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NEW BEN HUR - original sound? - Page 4

post #91 of 161
5/12/05 at 11:35am
Hi David, I know it's easy technically, just how you described, the problem comes when people say "why are the surrounds mono", "why does the dialogue bounce from one side of the screen to the other", "why is there little, if any lfe" - all complaints that reviewers have said in the past when reviewing classic sound mixes on stereo films of the 50's/60's!

Hence the complaints and hence why they probably remixed in the first place! Not that I agree with any of the above...

M
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post #92 of 161
5/12/05 at 12:25pm
That's why they can provide both soundtracks. With Dolby Digital compression there's very little bit-space required for a second 5.1 bitstream. Just because WB doesn't do something as a rule isn't an excuse for improper disc mastering. They don't 16x9-encode their 1.66:1 titles either...that doesn't make it ok...it makes them WRONG (for all the things that WB does right, they do just a few things wrong but they do them wrong almost all the time...lack of 16x9 for 1.66:1 and lack of original audio presentation/mixes are the two worst offenders)

Besides, it's not like the remixed BenHur was winning any awards...surround was pretty low-key, but they did get rid of directional dialog and historic music/effects. And that's BAD!

Put the origianl on there as an option...even if the new 5.1 mix defaults upon playback.

Quote:
all complaints that reviewers have said in the past when reviewing classic sound mixes on stereo films of the 50's/60's!

Sad but true. The ignorance of many DVD reviewers is shockingly destructive to the format at times. A DVD-file reviewer criticized the soundtrack on the Sound of Music for having "distracting" panning-dialogue...and even after I emailed him to help educate him that this was the historic mix he arrogantly refused to accept that the audio had been properly presented on the DVD...the same mentality that demands that mono mixes be remixed to 5.1, all hiss/high-frequencies removed and all film-grain digitally air-brushed away.
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post #93 of 161
5/12/05 at 12:57pm
They sure can provide both soundtracks original and remix and should, they should also 16x9 1.66 material....if only

M
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post #94 of 161
5/12/05 at 2:29pm
The extra front channels can be perfectly represented our home-format's front three...tracks that went "between" them just get mixed as phantom between the front L/C and the front C/R. Easy (really, there's nothing to this at all...)


Not only easy, but it of course was already done, for the 35mm 4-track magnetic (mag/optic)prints used for general release.
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post #95 of 161
5/12/05 at 2:37pm
anybody reading this have any clout with the audio guys at WB? What a small thing to ask...what an enourmous increase in value to the DVD presentation...

The irony...we get an entire *silent film* version of the original movie but can't even get the historic and awardwinning sound-mix to the feature film?

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post #96 of 161
5/12/05 at 3:04pm
You know, since the film is going to be split onto two DVD-9's anyways, putting two surround mixes would be a cool idea.

Have a 4.0 track based on the theatrical mix, then the 5.1 remix. Make the French and Spanish tracks just 2.0 surround.

In fact, the first part of Ben-Hur runs only 2 hours (plus 6 minutes of overture intermission music). The second part runs an hour and a quarter. Plenty of room for multiple tracks!

I love directional sound!
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post #97 of 161
5/13/05 at 6:44am
I also enjoy hearing the original directional dialogue.
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post #98 of 161
5/13/05 at 6:51am
Thread Starter 
The remix does have directional dialouge. On my system I can play each track individually and when I play the right and left channels only (leaving out the middle you can hear the dialouge bounce in and out of those channels.
Oddly, most of the new surrounds are mono. Almost the entire music score is onthe surround track by itself.
the original Ben Hur had almost no surrounds at all - not during the battle scene, not during the chariot race.
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post #99 of 161
5/25/05 at 12:43am
Full specs on that Ben-Hur 4 disc CE at DVD Times here.

Disc One & Two: The Movie

Newly Remastered and Restored from Original 65mm Film Elements
Dolby Digital 5.1 Audio
Commentary by Film Historian T. Gene Hatcher with Scene Specific Comments from Charlton Heston
Music-Only Track Showcasing Miklos Rozsa’s Score
Screen Tests
Vintage Newsreels Gallery
Highlights from the 1960 Academy Awards Ceremony
Theatrical Trailer Gallery

Disc Three: The 1925 Silent Version

The Thames Television Restoration with Stereophonic Orchestral Score by Composer Carl Davis

Disc Four: About the Movies

New Documentary: Ben-Hur: The Epic That Changed Cinema - Current filmmakers such as Ridley Scott and George Lucas reflect on the importance and influence of the film
1994 Documentary: Ben-Hur: The Making of an Epic Hosted by Christopher Plummer
Directed by William Wyler – 1986 Emmy Award® -nominated documentary featuring the last interview with Wyler before his death
Ben-Hur: A Journey Through Pictures - New audiovisual recreation of the film via stills, storyboards, sketches, music and dialogue
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post #100 of 161
5/25/05 at 2:16am
Looks like a lovely set, but ... I wonder if the silent version will be a PAL to NTSC transfer ... ?
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post #101 of 161
5/25/05 at 3:59am
oooh those extras look very nice indeed, new documentaries, music only track, the 1925 silent, and best of all Newly Remastered and Restored from Original 65mm Film Elements. Can't wait! Thanks for the info John.
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post #102 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:22am
Still dreaming that there's a chance that the "5.1" auido track represents the original multi-channel mix...

