Sony Pictures continues to drop existing widescreen transfers - Page 5

IIRC, it was not the DVD makers who pushed the pan & scan format. Rather, they responded to pressure from certain retailers (specifically Walmart and a couple of others) who demanded fullscreen versions of new releases or else they threatened to not carry the widescreen. Walmart said that they were responding to customer complaints about "horrid black bars" on DVD's and the high number of returns they got as a result. Not long afterwards, catalog titles (a LOT of family films) began appearing in fullscreen. Unfortunately, now, the rest is history...

Gary, I am really glad you brought this up. So often you hear people gripe that the studios and retailers like WAL-MART are force feeding P&S editions on the consumers when in fact it is absolutely the opposite. The studios and retailers spend millions of dollars on market research in order to provide products that sell. The only reason P&S editions are made is because not only do they sell, but there are millions of consumers that not only buy them, but actually ask/demand them.

As I, and others have said, if you want to see greater support of OAR editions then focus your efforts on selling the benefits of OAR to every consumer you can.

If you ever run into a situation as described in Steve's post stop, and explain to them the benefits of widescreen displays (but more importantly OAR sources). If they hear it from someone that does not work for the retailer and who can convey a certain level of expertise they will be more likely to understand and trust that opinion.

For all the conspiracy theories and rants regarding studios and retailers "pushing" P&S editions on unsuspecting consumers, not once has anyone ever made a meaningful argument why they would do that, and how these "evil" companies would benefit from such a conspiracy.

These companies are in the business of meeting the demands of the market place. While it is certainly true many companies (like WAL-MART) will often refuse to sell a product (like certain men's magazines) even when there is a demand because it does not comply with that said company's doctrine. It is equally true that there is no logistical evidence that would support the theory that any retailer, including WAL-MART, might have a moral issue that would cause them to ignore "widescreen" DVDs.

Please, if you really want OAR to thrive, talk to your family, friends, neighbors, even stranagers you might run into at your local electronic stores!

BTW: Steve, let me be the first to welcome you to the forum and congratulate you on what may be one of the best introductory posts for a new member!

Certainly it's all well and good to educate consumers. But believe me, there are legions of folk out there who don't care to be educated and won't be enlightened on this issue.

That's why I blame the studios as the #1 culprit. They alone had the ultimate power to keep this genie in the bottle, but they didn't do it.

Market research shows that some people prefer fullscreen you say? So what. Market research shows that kids would like to eat candy for lunch and dinner. Parents don't let them. The studios should be the parents, the defenders of the integrity of the works of art they control.

I know someone will say "but they're a business, they exist to make money, so they give people what they want, blah, blah." To which I say "Hogwash." If studios offered movies on DVD in one way only, in the proper OAR, then even people who prefer P&S would still buy them. I guarantee you that there are lots of J6P's out there who prefer fullscreen but still have quite a few widescreen DVDs on their shelf because that's the only way that movie came. They may grumble about the black bars, but they still bought it. Let them buy DVD players with "zoom" control if they simply must fill the screen.

I don't believe that Walmart is forcing Columbia to do only fullscreen editions. Walmart has had a number of titles in widescreen. They just had a large number of Paramount titles, most of which were widescreen. They have also had a
number of titles that were in widescreen. I believe that the movie companies are to blame. They are making the conscious decision be it Columbia or Universal to cxreate
fullscreen versions only.

Nils, thank you for your warm welcome to the HTF.

I totally agree with you that we should take the opportunity, whenever possible, to educate those around us about the benefits of OAR. When my little cousin was only 8 years old (he's 12 now, and soon will be towering over me) I pointed out the differences between wide screen and pan and scan. He understood it immediately. His bed room TV is a 19" diagonal, but you'll only catch him watching OAR DVD's on it. That's one more for our side!

Unfortunately Glenn hit tha nail on the head as he described those people who focus not on the material presented, but on the hardware itself. I cannot over state their hatred of the black bars. While in line at Movie Gallery a few months ago, the man ahead of me was complaining to the clerk (who also hated "those damn black bars")that there was no pan and scan DVD of Braveheart available. My cousin Conor (the previously mentioned very cool 12 year old) said to me, "Steve, on Braveheart, wouldn't you be missing about half the movie?". This was said, sincerely, in a moderate tone to me only. He wasn't being a wise ass, he just wanted to know. Both the clerk and complaining customer glared at him as if he said he was going to molest their daughters and then turn our town into a communist state.

