something that doesn't sit well

isn't anyone else bothered by the fact that the Emperor never has a chance to be redeemed or atone as his chief enforcer does?

wouldn't the saga have been that much better if the emperor also was 'called back from the darkside' and we could see 'wow! he's just a sad old, misguided man too"?
he didn't start out evil- its that damn darkside- once it gets a hold of you its all consuming' to quote someone in the other thread.
so doesn't that mean its not really his fault- or- he's about as guilty as Vader its just that vader has the virture of being more incompetant at seducing new souls into the fold.

think of how much more balance that would have brought to the force if the emperor were suddenly made good at the end of VI.
i think, in the SW universe, the balance should go to 11-so to speak

besides, is the Emperor really that much more evil than Vader? to me it looks like Anakin sure threw himself into the bloodlust and misery making with some real enthusiasm.
if he deserves, thematically, some redemptive glory, why not the Emperor?
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post #152 of 2811
5/23/05 at 2:58pm
No
No
Yes
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post #153 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:03pm
Let it go, Paul.
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post #154 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:18pm
Matt,
It doesn't resonate as deep with me. I do have sympathy for Anakin, and I'm grateful for his (fictional) peaceful death. But his acts as Darth Vader are not separate from Anakin. I mentioned in my review thread that I'll always remember Anakin with the younglings, even as he is seeking peace (which he deserves). Any real redemption is another matter...maybe more for Yoda and Obi-Wan than Anakin.

That face (of Anakin) is the last thing some very idealistic children saw. They looked to him for protection. It's a powerful scene, and it works. And it resonates with me.

Take care,
Chuck
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post #155 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:26pm
I do not disagree with you, Chuck. You can't have the redemption without those acts.
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post #156 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Let it go


it may have been framed in a smart-alecky way, but i actually think its a valid point to discuss (not that anyone else will probably want to).
i keep hearing so often that the theme of this saga is "Love"
love redeems Anakin, etc
if it were not for the Love of Luke for the father he had never known...
no matter how many horrendous acts he may have done, it all started because he loved Padme so much that he just couldn't bear the thought of...

etc etc.

a lot of people had no problem accepting, without the benefit of any prequal material for over 16 yrs, that Vader was 'deep down' a good character after all- even after 2 films where he did nothing but vile, evil, black hearted acts.
and they found great satisfaction that he was turned away from the darkness before he expired.

i find it interesting that extending the same thematic courtesy to Palpatine would probably strike a lot of these same people as so out of bounds.
i think you guys take every post of mine as a bash of Lucas.
this is a serious inquiry.
why is Palpatine a less deserving bad guy than Anakin 'slayer of children' Skywalker is?
just because we haven't seen his backstory?
because we've only seen him when he's old and not young and good looking?
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post #157 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:37pm
So how long until ghost-Ewan replaces Sir Alec in the SE versions....
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post #158 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:50pm
Even GL won't touch Sir Alec. Only his most ardent fans would not cry foul on that

Don't get me wrong, Matt. I understand that Anakin's entire life as Vader is punishment for his acts that made him so. I forget who said it a while back, but Anakin is redeemed in the eyes of his son. I can accept that. But not more. Anakin is no hero.

I'm a hardliner...what can I say

Take care,
Chuck
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post #159 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:51pm
Paul,
No one is saying that Anakin/Vader is the "good" guy. We're saying that his story is a tragic one. He had the potential for good, but he made the wrong decisions and turned to evil. His goal of saving Padme was not a bad thing, but his means were evil. Palpatine's goals were always control and power over everyone and everything. This isn't nearly as honorable and as a result, not tragic. Palpatine did not "fall from grace," he simply sought to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.

Though, I'm sure you'll just sarcastically dismiss my entire post as being the words a Lucas-apologist.
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post #160 of 2811
5/23/05 at 4:56pm
Quote:
I can accept that. But not more. Anakin is no hero.


I completely agree. Anakin's story reminds me a bit of Angel:

"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
...
"All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Redemption is an uphill struggle that is never actually attained. The quest is the reward. Anakin's evils will never be erased, but the fact that he finally acknowledged his actions as what they were is a step in the right direction.
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post #161 of 2811
5/23/05 at 5:00pm
Quote:
why is Palpatine a less deserving bad guy than Anakin 'slayer of children' Skywalker is?


Because almost all myths and most religions have figures that are irredeemably evil. It's what makes conflict ultimately work in a story.
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post #162 of 2811
5/23/05 at 5:06pm
Chuck:

Can you reconcile two things you've said:

1. That the most tragic thing about Anakin in ROTS is that he still had a choice to be good or bad, when he thought he didn't have a choice. You said this in response to the "once you start down the dark path" theory that explains how Anakin's turn was "quick" in ROTS.