*sigh*....
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post #103 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:28am
I wonder if it's worth keeping the current disc just for the sake of comparison when the new one arrives (and I WILL get it). Or just leave the job to Gary at dvdbeaver. . . .
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post #104 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:47am
I find the remixes from Warners to be quite pleasing. When they go back to the original and separate music, effects and dialog tracks, the sonics are considerably better. There's definitely much wider frequency range compared to the PCM tracks mixed down from the original 4 track CinemaScope mixes of the 1950's found on laserdiscs. Compare the previous sound of Love Me Or Leave Me to the recent one found in the Doris Day set, for example. The DVD blows it away. Same for Seven Brides For Seven Brothers.

I think if the remix is faithful to the artist's intent, it is far preferable than reverting back to the original archival 4 or 6 track mix.
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post #105 of 161
5/25/05 at 7:02am
Quote:
There's definitely much wider frequency range compared to the PCM tracks mixed down from the original 4 track CinemaScope mixes of the 1950's found on laserdiscs.
For the specific case of Ben-Hur. The laserdisc 2.0 PCM track on the CLV edition without the DD 5.1/AC-3 track had a tremendous frequency response. It is one of two laserdiscs I have kept solely because of the audio being far superior to any other edition I have heard. (The other one is the "Ten Commandments" edition that Joe Caps worked on. "Oliver!" would have been a third, but laser rot intervened.)

That being said, the DD5.1 mix for the Ben-Hur DVD was a lot better than the previous DD5.1 mix from laserdisc.

Regards,
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post #106 of 161
5/25/05 at 7:02am
I assume the comments from Charlton Heston will be the same as on the current release.
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post #107 of 161
5/25/05 at 7:07am
Quote:
I think if the remix is faithful to the artist's intent, it is far preferable than reverting back to the original archival 4 or 6 track mix.

That's a pretty hefty statement...and I don't think most purists would agree. But given that DVD can easily contain two full-fledged 5.1 mixes...why not simply offer BOTH to the collector? That way no subjective decision to select one needs to take place and nothing is lost. WIN-WIN.
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post #108 of 161
5/25/05 at 8:14am
Quote:
I wonder if it's worth keeping the current disc just for the sake of comparison when the new one arrives (and I WILL get it). Or just leave the job to Gary at dvdbeaver. . . .

Well, you're only going to get about $9 for it used, so it's probably not worth re-selling unless you need it that bad.
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post #109 of 161
5/25/05 at 11:03am
Both www.dvdtimes.co.uk and www.dvdanswers.com have complete specs up!

Warner Home Video have announced the Region 1 DVD release of Ben-Hur (Four-Disc Collector's Edition) for 13th September 2005 priced at $39.92 SRP. William Wyler’s epic masterpiece has been newly remastered from the original 65mm film elements. The DVD now boasts more than 10 hours of bonus features including an all-new documentary on the film’s influence with leading filmmakers including Ridley Scott (Kingdom of Heaven, Gladiator) and George Lucas (Star Wars films), a making-of documentary hosted by Christopher Plummer, scene specific commentary by Charlton Heston, rare screen tests, a reproduction of the original theatrical souvenir program, plus the 1925 silent version of the film with musical score by Carl Davis.

DVD Special Features Include:

Disc One & Two: The Movie
# Newly Remastered and Restored from Original 65mm Film Elements
# Dolby Digital 5.1 Audio
# Commentary by Film Historian T. Gene Hatcher with Scene Specific Comments from Charlton Heston
# Music-Only Track Showcasing Miklos Rozsa’s Score
# Screen Tests
# Vintage Newsreels Gallery
# Highlights from the 1960 Academy Awards Ceremony
# Theatrical Trailer Gallery

Disc Three: The 1925 Silent Version
# The Thames Television Restoration with Stereophonic Orchestral Score by Composer Carl Davis

Disc Four: About the Movies
# New Documentary: Ben-Hur: The Epic That Changed Cinema - Current filmmakers such as Ridley Scott and George Lucas reflect on the importance and influence of the film
# 1994 Documentary: Ben-Hur: The Making of an Epic Hosted by Christopher Plummer
# Directed by William Wyler – 1986 Emmy Award® -nominated documentary featuring the last interview with Wyler before his death
# Ben-Hur: A Journey Through Pictures - New audiovisual recreation of the film via stills, storyboards, sketches, music and dialogue

Can you say "DVD of the year"?
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post #110 of 161
5/25/05 at 11:48am
Quote:
Here's the first shot of the new 4-disc set cover
So the chariot race's taking place on grass now?