This is why I'm apprehensive about OAR when broadcast 1.78:1 becomes the norm. For me, I actually love it when watching HDTV and the commercials come on in standard def and the bars appear on the side. It's like being in the theater when the trailers were "flat" so the projectionist brought the curtains in. However, I'm very aware that showmanship like this is as gone as the NYC Roxy Theater, and once again we'll have to deal with those who simply can't understand those black bars. I fear that not only will we only hear the blind man tell Ben-Hur where to find the young rabbi, but for the sake of the new shape screen we'll no longer see the point of the witches hat in The Wizard Of Oz. Or that famous "head squeeze" scene in Gone With The Wind, will we only see Rhett from the bridge of his nose down and Scarlett's face will end at her upper lip? I'm afraid that these kind of abominations will take place if we, the home theater community, ever just take original aspect ratio for granted.

You oughta be very proud of your little cousin, Steve. Kudos!

Thanks Mike, yes I am.

In any case, the whole point of my rather long winded post was that, in the case of DVD, we will always have to guard against those around us who want to "dumb down" the format.

Exactly my point. I don't give a rat's ass that Wal*Mart had demands from its customers for full screen. I am quite certain everyone was buying widescreen editions and managing just fine (with a few grumbles, maybe) because that is what was available until pan and scan editions were brought out in the format. Had they never been introduced, this would not have become an issue, and Joe 6 Pack would have simply had to live with black bars, just as we widescreen aficionados had to live with pan and scan VHS all those years.

And, when full screen WAS brough out on DVD, it was most often on one side of a two-sided disc with a widescreen option. To drop only the widescreen transfers to favor of the lowest common denominator, completely ignoring people who actually have some idea what "artistic intentions" are, is just insufferable. I do not believe I am a snob for thinking that.

That said, during my last trip to Wally World I noticed that for the display of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, the top three tiers were loaded with "fullscreen" versions, and only the bottom with widescreen. I approached two employees who were stocking the shelves and began voicing my dismay. One of the employees said, "The reason there are three times as many fullscreen copies is that people around here love full screen." The other guy said, "I LOVE fullscreen. All of my DVD's are full screen." I asked if he realized he was losing a significant portion of the picture area, and he said, "Yup." This is a guy who is selling DVD's in store. Appalling.

But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Wal*Mart says its customers want fullscreen, and so they do. I am not suggesting the company set out to push one format over the other - it doesn't care what people want, as long as it makes money - but they are definitely responsible in large part for the demand Sony and Disney read as "Widescreen is not as popular." This, despite the fact that sales figures indicate time and time again that widescreen editions outsell fullscreen for (correct me if I'm wrong) every title for which both editions exist. How come this doesn't spill over into Wal*Mart and Sony?

I just don't get it.

Because Wal-Mart is just too big. If you want to stop FS disks, just get WM to stop asking for them.

Glenn

I thought I heard that WalMart controls 40% of the retail market. That's a big slice of the retail market and they could just about demand anything they want from any of the studios.







Crawdaddy

While Wal Mart may prefer fullscreen, in many cases, if they were only offered widescreen, they would take it without complaining. It is only when offered the choice that they go for the fullscreen.

I was in a Wal Mart yesterday, going through the $5.50 bin. They had several titles (mainly Paramount) that were widescreen. These were ones that had never been released fullscreen. But, most of the others were all fullscreen.

Studios should just stop releasing full screen, like Paramount. Wal Mart will still carry the titles.

Heck, what else will they have to show on those widescreen TVs they are now carrying? Why carry those AND fullscreen DVDs?

Have you actually dealt with Wal-Mart's buyers as a distributor?

DJ

The anger that some of you are expressing towards studios and even retailers for offering full screen DVDs is simply mind blowing.

What is so hard to understand regarding the economics involved in this situation - or have we become so elitist that we now expect the studios and retailers to force those buying full screen editions to do as we do?

Is it that difficult to understand that the studios and retailers would like nothing more than to be able to offer just one formatted version of a DVD?

As pointed out by even the conspiracy theorists, these companies are in it for the buck. Yet it costs more for a studio to create both a "widescreen" and a "full screen" edition than if they only had to produce one edition. Even a flipper costs more as you still need to make an additional master and for smaller runs the additional stamping costs are nothing to sneeze at.

