*** Official STAR WARS Saga (episodes I to VI) Discussion Thread: Part 4 - Page 5

Count me as in favor of watching the OT then PT (for SW virgins).

Obviously the "Luke I am your father" line is one reason for watching the OT first, but there are others:

1. The startling change of special effects / # of ships/worlds/technology/etc. I know some of us can justify or rationalize why with Ep4-6 (if you watch 1-6) look as they do, but for a Star Wars virgin they're going to WTF happened after Ep3 to all the technology and stuff? (this of course is something Lucas is trying to rectify by constantly re-doing and adding CGI to the OT but unless he just flat out re-shoots the OT it's still never going to match effects-wise)

2. The background of what the Jedi are. All that in-depth explanation of the Jedi that we take for granted (keepers of the peace, etc.)? Most brilliantly explained by Obi Wan in Star Wars. Otherwise all you have if you start w/ Ep1 is a sentence in the opening scroll explaining it, rather than Obi Wan first describing it to Luke, and then going on to show him what Jedi are all about in Star Wars. Episode 1 ASSUMES you know what Jedi are already.

3. Lightsabers. Why do Jedi use them? A more elegant weapon for a more civilized time...not as clumsy or random as a blaster. Where did that come from? Oh yeah the OT, specifically Star Wars. Otherwise you're just thrown into Ep1 and are wondering why these guys are wielding swords while everyone else is blasting at them. Oh yeah, and Ewan's joke in RoTS about having to use the blaster against Grievous is set up by his explanation in Star Wars.

4. Explanation of the Force. Do you really want to introduce your Star Wars virgin to the force by midichlorian count? Or would you rather have Yoda explaning about the energy that surrounds us and binds us, luminous beings are we, not this crude matter...

That's all I'm going to elaborate on right now, on just a couple minutes worth of thinking. I'm sure if I really pressed for it I could come up with a few more.
Ouch! True...but ouch!

Actually, I think when intro'ing new people to SW, I would show the OT, then I would actually either give a verbal rundown of Ep1 (which would take about 5 mins) or do a FF tour through it (skipping the many, many cringeworthy moments), and start with Ep2 and go from there to Ep3.

On the subject of dreams and Episode I, remember Anakin's line about his dream of freeing all the slaves? Here, we had a selfless act, but by ROTS it is contrasted as his dreams only lead him to think about himself; although he is attempting to save someone else (Padme), it is, as others have pointed out, a selfish act.

So, I suppose that line isn't so much a throwaway line anymore, even though that dream never does come true. The dream motif throughout the PT is very interesting, IMO.

Also, two cents on Obi-Wan referring to Luke as the last hope: perhaps he already sensed that Leia had formed such a strong attachment to Han that, in his opinion, she would certainly repeat Anakin's mistakes, even moreso than Luke at this point. Just something that crossed my mind. I mean, there has to be some reason he doesn't see Leia as a hope, because we all know now that he is certainly aware of her existence.

Actually I think that both Yoda and Obi-Wan have likely completely rethought the Jedi Order's way of training, non-attachment, etc by that point.

Actually at that point (the creation of Empire Strikes Back) I believe the real reason is that Luke and Leia were not brother/sister then. They [Lucas & Co] hadn't formulated who the other Skywalker was (Kurtz has said he/she was on the other side of the galaxy) and that was meant to add some mystique to be unveiled in the next movie with the arrival/recruitment of the other Skywalker.

You didn't really think that Lucas would have had them passionately kiss if he knew they were related at the time, would you?

great line from Ep II

Anakin to Padme: "I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever, I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying"

Yeah, I'm well aware of this, but since Lucas made it so obvious that Obi-Wan was aware of Leia in ROTS, I think it's interesting to wonder why Leia isn't even considered by Obi-Wan in ESB.

I think it would have been a lot better had Lucas kept Obi-Wan ignorant of Leia's birth, but I can see how that might be kind of impossible, given how ROTS played out.

