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Lutron Spacer Installation 101 (Rev. 1/17/06 - Adding IR Emitters) - Page 2

post #31 of 97
11/8/04 at 8:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I was going to go with X10 but have heard it's unreliable.

You heard right. X10 is based on relatively weak signals being transmitted along your electrical line. All you need is one noisy appliance and that signal will get lost. Or if you are trying to control things on two different phases it becomes problematic and you have to bridge the two blah blah blah. X10 is great for really basic stuff but it has limitations.
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post #32 of 97
11/8/04 at 9:44pm
Jay, much appreciated for your help.
The problem I run into right now is that I am planning for 17 light fixtures, which includes 2 strings (one is 50 feet and one is 14 feet) of line voltage rope lights. The electical code in Alberta only allows 12 outlets (combination of light fixtures and receptacles) per breaker. Although my total wattage consumption is about 1100W but the problem is I am way over with the allowed outlets. If I can feed the 4 zones with two circuit breakers from the main panel then I should be OK to go. The problem with GE is it only allow 1 circuit breaker per GE box (Please correct me if I am wrong on this).

Thanks
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post #33 of 97
11/8/04 at 11:53pm
What is GE?
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post #34 of 97
11/9/04 at 5:41am
Thread Starter 
Ken

I'm a bit confused also - this is the Lutron Spacer product. You should approach your local lighting expert and ask what is possible. It may require a transition to GRAFIK Eye. Check Lutron's site for local dealers.

Are you in Calgary? Smart Home Theater Systems are pretty knowledgable. Maybe they can offer some advice. I don't see how different breakers will make a difference however.
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post #35 of 97
11/9/04 at 10:09am
Ken-
Do you want all 17 fixtures to have their own light switch? That seems overkill to me. Maybe put all the wall sconces on one switch, the overhead lights on another, some accent lights on a third, one of your rope lights on a forth, and the other on the fifth. Although you will need to double check, I am willing to bet the code is outlets or lightswitches, not the individual fixtures.
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post #36 of 97
11/9/04 at 10:19am
Quote:
What is GE?

I imagine it is GRAFIX Eye, another Lutron system.
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post #37 of 97
11/9/04 at 8:54pm
Adam, you are correct. That is what I intended to do.
Zone 1 - 4 sconces
Zone 2 - 4 pot lights with the rope lights under the stage lid.
Zone 3 - 7 pot lights for the seating area. These pot lights also lit up the center part of the HT.
Zone 4 - 3 strings of rope lights (hot wired, i.e. no receptacles)

Now Since GE Control can only receive 1 live wire(power source, either a 15A or 20A)from the main breaker box therefore this one power source wire will feed all the lighting fixtures in all four zones, Right?
(1 circuit breaker --> GE --> Zone 1, 2, 3 and 4.)
Do you think I have the right concept?

Jay,
do you think this will work if I decide to go with the Spacer System?
1st circuit breaker supplies power to Zone 1 (lights and Zone #1 Spacer Dimmer and Zone 2 (lights and Zone #2 Spacer Dimmer).
2nd circuit breaker will supply both Zone 3 (lights and Zone #3 Spacer Dimmer) and Zone 4 (lights and Zone #4 Spacer Dimmer). Then this circuit breaker also supply power to the RWMC. Of course I need two travellers from the RWMC to the Spacer Dimmers.

Thanks in advance
Ken

Thanks in advance
Ken
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post #38 of 97
11/9/04 at 9:44pm
I think you have the right concept on both counts.
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post #39 of 97
11/9/04 at 9:47pm
Adam, thanks for helping me to clear this up.
I just have couple more 2x4s to put together then it's the wiring stage.

Ken
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post #40 of 97
11/9/04 at 10:00pm
Very cool. Would love to see some pics if you have them!
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post #41 of 97
11/10/04 at 4:32pm
Adam, I hope Santa will give me a digital camera for Christmas.
Seriously, I don't have a camera yet. Once I have a camera for sure I will post some pictures.
Ken
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post #42 of 97
11/10/04 at 4:46pm
Thread Starter 
The breakers don't matter for zone independence. It's the lines that run from the switch(es) they're connected to. I have five zones, five switches, but a single THEATER LIGHTS breaker. One power into the box, five neutrals from the individual zones. Remember, there's nothing special about the Spacer dimmers other than that they can be remote controlled. They are connected and function otherwise like any other dimmer.
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post #43 of 97
11/27/04 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Mitchosky

quote:
--------------------------------------------
neither the Spacer I had before and the Maestro unit I have now will respond to bounced pronto codes either.
---------------------------------------------

Very narrow band. Which is the only immediate design flaw I see to the Spacer system. Considering that in most applications the wall switch will not be in plain view.