For retailers, having to carry both formats leads to all sorts of issues including, accurately estimating how many of each to order to meet demand, allocating shelf space, and of course dealing with the occasional customer that accidentally buys the wrong edition. All of these issues have a serious impact on retailers, as they often require more labor, and can sometimes result in poor customer relations when the edition a customer wants is not available, or when a customer buys the wrong one and blames the store for the mistake. This incidentally ends up costing the studio even more because those discs are usually sent back to the studio for examination. If the disc and case are still in mint condition then they are often repackaged, if not they are destroyed or given away. In all cases, the studios incur the shipping, labor, and replacement costs.

For all those pointing fingers at the studios and retailers... stop for a second. Take a few deep breaths, and then use common sense to try to answer this simple question... "Why would they even want to offer MAR editions?"

The answer should be an obvious one.

And for those who think they know so much more about this business that would lead them to believe the studios could have "forced" the general public into buying only OAR editions, just try and think about your own job and when people unfamiliar with what you do go and second guess your decisions without understanding the facts. If that has happened to you, then maybe you can understand the frustration the studios feel when they get slammed for offering MAR DVDs.

Look, I am a film buff through and through, and go out of my way to be sure I am getting the best possible presentation of all the films I have or want in my collection, and as such I am always disappointed when an OAR edition is unavailable. I also go out of my way to share the benefits of OAR to those that I know buy MAR DVDs.

However, I am also fully aware that the studios more so than anyone else, would love to be able to ONLY offer OAR DVDs. It would not only save them a great deal of money and aggravation, but let us not forget that they do understand the value of OAR, if they did not we would see MAR films in theaters!

The fact is that there is a HUGE demand for MAR editions of DVDs. While OAR editions fortunately account for a larger share of sales, MAR DVDs account for hundreds of millions of dollars in sales each year! As long as the demand is there, it would be ridiculous for the studios and retailers not to meet it.

If you want to make a difference, help diminish the demand by spreading the word to consumers on the benefits of OAR.

If this issue is truly important to you, spend a day at WAL-MART and talk to strangers in the DVD department who have picked out a MAR editions. I have on several occasions while at Best Buy and other electronic retailers, seen someone specifically asking for a full screen DVD title, and introduced myself. I would say that at least 90% of the time the person I talked to was not only receptive to what I said, but ended up buying the “OAR” edition instead.

You can be part of the problem by complaining to those that also would like to offer only “OAR” titles, or you can be part of the solution, and talk to consumers that seek out “MAR” editions and try and share with them the benefits of OAR.


BTW: Just to remind people, especially those new to this thread, the original topic of this thread was about the “theory” that Sony was for some reason discontinuing the OAR editions of several DVD titles in favor of MAR editions. If you believe this to be true I urge you to read my previous posts and then ask yourself what makes the most sense.

I don't pretend to know why MAR only dvds are being provided, but it seems to be at complete odds with your above reasoning. You're saying that the reason that we have MAR instead of OAR only, is because there's a HUGE demand for it. I may disagree with that assessment, but let's assume for the moment it's true. Since there's even a HUGER demand for OAR (based on sales), then by your logic it would be ridiculous of Sony not to meet it. Yet, they are doing exactly that, by providing MAR only dvds, with the OAR unavailable. That I do not understand.

Oh, there may be a perfectly good business reason for it, just like there's a perfectly good business reason for having clothing made in foreign country sweat shops where little kids are abused for pitiful wages, but that doesn't make it a good thing in the larger scope of things.

Then I assume you did not read my earlier posts which directly addressed the business strategy that is likely being used by Sony for these particular titles.

There are two topics on the table that are not entirely related. One is the common practice of limiting supply to create more demand and or more interest in the product. The other is the reasoning behind why MAR titles are being offered in the first place.

I don't think there is a demand for it, just that people don't know the difference, or only bought what was available.

Major retailers like Wal Mart, or non DVD exclusive stores (like drugstores or supermarkets) may stock MAR versions, and this accounts for a lot of the sales. From people who normally wouldn't go to a DVD retailer to buy it and don't know the difference.

But, I would say the majority of titles being released today are released only in OAR format. So, essentially, the studios already are telling the public what they want. They aren't even offering MAR versions of most titles.

Walking up and down the Wal Mart DVD aisle (which I did yesterday) a large part of what they carry is OAR only.

So, with many studios offering only one option, the other studios should catch on.

You are right in that if you do talk to someone about the different, most of the time they WILL go OAR after wanting the full frame most. So, it isn't exactly forcing someone to buy what they don't want.

Sony and a few others just have to stop enabling the non aware public.

