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Question on video upconversion for LaserDisc... - Page 2

post #31 of 73
4/8/05 at 7:22am
I think the only USA Elite model with a 3D filter was the CLD-99, and the Snell & Wilcox pattern on the Video Essentials LD that I use to test LD performance would have revealed something like that. Perhaps one of the DVL machines?
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post #32 of 73
4/8/05 at 8:38am
Phil, later versions of the LD-S2 had a 3-D comb filter. I'd bet that the LD-S2 is the player with the design flaw and it's stille a darn good player. They made the LD-S2 for about 10 years and the design evolved some.

From LD discusions over at AVS, I seem to recall that both the CLD's 95 & 97 recombine the chroma and luma to make the composite output. Some folks said that diminished the composite output but the composite output of this pair is stille much better than the latter CLD's 79/99. I'd take a 95/97 over a 79/99 any day of the week, all eight.
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post #33 of 73
4/8/05 at 8:52am
Quote:
Phil, later versions of the LD-S2 had a 3-D comb filter.
But they are not USA Elite players.
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post #34 of 73
4/8/05 at 9:05am
Phil, the LD-S2 was the top-of-the-line Elite player from about 1987-97. The Japanese equivalent is the LD-X2.
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post #35 of 73
4/11/05 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Does the CLD-79 also fall into this category?
Quote:
I believe it does, as does the very similar CLD-D704. Any player with separate Y and C noise reduction works this way.


Phillip, AFAIK, the CLD-59 has the same comb filter (3 line digital) as the 79 and 704. So, would I be too far off base to suggest that the 59 also does this (and that my percieved PQ improvement by using composite is imagined)?
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post #36 of 73
4/11/05 at 10:50am
Derek, I think the 59's conb filter is 2-line. It's not as good as the 79/704's.
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post #37 of 73
4/11/05 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Rachael,

According to a comparison grid published by Pioneer, the 59 does indeed have a 3-line (is that a misprint)? I am bidding on a CLD-79 right now at a fantastic price, and the 59 will become a backup player (or dedicated CD player, as it's audio section is fantastic - depends on how well the 79 compares).
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post #38 of 73
4/11/05 at 11:21am
Derek, it proably isn't a misprint, but the 79's is better. I've owned both. I stille have a 59 but it's on extended loan to my mom as of late. Neither's comb filter is too important these a dayz. You're gonna use composite out of both of these players in nearly all situations, or should...
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post #39 of 73
4/11/05 at 1:34pm
What Rachael said. Comb filter quality is largely irrelevant these days. The 59/606 didn't have the noise reduction that the 79/704 had. I don't know about comb filters, it doesn't really matter unless you're using an old NTSC set.
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post #40 of 73
4/11/05 at 1:36pm
Or a Philips display.. Really poor 3 line comb filters.
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post #41 of 73
4/19/05 at 7:16am
Thread Starter 
Ah, well.....

I was outbid on both the CLD-79 and CLD-99 I had my eye on, so I guess it's back to the ol' CLD-59 (but I am watching ebay regularly). Based on what you all have said, I think I am approaching 51db N/R anyway (using the Mitsu's comb filter), but I'm sure another 79 or 99 will come along eventually... Thanx, all!
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post #42 of 73
4/19/05 at 8:39am
I never win any bids on Ebay.. I usually try for "Buy Now" items anymore.
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post #43 of 73
4/19/05 at 11:31am
Whatever you do, just stay away from the DVL-909 combo player. It has DVNR that is always on and cannot be defeated (well, perhaps there is a circut that can be physically snipped inside, but barring that, forget it!).

Also, a question for owners of 704/79s: Did yours have that terrible light-streaking problem (documented heavily at AVSForums)? My 704 had it and I eventually had to get rid of it as no one could identify the cause of the problem. Now I use a CLD-59, which everyone tells me is a step down from the 704, but looks better to my eyes without that bug.