2. That Anakin is, basically, iredeemable by the time of ROTJ because of all the bad stuff he's done.

So, my question to you is, if he STILL could have avoided the dark path in Palpatine's chamber in ROTS, even after killing innocent Tuskens, disobeying the Jedi code by marrying Padme, and killing Dooku in cold blood, why no redemption for him after he does a bunch more bad things in the OT?
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post #163 of 2811
5/23/05 at 5:11pm
Because redemption is not a step (it's a journey)...unless you've only taken a step. Anakin took a long journey into the Dark Side. And he started by leaping into the abyss itself in the Temple. No single act could salvage him. I think he recognizes that.

Anakin made the choice at every turn to continue down the path. He could have stepped back from the precipice (to an extent) after cutting Mace's arm off. But his acts in the Temple damned him. His acts on Mustafar damned him. And he KNOWS this. He sheds a tear on Mustafar for this.

I don't think the code has anything to do with either side. His being married is meaningless to the Force. Dooku, well that act was a step. But only a step.

Not all steps are equal,
Chuck
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post #164 of 2811
5/23/05 at 5:13pm
Because almost all myths and most religions have figures that are irredeemably evil. It's what makes conflict ultimately work in a story.


One of the touches I like in ROTS is the use of "Duel of the Fates" over the Emperor/Yoda battle. While the Obi/Anakin battle is personal, I like the idea that the battle happening in the Senate chamber is symbolic in the ultimate of evil battling the ultimate of good. I would loved it if there were a way to stage and edit the Obi/Anakin battle so it corresponded with whoever had the upper hand in the Yoda/Sideous battle.
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post #165 of 2811
5/23/05 at 5:20pm
Anakinmade the choice at every turn to continue down the path. He could have stepped back from the precipice (to an extent) after cutting Mace's arm off. But his acts in the Temple damned him. His acts on Mustafar damned him. And he KNOWS this. He sheds a tear on Mustafar for this.


Thinking about it earlier today, I don't think Anakin "turned" when he attacked Mace. He didn't kill Mace, only "disarmed" him when he was going to make the killing blow on the Emperor. He could have been entirely justified at that stage- Palpatine was acting like he was weak and defenseless (although the audience of course knows differently.

Palpatine had a great point earlier in the movie- what crime had he committed? Palpatine had seduced Anakin with the idea that the Sith were demonized by the Jedi but were not actually evil. Meanwhile, the Jedi were violating their principles in asking Anakin to spy on one of his closest friends.

With all of the information that Anakin had up until the moment he attacked Mace, I think he could have struck at Mace while remaining on the lightside.

It was only after that, at the temple, where he truly turned....
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post #166 of 2811
5/23/05 at 6:37pm
I commented in the other thread about how flat I found Return of the Jedi's cinematography. Looking up on IMDB what other works the DP had done, I see that Alec Mills was an uncredited DP on Jedi. In his bio section it read:

He was Alan Hume's assistant on Return of the Jedi (1983). He handled much of the principal photography during the final month of filming because Hume had a falling out with the producers over the treatment accorded to the film's director, the late Richard Marquand.


I've always heard that Lucas directed much of Jedi himself but its interesting to see that conflict on the set went all the way down to this level.
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post #167 of 2811
5/23/05 at 6:41pm
Quote:
Palpatine's goals were always control and power over everyone and everything. This isn't nearly as honorable and as a result, not tragic. Palpatine did not "fall from grace," he simply sought to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.

Though, I'm sure you'll just sarcastically dismiss my entire post as being the words a Lucas-apologist.


no Matt.
you fairly well articulated your pov.

however i would point out that Vaders goals thruout eps 4 and 5 were not altruistic or honorable either.
and many of you didn't seem to need to explicitly see his fall from grace before you accepted a fundemental change in character as 'satisfying' and 'emotionally powerful'.


but we still don't know why Palpatine wants/feels he needs power.
i'm not saying that the series is would be better if we knew why, or that it is worse because we don't- just that when Lucas decided that the entirity of SW was a tragedy (i don't think that really fits, myself) or a fall from grace and then an rise back, he has also muddied the waters in regards to the values espoused in the stories
-assuming he is still maintianing that these are primarily stories for children and vehicles for them to recieve values
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post #168 of 2811
5/23/05 at 6:53pm
Kevin,

I actually think that by disarming Mace, it was more painful for Anakin. He enabled Palpy to kill this Jedi Master. He let himself get lost in the moment so to speak.

I also think it's more effective than Anakin killing him.

The issue of redemption. Wow. HUGE topic. We've covered it I think now in all 4 SAGA threads. But it's also deserving of repeated discussions since it's such a personal issue. Interpretation and meaning for each of us is different.

I've always associated Redemption with Christianity and I know that it's a sensitive issue so I purposely keep my thoughts on that topic safe on this forum.

I never thought of it like this until a few weeks ago and I think it was Chuck who said this. Correct me if I'm wrong. :b Vader is not redeemed for all the horrid acts he did. Vader's redemption is with his son, Luke, who believed in his goodness enough to disarm himself in front of the Emperor. Luke's love for his father is what brings Anakin back. Not the Force, not any code.