Even if there is a huge demand for PoS discs, I think we may assume, whenever someone changes side on this issue, that this someone goes from the "other" side over on "our" side, and practically never the other way.

You know I'm aware that the vast majority of DVD's are OAR. But when you combine this move by Sony with that batch of pan and scan DVD's from Universal a while back (I really wanted Colossus: The Forbin Project in OAR)it just makes me a little uncomfortable.

Well if this is what's going on (and as far as I can tell, that's just as much speculation as any of the other theories), I sure as hell wish someone as Sony would start trying to build up demand for pan & scan discs by limiting the supply (for say 50 or 60 years).

To me it looks like the demand for MAR versions is going down over all. Many a time recently that I have gone into wal-mart looking for a title that has both versions you can find large amounts of MAR still on the shelf and empty spots that had the OAR version. I went to pick up sky captain late in the week it came out and they had no wide versions left but the full version was packed. The clerk said they had restocked the wide version with new shipments but had put out very few replacements for the full version. He said the full version was "barley selling." I wonder how many times stores like wal-mart and target end up sending back hugh amounts of fullscreen that won't move.

No offense, but the data from market research, focus group studies, and sales records have made it abundantly clear that there is a "huge" segment of consumers who want full screen DVDs regardless of what they are told and what is available.

This is not a “bought what was available” issue. In fact, these same market studies have shown that when a consumer has a preference, whether it is for full screen or widescreen, they will usually select a different DVD rather than buy one that is not in their preferred format. You do not really think that over the last few weeks the 7 million people buying the full screen edition of The Incredibles were all forced to now do you? In fact, try to convince the rental industry there is very little demand for full screen editions. Of the +$40 million dollars in revenue generated by rentals of The Incredibles, the full screen edition made more money than the widescreen edition and most if not all the majors offered both so they had a choice.

Even on this forum when a topic gets started regarding full screen and widescreen there is always a few posts that talk about friends or family that even after being told the benefits of OAR they insist on getting the full screen editions whenever possible. In fact, the studios continue to get flack from buyers and retailers for not offering enough full screen editions - which only makes it all the more frustrating for them when they get bashed for not offering enough OAR editions. If it were not for the fact that they are all making a killing off DVD sales I suspect that all the studios would love to say FU everyone and pull the plug on DVD.

Yes, of course I am being facetious but I hope you can now understand the frustration many of the HV execs at all the studios feel when they get bashed by both sides.

Yes, OAR sales are much better than MAR sales, and we film enthusiasts can all be thankful for that, but MAR editions on average still account for more than 25% of total sales when both editions are available which result in hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. In some cases, the MAR editions have sold just as well as the OAR editions.

BTW: the P&S edition of Meet The Fockers was the second highest grossing DVD two weeks ago. It sold more copies than the following:

Ocean's Twelve
House of Flying Daggers
The Incredibles (Widescreen)
Sideways (Widescreen)
Hotel Rwanda
Meet The Parents: Bonus Edition (Widscreen)
Meet The Parent: Bonus Edition (Pan & Scan)
The Incredibles (Pan & Scan)

The widescreen edition of Meet The Fockers naturally was in the top spot.

It does not take a marketing genius with an MBA to realize that there is a viable market for MAR editions, whether we like it or not.

Again, from an enthusiast POV I absolutely 100 percent support OAR and go out of my way to inform consumers the benefits of OAR. However, from a business POV, there is a very large demand for MAR editions. Perhaps disappointing, but true none the less.

Nils,
I agree completely with your point about the consumer demand and all. Trust me, I am about the most ardent capitalist you will ever meet, and if I were a studio and I knew a ton of people wanted MAR DVDs, I would give them to them. As much as I like OAR personally, if I am in business to make money, I am giving the people what they want...if they want chopped up movies, then they would get them.

However, in your above example of Meet The Fockers P&S edition selling so many copies, I kind of doubt that the people who bought the P&S DVD would have NOT bought it if only widescreen were discs were avaialable. I mean, these people bought the title in its first couple weeks of release. They probably saw an endcap at Wal-Mart or even the grocery store. I think that if only OAR were available, those people still would have purcahsed it. Just my thinking on the matter though.