Next time someone is installing a Spacer please test to see if it will receive remote commands from the rear through its plastic case. That is the only way I could see a repeater/bug system working. Otherwise it's "over the shoulder".

Hi Jay,

This is the best "How-To-Do" on the Spacer System that I have run across. Great work.

I used the Spacer System for my home theater, and I'm very happy with it except for the very narrow band sensitivity of the IR eye in the Remote Master Control.

I did the lighting design and had the builder's electrician install the dimmers and Remote Master Control while our new home was under construction. We have two entrances to the theater. A door in the rear with a 6-gang bank of dimmers and double doors on the side where the Remote Master Control is located. You can see a layout of my theater by clicking on the link in my signature. (By the way, like you I also used both IR emitters in the 6-way gang box.)

When the shell of the room was first completed I could use the wireless remote control to select lighting scenes by pointing the remote at the Master Control from any seating location. However, after I finished the interior I installed columns on either side of the double doors, and I relocated the Remote Master Control from flush on the wall to the side of a column closest to the entry. Unfortunately, the IR beam must hit the control fairly close to perpendicular, because now I can "hit" the Remote Master Control from only one seat in the room, or shoot over my shoulder to the 6-way gang.

I often thought that it should be possible to get the Remote Master Control to work through the back of the clear plastic case and toyed with the idea of an IR repeater, but it would be a bit involved.

I've already got a sensor mounted in the ceiling over the seating running back to a repeater in my equipment rack in the rear of the room. It's controlling four devices and works well from any seat in the room. I just point up. The problem is that the column with the Remote Master Control is about 40 circuit feet away from the repeater, and I doubt if emitters come with leads that long. I suppose I could experiment with splicing a long wire and seeing if it still lights the emitter.

The other alternative would be to install a second repeater system inside the column with its own IR sensor mounted on the face. The problem is there is no electric outlet in the column to power the repeater. Perhaps I could tap the power at the Remote Master Control.

I've got this issue on the "back burner" for now since I've got a few higher priority things to complete on the theater. Maybe it this bugs me enough I'll pursue it. Regardless, I would still welcome any ideas you or the other forum members might have.

Thanks.

Larry
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post #44 of 97
11/30/04 at 4:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
This is the best "How-To-Do" on the Spacer System that I have run across. Great work.
Aw, shucks. :b

Quote:
now I can "hit" the Remote Master Control from only one seat in the room, or shoot over my shoulder to the 6-way gang.
Sounds familiar. When the room is finally up and running and guests are there I'm sure they'll wonder what the hell I'm doing.

Quote:
...I doubt if emitters come with leads [40 feet] long. I suppose I could experiment with splicing a long wire and seeing if it still lights the emitter.
You can. My primary IR cable is run with CAT-5 to the front and I just need to wire the sensor. Same principle as the travellers for the Spacer remote master. The electrons don't care.

Quote:
The other alternative would be to install a second repeater system inside the column with its own IR sensor mounted on the face.
If you mean placing the IR "bug" on the remote master's IR receiver I don't know how well this would work. Since it's also a scene button it would probably keep getting knocked off. Would also look kind of odd. I have to assume that the master would respond to IR from behind as well. That would be ideal. I just don't feel like yanking the remote from the wall to test it (I hate stuffing those wires back!).
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post #45 of 97
11/30/04 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Mitchosky

quote:
----------------------------------
...I doubt if emitters come with leads [40 feet] long. I suppose I could experiment with splicing a long wire and seeing if it still lights the emitter.
----------------------------------

You can. My primary IR cable is run with CAT-5 to the front and I just need to wire the sensor. Same principle as the travellers for the Spacer remote master. The electrons don't care.

Duh! I should have realized that since I used a long run of CAT-5 from my overhead IR sensor to my repeater.