-Lyle J.P.
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post #44 of 73
4/19/05 at 12:00pm
Thread Starter 
Will do, Lyle!

I have heard that the 909 is a case of "multitaskitis"; it can do several things, but since it is not dedicated to any of them, it does a mediocre job at each...
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post #45 of 73
4/19/05 at 12:14pm
Lyle,I have a 704 LD player. It looks great, especially on my Sony 36" XBR. I don't use it much these days but i am unaware of any light-streaking. I always hated the cross talk on older, and cheaper players, and color noise can be a problem, but the Sony TV makes up for most of that. The 704 has served my well for almost 10 years now. Quick, find some wood for me to knock.
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post #46 of 73
4/19/05 at 12:42pm
Lyle, I think the whole Streakin' thang is overblown, kind'a like a witch trial. Somebody sees one and suddenly all of everybody thinks they do too. I've listened to and participated in some of those AVS discusions. I've no doubt that some players work less well with some displays and that some players didn't get calibrated at the factory as well as some others did.

Over on AVS I think I've witnessed folks blame the format's weaknesses on the streak issue. I heard folks blame the streak for messy looking credits instead of titling machines that produce noise on fade-in's and out's. I've no doubt that some players aren't quite calibrated purr-fectly, but the whole issue almost got hysterical at AVS, IMO.

I've had all these players along the way and stille do in some cases. I'm not a big believer in the streak issue, obviously. If the 704 is prone to it, so would a 59. They do share alot of common parts. Maybe this 704 needs refurbishing? It should win. That's how I see it...
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post #47 of 73
4/19/05 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Lyle, I think the whole Streakin' thang is overblown, kind'a like a witch trial. Somebody sees one and suddenly all of everybody thinks they do too.


I wish you were right Rachael, but you're not. I had a 704 which had very bad, very obvious horizontal streaking. It's not a "mass halucination" thing. It was a real defect in my player, that many others had, too.

Quote:
If the 704 is prone to it, so would a 59. They do share alot of common parts. Maybe this 704 needs refurbishing?


I sent my 704 to Pioneer Long Beach twice to address the issue. The first time I sent it in they told me the player was "within spec" and that nothing was wrong with it. The second time I sent it in with a laserdisc and a printed, detailed description of exactly what the problem was and exactly where on the laserdisc the problem could best be seen. I think they gave it a routine cleaning and sent it back to me. Again, the problem had not been addressed.

My 59 has never shown the same streaking. I've been very happy with it.

-Lyle J.P.
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post #48 of 73
4/19/05 at 1:18pm
Lyle, I didn't say I didn't believe in it at all. I think more folks think they have it than actually do have it. Your 704 must be lemon-y? Sorry! The only Pioneer I ever had that was a lemon was a cheap CLD-980.

From the group of players that could be afflicted with this, I've had the LD-S9, CLD-99, CLD-D703, CLD-79, and two CLD-59's. I haven't experienced it, I don't believe.

One theory I developed about the streaking thang during the AVS discusions was that as production shifted away from LD player production, that the technicans got worse at making LD players when they did make them. Hey, it's just a theory.