Either way, the act of removing existing widescreen transfers, etc is disturbing and disappointing and I am VERY worried about the effect on older films once 1.78:1 is the standard for most people. I would hate to see Wizard of Oz, etc chopped up to fit a widescreen set. Fortunately though, I would bet that most fans of older films (films most likely to be in Academy ratio or whatever) are more keen to OAR, therefore, maybe it will not be as big of a problem for those films. But what about 2:35:1 and other "wider" aspect ratios? I can easily see them being compromised to 1:78. I hope not, but I think it will happen - it already has in some cases.

All of the Wal-Mart stores I've been to in the last few years have made an good effort to provide both fullscreen and widescreen... in fact, better in the last year. Both The Incredibles and Sky Captain were availible with the exclusive Wal-Mart freebies on both formats, for example.

However, dual format releases from Universal are usually fullscreen-only (Schindler's List, Scarface: SE, Animal House: Double Secret Probation Edition). Columbia's bare-bones fullscreen releases crowd up the bargain bin (Last Action Hero, Annie).

Nils,

By citing THE INCREDIBLES and MEET THE FOCKERS you are kind of proving what I was saying. Those are selling so much because they are being sold in non-standard DVD markets. Drugstores and Grocery stores are selling the MAR versions at the checkout counter. People (who probably wouldn't have gone out to say Best Buy or somewhere to buy it right away) are picking it up, just like they would pick up a People magazine or pack of gum.

As mentioned, the same people probably would have bought it if it was only released OAR.

Sorry, pipe dream. Won't make a real difference.

Many of those huge sales for MAR versions you quote were probably not even a conscious choice at all -- lots of those Wal-Mart shopping moms just grab a DVD off the shelf and throw it in the cart. It may be OAR, it may be MAR. They don't even know. I've seen it happen with my own eyes - they'll have a widescreen version of one title in their hand (when a MAR also exists) but a MAR copy of another (when an OAR exists).

I cringe every time I go over to my brother's house and look at the stack of DVDs - some are OAR, some MAR. No rhyme or reason to it. His wife makes the DVD purchases. They are not OAR-enlightened. (I tried -- they don't appreciate the difference. If anything they don't like the black bars because they have a large RPTV, but it's 4:3.)

It's still my opinion that the studios would be making just as much profit if they released OAR only on every title. People would get over it in a hurry and buy the movies they want without worrying about it. Problem solved. Forget market research. Costs would be lower and profits would actually improve. But, as you point out what do I know about their business? I'm just a consumer trying to use common sense.

I have no idea why Sony is doing this. But as to the theory that they are pulling the OAR versions off the discs to create demand, maybe so, but I guess I don't see the logic. If there is a preference for MAR, then why aren't they pulling the MAR versions to create demand, so they can exploit it with a new fullscreen SE version later?

None of what we argue here will make one bit of difference. You'll never convince enough consumers to demand OAR, and now that MAR is entrenched you'll never get studios to stop doing it - it will simply shift a "fill the 4:3" screen problem to a "fill the 16:9 screen" problem. The best we can fight for is that for MAR releases they make an OAR version available too. That appeal must be made to the studios who make the product.

Jon,

I think you are missing a in your post. You are not really seriously suggesting that a few select grocery stores and drugstores come even close to the sales figures of DVDs than WAL-MART, B&B, Fry's, Costco, Amazon, DDD, etc...

Come on. WAL-MART alone sells nearly 40% of all DVDs! Together these guys account for over 90% of all DVD sales.

Oh, and BTW, most of the national grocery chains order both full screen & widescreen copies, as does Walgreens. You are seriously running out of room if you are going to suggest that a store that accounts for less than 1% of DVD sales is selling all the millions of full screen editions that are sold each year – and doing it successfully because their customers have no choice....

If so let me know there name and so I can consider investing with them, as any retailer doing those kind of sales must be raking in the profits!

I guess maybe you made my point even more clear.

Glen,

Let me tell you about this river in Egypt...

DVDs are a multi-billion dollar industry. Millions of dollars have been spent and continue to be spent on market research. You can try to second-guess their decision-making based on your own personal enthusiasm, but theirs is primarily based on very sound and extensive market research.

People are in a grocery store or a drug store at least once a week. Sometimes several times a week. They don't go to specialty DVD stores, or even Wal Mart, as often (although for people on this forum, it is probably the other way around).

So, the average person, who doesn't know OAR from MAR, picks it up on the shelf. This accounts for a large part of the full screen sales. If you were to add up all the CVS, Walgreens, and grocery store chains, I would bet they contribute to quite a bit of the amount of full screen sales.

In my local grocery store circular they even advertise "Full Screen Edition" of certain DVDs. They don't offer a choice.