And it's the one thing that evil can't fathom. Love. Hokey?Maybe. But it works for me.
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post #169 of 2811
5/23/05 at 6:57pm
I actually think that by disarming Mace, it was more painful for Anakin. He enabled Palpy to kill this Jedi Master. He let himself get lost in the moment so to speak.


Oh sure, I agree. Its all the more painful because its at that moment that Anakin sees Palpatine for who he truly is. He'd never seen Papatine's true color before that.
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post #170 of 2811
5/23/05 at 7:03pm
Tim,
i think Ernest is another one who continually chaffes at the use of the phrase redemption and prefers another word (atonement?).
i remember agreeing with his thoughts on this(as far as 'redemption' doesn't qualify), but for the life of me, everytime i glance the subject, 'redemption' is the only word that springs to front of my mind to use.
on the other hand, i don't think what occurs qualifies as atonement either.

Quote:
Vader's redemption is with his son, Luke, who believed in his goodness enough to disarm himself in front of the Emperor.

And Vader redeems himself in front of his son by murdering the proper person this time.
what do you give that special Jedi- what says 'i love you' more than murdering their enemy for them?
especially when they can't do it themselves.
y'now, one of the things that i find disappointing about the prequels, is how much respect i don't have for the Jedi.
after Bens speech in 4, to see them constantly portrayed as clueless & ineffectual, passionless and sterile, i kind of have to wonder if Luke wanting to become a Jedi is such a grand goal anyway.

Quote:
Luke's love for his father is what brings Anakin back. Not the Force, not any code.

And it's the one thing that evil can't fathom. Love. Hokey?Maybe. But it works for me.


so ultimately what seperates Anakin from Palpatine is that Palpatine fathered no children (er...uh...) who could love him("for just being yourself, daddy.") and overlook his galaxy spanning atrocities?
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post #171 of 2811
5/23/05 at 7:09pm
Here are the results so far from the polls of the 6 star wars films in the polls area of the forum here ...

Ep 1 = 5.47 (The Phantom Menace)
Ep 2 = 6.30 (Attack Of The Clones)
Ep 3 = 8.37 (Revenge Of The Sith)
Ep 4 = 8.88 (A New Hope)
Ep 5 = 9.30 (The Empire Strikes Back)
Ep 6 = 7.43 (Return Of The Jedi)

Interesting, a steady increase in film ratings all the way to Ep 5 then a major dip with the final film in the saga (Return Of The Jedi).
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post #172 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:09pm
Okay, you punks who went to Celebration III, why didn't you tell me my girl Morgan Webb was there? And as a Jedi, no less. Geek girls rock.

Did anyone who went see her?
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post #173 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:11pm
Okay, you punks who went to Celebration III, why didn't you tell me my girl Morgan Webb was there? And as a Jedi, no less. Geek girls rock.


Gotta picture?
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post #174 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:15pm
Quote:
however i would point out that Vaders goals thruout eps 4 and 5 were not altruistic or honorable either.


Aside from trying to find his son, he had no goals at all. He was the enforcer of the Emperor. He did only what he was told to do (even Tarkin pushed him around). It wasn't until he found that his son survived, that his own goals begin to develop. First to pull Luke into the Dark-Side, second to pull look to his side and kill the Emperor, and finally to join Luke.

I thought we agreed to suspend this argument a long time ago. We're both stubborn, and all we're going to do is repeat ourselves
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post #175 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Gotta picture?

Nah, it's on G4 on TV right now. The robes cover up, ah, well . . . let's just say I prefer her as a non-Jedi, but it's cool for this once.
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post #176 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:20pm
They just showed Super Star Wars. Anyone but me NOT like the Super NES Star Wars games? They were riddled with slowdown, which was bad enough, but they diverged too much. Super wampas? What's really weird is, I loved the NES Empire Strikes Back game when I first tried it, but now I can't even play more than a couple of minutes. I can't stand it.
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post #177 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:23pm
I don' think I've played Super Star Wars in a decade but I remember really enjoying it.
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post #178 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:24pm
Oh, man. Now, she's fighting with a lightsaber.
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post #179 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:31pm
Okay, last X-Play comment, since the show is over, but that was actually pretty funny. The co-host supposedly hacked somebody with a saber, and they actually played a Wilhelm. Heh.
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post #180 of 2811
5/23/05 at 8:58pm
On the subject of Palpatine's "redemption:"

If we ask this question, why don't we just ask it about pretty much any literary work, ever? Does Iago deserve a shot at redemption in "Othello"? I choose this example specfically because Palpatine truly does mirror Iago in many ways. How about Claudius in "Hamlet?"

Or how about films: does Sauron deserve that chance in Lord of the Rings? How do we not know he's just some misunderstood character?

I think we can ask this about just about any villian, but we're always going to say the same thing (or at least I assume we will): No, because they are inherently evil. And that's what we should say about Palpatine; if anything, that's something the PT just reinforces: that he, not Vader is the ultimate evil in the galaxy.
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