Quote:
Disc Three: The 1925 Silent Version # The Thames Television Restoration with Stereophonic Orchestral Score by Composer Carl Davis
Is there any reason why they can't put the original soundtrack for this movie on the DVD? People here complain about remixing the 1959 version, but no one have any problems with the soundtrack of the 1925 version being completely replaced.
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post #111 of 161
5/25/05 at 11:51am
There probably isn't an original score foe the 1925 version. Most silent films didn't have scores composed for them.
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post #112 of 161
5/25/05 at 12:20pm
From IMDB:
Original Music by
William Axt(1925 score)
Maurice Baron
Carl Davis(new score: 1987)
David Mendoza(1925 score)


They say there's one.
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post #113 of 161
5/25/05 at 12:43pm
Hey, we all know how impossible it is to include two soundtracks to a film...I mean...we can't really expect WB to have provided the *original* score along side the new one...

Not even Disney does that!

Wait a minute...actually Disney *does* do that...on all their classic titles...
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post #114 of 161
5/25/05 at 4:41pm
wow I am gobsmacked about seing the Silent version for the first time.

Superb news John

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post #115 of 161
5/25/05 at 5:32pm
Quote:
given that DVD can easily contain two full-fledged 5.1 mixes...why not simply offer BOTH to the collector? That way no subjective decision to select one needs to take place and nothing is lost. WIN-WIN.


Sounds good to me.
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post #116 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:20pm
Well, you're taking for granted that Warner would be able to attach the Axt score to the film. The 1931 re-release was sonorized, but that score wouldn't fit the restored version since it was meant for 24fps. They'd probably have to re-edit and re-mix it to fit, not unlike the Milestone Films release of Phantom of the Opera.

Also, why should Warner spend money on a new recording (which would probably be needed) when they have a full orchestral score already recorded by one of the greatest silent film composers? If they DID comission it, there's no way they'd shell out money for a full orchestra, so we'd likely hear a standard piano/organ/synth version.
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post #117 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Hey, we all know how impossible it is to include two soundtracks to a film...I mean...we can't really expect WB to have provided the *original* score along side the new one...

Not even Disney does that!

Wait a minute...actually Disney *does* do that...on all their classic titles...


As far as the silent BEN-HUR goes, it would not be possible to include the score prepared for the 1930 sound re-issue (which consisted of the Axt/Mendoza themes) and the 1986 Carl Davis score on the same disc.

The reason for this is film speeds. The 1930 reissue score was recorded at 24 fps. The 1925 version as restored by Kevin Brownlow & David Gill, and scored by Davis, used variable speeds. When the silent BEN-HUR was filmed, film speed hadn't yet been stabilized and varied from (I believe) 20-24 fps. Parts of the silent BEN-HUR might have even been hand-cranked, although I am certainly not sure of this.

Having both scores would be nice in an ideal world, but would require a whole extra disc and a whole different transfer at a constant 24fps. Obviously this would not be practical or financially justifiable.

The previous VHS and LD releases of the Brownlow & Gill restoration with the Davis score were welcomed by silent film enthusiasts, as I assume this DVD release will be.
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post #118 of 161
5/25/05 at 6:49pm
So there was no music at all for it during its original 1925 release?
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post #119 of 161
5/25/05 at 7:50pm
So there was no music at all for it during its original 1925 release?

From what I've read before about this film, the film was originally shown with and sometimes, without music.






Crawdaddy
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post #120 of 161
5/25/05 at 8:11pm
In the original release, there's a 99.99% chance that any showing would be presented with music. This would range from full orchestra (the best city movie palaces) to organ or piano for smaller houses.

The only film I've even heard about being "meant" without music is The Passion of Joan of Arc, which doesn't even seem likely.

By the way, the 1931 track is not only meant for 24fps (and possibly a trimmed cut), but it has sound effects. You can see a short clip of this very cheesy version in the "Making of an Epic" documentary. Also, a few clips (perhaps in a Criterion-style comparison not unlike those for "M" and The Passion of Joan of Arc) would make a good bonus feature. Other than that, who would want to watch it all the way through?
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