Have you ever chatted with Kurtis, the LD repair guru, about your 704? He used to pop up at AVS quite a bit? He believes in it and so do I. I just don't think it's as prevalent as some folks do, or somethin' along those lines.
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post #49 of 73
4/19/05 at 3:00pm
I must say that I haven't noticed any such thing with my 704. Now, poor low-frequency response elsewhere in the reproducing chain will cause bright streaks, as will poor mastering practices, but my unit at least works pretty well. I have been told that the aforementioned Kurtis Bahr can adjust LDPs to perform much better than average, although I don't know if his services would correct a "streaking" problem, and I may try to get him to adjust my 704 one of these days just to get the best possible quality from it.
Everything I have heard about this "streaking" phenomenon leads me to believe it originates from a faulty adjustment in the TBC ADC circuit, too low of an upper limit on the sampling voltage or too high of a clip threshold, leading to saturation of the sample-and-hold circuit in the presence of overmodulation. Something like that could probably be corrected by adjusting a couple of pots, though it might actually require replacement of the ADC.
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post #50 of 73
4/19/05 at 3:03pm
I have an Elite CLD 79 that has it. I think how your TV is calibrated depends on how much you notice it. I use a Pioneer Elite HDTV and I never noticed the streaking at all with it. Then I bought an HLD-X9 and hooked up both players to the TV, and played the Star Wars "faces" ld. In the opening shoot with the star destroyer, I could now easily see the streaking on the 79 because the X9 didn't have it at all. My 79 was purchased brand new, and has maybe 30 hours of use on it.
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post #51 of 73
4/20/05 at 12:34pm
Christopher, Kurtis specializes in 97's. He'd proably offer you one. Maybe you should take it? He disconnects the 97's now obsolete Noise Reduction system and custom adjusts them. He does work on all models but the 97 is his passion. I don't think he's discovered any earth-shaking mod's for other models...?

When my HLD-X9 needs service eventually. I'll send it to him if he's stille in biz. He's dabbled with them too these last couple of years. I think he owns one now or did during some chat, some months back. Just speaking of Kurtis renews my desire to own a 97! You should hook up with him sometime... Best wishes!
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post #52 of 73
4/20/05 at 12:52pm
Greg, when we discussed the streak issue, many folks said it was better or worse with one brand of TV or another. Panasonic was frequently cited as a tube set that didn't seem to like like Pioneers. Some Sony RP sets were slandered. On the other hand, Sony tubes are a great partner with Pioneers. Possibly the best LD image I've seen is an X9 into a Sony XBR 250 32"? So, I can attest to this, myself. With some of the folks in these discussions, these issues got mixed in, IMO. One person said it was worst during credits, which, IMO, said they're mistaking the noise of the titling machine for the streak issue, or compounding the two...?

I'm not technically astute to understand the streak issue. If I'd had it, I'm sure I'd know somethin' wasn't right! If you play your 79 into a good tube set, preferably a Sony XBR, is streaking an issue? Or, just with your RP set/s? Que?
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post #53 of 73
4/20/05 at 1:31pm
I wish I could say that owning a great TV is the solution to the streaking problem, but it's not. When I had the issue with my 704, my primary TV was a 32" Sony XBR. It was, and still is, the finest tube TV I've ever owned. I can't remember the exact model number off the top of my head, but it was the last XBR made before the flat screen Wegas came out (in other words, the last 32" XBR with the "cylindrical" screen).

According to your post, Rachael, this should be the best possible set to minimize the streaking, but unfortunately the streaking was very obvious on this TV.

BTW, that Sony XBR is now part of my bedroom setup (which I jokingly refer to as "Theater #2"). It's paired with a CLD-D503 (with AC-3 mod) and a Sony DVP-S3000, a 1st generation wonder that still puts out a better interlaced picture than any other sub-$1,000 DVD player I've ever seen.

-Lyle J.P.
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post #54 of 73
4/20/05 at 10:58pm
Lyle, you truly got a lemon player apparently! Did you have an XBR 100 with the outboard switch-box? ...or the older XBR 96? It's a damn shame you've never had a great player, that bleeding worked right, to go with that stuff. The 59 is a great player compared to older players but your other stuff was/is begging, maybe not , for a better player.

I got a totally lemon Sony MDP-333 myself. It lasted about 2 weeks longer than the 1 year warranty. The main board went out and the laser assembly went bezerk and it dug a trench in an X-Files LD. I got the bleeder on sale and thought I got a good deal till I used it at home for a few weeks. I was almost relieved at it's demise but P'd about the LD. I had a good excuse to aqquire a CLD-D703, and did. This was about '94 or '95.