Quote:
quote:
-----------------------------------
The other alternative would be to install a second repeater system inside the column with its own IR sensor mounted on the face.
-----------------------------------

If you mean placing the IR "bug" on the remote master's IR receiver I don't know how well this would work. Since it's also a scene button it would probably keep getting knocked off. Would also look kind of odd. I have to assume that the master would respond to IR from behind as well. That would be ideal. I just don't feel like yanking the remote from the wall to test it (I hate stuffing those wires back!).

Sorry I was unclear. No, I meant mounting a second IR sensor on the face of the column. Then I would need a repeater inside the column and power to it. An emitter would be run from the repeater to the back of the clear plastic on the rear of the Master Control.

After thinking this over this is definately NOT the way to go for me. As it turns out I already have two spare CAT-5 wires pulled into the attic space over my home theater and terminating near my repeater. Your comment regarding CAT-5 jogged my memory!! They were originally placed there for possible triggers on my projector, but I don't foresee needing them for that.

I guess all I need is to splice a 1/8" connector on one end of the CAT-5 and the emitter on the other. Then remove the column (easier said than done) drill a hole in the ceiling and pull the emitter down, taping it to the back of the remote control. I think when I'm ready to pursue this I'll try a test run first without getting in the attic by using a spare 40 foot piece of CAT-5.

I think the hardest part is going to be overcoming inertia.

Thanks for helping me bounce these ideas around with you.

Regards,

Larry
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post #46 of 97
12/4/04 at 1:42pm
Just picked up one of these today to control my can lights in my HT. Cant wait to get it up and running, yet another remote!
I also picked up a toggle type dimmer made by Lutron for my 6 outside cans, no need for IR on this one.
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post #47 of 97
12/8/04 at 10:28pm
Jay,

Where did you position your master control box relative to your seating and screen?
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post #48 of 97
12/12/04 at 1:44pm
Jay,
In an earlier post, you mentioned;

Quote:
Small snag - the IR receiver at the master does not seem sensitive enough to respond to commands from my Pronto bounced from the front of the room... Would a bug on the back of the master's chassis work? It's a clear shell. I might be still able to run a line up into the gang if this is the case.


I don't know if there is another sensor in the backbox of the master - that would definitely solve your problem. Be nice to know.

If that doesn't work, I've put IR blasters in adjacent walls or the ceiling, (even across the room), aimed at the dimmer. Works like a champ.

BTW,
I'm using Spacer System dimmers with no master. Since all my equipment is in a separate room, I needed an IR distribution system anyway. - I just run a "Blaster" IR emitter from my main IR distribution system into the back of the wallbox where the spacer dimmers live. No troubles.
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post #49 of 97
12/16/04 at 10:48am
I also have mine setup without a Master. Universal remote does everything the Master does. With macros it's nice to hit play and have the lights come down. Then on pause/stop they come back up to a nice level. I've got 4 zones.
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post #50 of 97
12/16/04 at 2:45pm
After reading this thread, this seems like it should be straight forward, and yet, I must admit. I'm more than a little confused.

I'm sitting here looking at the studs with the wiring done, I'm just waiting on an inspector. It seems to me, I should be able to make this work, but don't know what is required. It looks like what I need to do, is to run some low voltage signal wires between all of the switch boxes? I have three double gang boxes located at various points around the room.

It feels like I'm missing something. Anyone care to set me straight?
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post #51 of 97
12/17/04 at 7:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Where did you position your master control box relative to your seating and screen?
Behind, immediately to the right of the door when you walk in. The entrance is at the back of the room.

Quote:
Universal remote does everything the Master does. With macros it's nice to hit play and have the lights come down.
Yes and no. The Spacer dimmers are independently controlled via IR - in its most basic form the master is no different then aiming a remote at the Spacers. However, what you cannot accomplish with macros is managing multiple scenes. Strictly on and off to whatever the previous dimmer settings were (so in effect one scene only). But if you a) don't require multiple scenes, and b) have the main gangs in the same room then you do not require one of the master controls to turn the lights on and off.