So I guess the real question is why didn't Lucas just do that instead?



Well, if this is true, why do they warn Luke not to go to Cloud City? I think they, like the viewers, see Luke repeating Anakin's mistakes. Remember, Obi-Wan doesn't want to "lose Luke to the emperor the same way he lost Vader." While they don't seem to be strictly forbidding his attachment to Leia and Han, they don't seem to be too thrilled that there's another Skywalker concerned with saving the ones he loves, given how that turned out the last time. In fact, once Luke leaves, Yoda is already turning to "another," indicating that he believes Luke will fail. I think only when Luke refuses to join Vader and the dark side in ESB (and again in ROTJ), and continues to love his father unconditionally, he shows that the Jedi were wrong in thier views on attachment.

I think this is a great discussion going on. As others have pointed out, this is so much better than endless fanboy bickering that usually comes out of Star Wars discussions.

I've had a thought about just the kind of power Palpetine wields. Do you suppose that Palps can influence Anakin's dreams? In other words did Palps somehow through the force cause Anakin to have those dreams about first his mother and later Padme...in sort of an attempt to warm him up for his eventual turn. In TPM he says that they'll be watching his career with great interest. Palpetine has a tangible influence on Anakin as he tells Anakin that he forsees him becoming the greatest of all the Jedi and he plants this in Anakin's brain and then Anakin starts to desire that very thing, but I wonder if somehow Palpetine could manipulate the force to cause Anakin's dreams? I guess the only problem with that theory is that Anakin has a dream about her dying in childbirth and he hadn't likely told Palps that she was pregnant at that point if ever.
Though I suppose Palps could manipulate it in such away that Anakin has dreams relating to the pain of loss and the force fills in the rest. It was just something I thought of while watching ROTS but also while considering his dreams in AOTC.

Oh man now I'm gonna be lying in bed tonight picturing Yoda stumbling to the can in the middle of the night and then deciding to use his lightsabre to find the way.

I've thought about it but I prefer to think of Palps as an opportunist. Sure he's orchestrated so much of the overall plan meticulously, but he's also well aware of when an opportunity drops into his lap and will use that too.

In the first draft of ROTS, Palpatine tries to get Anakin to believe that Dooku arranged for his mother's kidnapping by the sandpeople and I'm relieved Lucas jettisoned that idea early on. It could still be chalked up as a lie, but it starts to present a degree of control on Palpatine's part I find unbelievable, even for a Sith Master.

The other reason I chafe at too much orchestration is that I think Anakin's fall is more effective if we realize that he had a choice in it.

I don't like the idea that Dooku orchestrated the kidnapping of Schmi as that would really be going to great lengths to accomplish something. As for the planting the dreams idea I'm not sure I love it, but I'll say this much, even if it were Palps trying to influence the kinds of dreams Anakin has it doesn't change the fact that ultimately Anakin chooses to give in to his fears of those dreams coming true and take the steps he thinks will keep them from coming true, which is the very thing that makes them come true.

I disagree. I would say that the Luke telepathically contacting Leia scene at the end of the film is a good sign that by the the making of ESB Lucas scripted them to be siblings.

Several new Force skills are displayed in ESB. I thought Luke contacting Leia was just another one of them. He didn't know Lando, Han was a popsicle, and droids don't count. That leaves Leia It could go either way. It's certainly not proof they were intended to be siblings.

In the other thread, I posted definitive, SCIENTIFIC proof that ESB is the best film in the Saga (or you could trust me). Just wanted to follow up on that. Besides having the best lines in the saga (I posted THE best one), it also features the first meeting between Vader and Luke, and Luke and Yoda. It is also the most Vader-centric of all the films, except ROTS.

But basically, just Vader.

Take care,
Chuck

Just a quick question...

If Qui Gon taught Yoda and Obi Wan how to cheat death and become one with the force, who taught Anakin this skill?

Plothole 101.

Or since Anakin had the astronomical midichlorian count, he didn't need no stinkin' training like Q-G, Yoda or OB1.