Yeah, I like your Sony 3000. I had one. I gave it to my brother, who was going through a divorce, when I got a 7700.... Best wishes!
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post #55 of 73
4/21/05 at 8:20am
Augh, if I'm going to upgrade from the 704 it's going to be to a MUSE machine, preferably the X9 [mind you, the X0 is supposed to have certain points of superiority, but the convenience features of the '9 earn it points in my book]. The improvement from anything less than a HiVision player just is not worth the cost or aggravation, for me.

By the way: I want to know if an outboard LD+G decoder will sync up if inserted in the Y feed line from a MUSE decoder. Obviously, there would be no real purpose for this except if you wanted to watch Stargate in High Definition with English subtitles, and even that would require not only a second LDP but also a monitor to ensure that the two presentations kept in step [although there is nothing stopping a person from writing the Redbook track with all subcodes to CD, I guess]; but the question of whether the two systems are intercompatible interests me. Has anyone tried it?
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post #56 of 73
4/21/05 at 2:04pm
Christopher, I'd think twice about buying an HLD-X0. Some of the folks I know who have them have had alot of breakdowns with them. They're harder to work on than the other models too, apparently. They seem like overkill for anything but Muse. If I had more Muse discs, I suppose I'd covet one...

As far as your subtitle thing-y, wouldn't you be running out of real estate for a second set of subtitles?
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post #57 of 73
4/21/05 at 3:37pm
Well, LD+G is supposed to be flexible enough when working in NTSC to adjust position &c. [which is why I suspect the decoder might work with the 1125i feed in the first place -- or in fact, for those who use a line doubler, 525p], so if it worked at all I would expect to be able to lay the English subs -- as I understand all LD+G releases have an English sub track and a Japanese sub track -- over the pre-existing superfluous Japanese text.

And yes, I would expect to get better results using the outboard LD+G decoder, which only works with composite as I understand, in the Y line of upscaled video rather than in the feed line into the scaler.

I had not heard about reliability problems with the X0. I can believe it would be harder to repair, though, different as I understand it is from other models.
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post #58 of 73
4/21/05 at 7:25pm
Wow I hate to lower the bar on players but I have an old Pioneer 502 and hooked up to my new Mits 55" via S-vid the picture is ok, but very soft and interlaced looking. Is there a lower priced unit by Pioneer that will smoke this one on picture quality?

GB
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post #59 of 73
4/21/05 at 7:56pm
Christopher, am I misunderstanding or are you a'thinkin' that Muse suppourts LD+G? It doesn't. The sub's are burned-in, apparently, by order of the MPAA. So, you can't get the old sub's out of the way...or can you? Brian, who's always looking for Hi-Vision LD's once had some Muse test pressings without sub's. I have none myself.

I think I see what you're thinkin, insert only the codes with the other signal, maybe? Seems like it might make the whole signal go wacko. If it worked, you'd have to put the sub's on a plaque to cover the old ones, like LD-G does to impose English over Japanese, sometimes. I have a few Japanese LD's where LD-G actually works the way it should, one setting has no sub's. Apparently, the MPAA was always on them to burn-in sub's.

It all seems a sub-mess.


P.S. - 99.5% of laser techs have never seen an X0. There's a guy in Paris, France that fixes them. I know a guy who takes his there. I've never heard or don't recall anybody who works on them in the U.S. I asked Kurtis one time if he'd seen one and I think he was negatory...? I doubt they ever made more than a few thousand of them. Most of 'em are proably floatin' 'round Nippon and Hong Kong, proably...? Hey, the X9 is almost too good for LD media and the X0 sure as hell must be. A guy with one on AVS once told me that there just wasn't enough worthy media for the machine. He's got a point!
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post #60 of 73
4/21/05 at 8:06pm
Bud, hook the player up with composite video also. Put a disc on an A-B repeat mode and I'm willing to betthat the pic will be better via composite. I'll go so far as suggest that you duct-tape over the S-video jack on that 502.

There's better players for sure. Every increment of performance you could grab will help with your big TV, no doubt. For LD use composite video unless you've got one of the super players, absolutemente, si?
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