Ok. so at the end of sith yoda teaches OBW how to commune with QGJ. But who teaches luke? even if yoda did, Luke still saw OBW at the beginning of ESB before he met yoda. And I don't see how obiwan would ever have the time. He really wasn't around long.

I'm with Chuck on this one. And when I first heard about the Luke/Leia not originally being siblings was not recent, when the Internet boomed and spread information (and disinformation) across the galaxy. I had read about it around the time when Return of the Jedi came out, in several articles back in the day. Yes I was a nerd as a kid.

Internet reprintings of various articles and interviews, and all new ones (like the Kurtz one in Filmthreat) basically confirmed what I had remembered reading.

Seriously Richard, it's out there and it's pretty well known (and generally accepted) that at the time ESB was written, they were not siblings. This is not meant as a critique. We all know the story was very fluid in George's mind. But it is the way it was at the time, hence the kiss and the love triangle. The Luke/Leia/Han triangle harkens back to the great "2 guys competing for one girl" motif that is as old as the hills.

Ah, good point. It would have been kind of hard to pull off, though I guess the twins could have been born under duress (i.e. the ships were being attacked) and, say, Luke popped out first and Obi-Wan took him and went off in his own shuttle/fighter.

Then later, Leia pops out just before the destruction of the ship and the Organas take her and Yoda goes off to Dagobah.

Okay maybe not that hard to pull off

Or maybe Obi-wan's a tad bit sexist (he's already shows to be a little arrogant in the prequels) and doesn't think a girl, even the daughter of Skywalker, can restore balance to the force.

Did Yoda teach OBW to communicate with QGJ or did QGJ teach OBW how to become one with the force? I don't think you need to be taught how to see someone through the force (that appears to come naturally with Yoda and Luke}), but it does seem that one needs to be tought how transcend life. It doesn't bother me that Anakin never learns how. It could be his reward for finally doing the right thing. Either way, as I said before, the ghost shot at the end of Jedi has even more power in it now. Especially with Hayden as Anakin.

Saw Ep2 in High Def. on Fox last night. First time I watched a SW movie in High Def. The picture was very sharp. Watched it on 61 or 63" Samsung DLP. They might have formatted it to fit 16X9 but it didn't look pan/scan to me.

Question: How did Leia know about Obi-Wan when she leaves her distress message in R2D2? (Star Warss IV) "You're my only hope." Without seeing Episode III you would simply think that Obi-Wan kept in touch with Leia through the years, but that can't be after watching Episode III. What gives?

- Colton

"General Kenobi, Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars; now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person; but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to Alderaan has failed. I've placed information vital to the survival of the rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope."

Thanks, Matt. So, what "father" is she referring to? Is she talking about Anakin? If so, where does she get the idea that Anakin (now Darth Vader) "begs" for Obi-Wan to help him against the Empire? Why is she calling Obi-Wan a General? This is very confusing.

- Colton

She's referring to Bail Organa.

yeah, it can't be Anakin because OBW didn't "serve" Anakin...

He was a General leading the Clones in the Clone War. I believe even Grievous calls me that, "General Kenobi..."

Maybe in the "you got served!" sense, he did!

Doesn't somebody refer to Obi-Wan as "General" in ROTS? Though I might be imagining that.

Edit: OK, maybe it was Grievous, as Tim says.

Commander Cody refers to Obi-Wan as "General" 2x, as does Greivous. Did Oddball call him "General" when he gave the command to support them in the opening flight?

Matt's got the right of it. Obi-Wan is supposed to learn how to become one with the force, not how to communicate with QGJ.

Stll doesn't explain how Anakin learned though....

Me? I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur.

I posted this in the discussion thread, and I'll repeat it here. While Anakin's appearance as a ghost doesn't make perfect logical sense, it does make emotional sense. The payoff of seeing Anakin return to his rightful place at Obi-Wan's side is totally worth the possible continuity issues.