Quote:
It looks like what I need to do, is to run some low voltage signal wires between all of the switch boxes? I have three double gang boxes located at various points around the room.
This becomes a bit of a challenge. The signal wires (Lutron refers to them as "travellers") that I have is standard guage electrical cable just like you see in your average wall box. Presumably any carrier would be appropriate. Problem with what you propose is that you have three different locations but the remote master only controls two IR bugs out of the box. You'll need to work with your lighting supplier to figure out the third. I think all you would need to do is purchase an extra IR clip for the third gang and then you would have three travellers connected to the back of the master (vs. two in my pictures, so three blacks to one traveller and three whites to the other). It also becomes imperative at this point to have that deep gang for the master. You may also be able to run a pair of the IR transmitters in series so you would only have two main travellers at the master, then off one of the gangs you would wire a second set of travellers to continue on. No matter how you slice it you'll need an additional IR transmitter.
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post #52 of 97
12/17/04 at 7:12am
Quote:
Yes and no. The Spacer dimmers are independently controlled via IR - in its most basic form the master is no different then aiming a remote at the Spacers. However, what you cannot accomplish with macros is managing multiple scenes. Strictly on and off to whatever the previous dimmer settings were (so in effect one scene only). But if you a) don't require multiple scenes, and b) have the main gangs in the same room then you do not require one of the master controls to turn the lights on and off.

This is incorrect. I have both the HTM-500 and HTM-800. Both came with the commands to run the Spacer System, including managing scenes. I do not have the Lutron Master or remote. Saved a little change to apply elsewhere in my theater.
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post #53 of 97
12/17/04 at 12:30pm
So if I understand this correctly:
What I need is to run one traveler from each of the double gang boxes to some common location, like the front of the room. The switch location end of the travelers, attach to a IRclip. The master end of the travelers attach to what another IRclip or the master module directly?
Commands are beamed at the master location. The master then transmits the commands over the travelers to the IRclip in the switch boxes, which relays the commands to the switch modules which react to the commands.

So I'll need 4 IRclips or 3 IRclips because the master module connects directly to the travelers?
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post #54 of 97
12/22/04 at 8:32am
Does anyone have any suggestions on where to purchase Lutron Spacer System (not regular Spacer) components? I priced out the stuff I need from Lowes and Home Depot (special order at both places of course) and its within a few dollars of Lutron's MSRP. The guy at Home Depot even told me that its their cost + 50%.

By the way, Grainger has an assortment of Spacer (but not Spacer System) components for a few bucks less than Home Depot's cost. So if you're looking for the regular Spacer system, head to http://www.grainger.com.
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post #55 of 97
12/22/04 at 9:12am
I got mine online from Hanks Electric about two years ago. They were a good deal then.
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post #56 of 97
12/22/04 at 10:59am
Quote:
I got mine online from Hanks Electric about two years ago. They were a good deal then.


WOW! And they are now too! Thanks for the tip. Lutron recommended another one to me today - www.laner.com - but Hank's beats them too.

Off topic for this post, but on topic for the thread: Lutron told me that the remote for the grafik eye (part number GRX-IT-WH) is fully compatible with the Spacer System (not sure about regular Spacer) and is white instead of "Royal Plum" like the regular Spacer System 4 scene remote (part number SPS-4IT-RP). So if you want white, you have an option.
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post #57 of 97
1/10/05 at 6:40pm
Jay :
A few questions about the spacer install. My install will be similar in location to yours, Spacer master placed at the entrance to the theater in the rear left corner. I gather from your posts you would recommed adding a i/r emitter from the A/v repeater system somewhere in the line of sight of the Spacer master to ensure the master will get the signal when the remote is pointed at the front? Also could the av system remote either a pronto or harmony be taught from the emitters from the spacer master control? Just thought that teaching from the emitters would negate the need to buy the spacer remote.
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post #58 of 97
1/14/05 at 2:26pm
Roy, you can "program" a Harmony remote with the lutron codes from the Harmony website. No need for the spacer remote in this case. There are actually more codes than seem to be applicable to the spacer system remote so you might have to delete some and reassign some buttons. Works well though. In my setup I have a wall mounted master in the same box as four dimmers. I also have a wall mounted remote at the front of my room that is wired to an IR blaster in the main wallbox. The one mistake I made would be not having a real good line of sight location for the wall mounted remote. It is really tricky to get it to pick up the command from the handheld.
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post #59 of 97
1/25/05 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
you would recommed adding a i/r emitter from the A/v repeater system somewhere in the line of sight of the Spacer master to ensure the master will get the signal when the remote is pointed at the front?
Sorry for not replying sooner - my bad. :b

Ideally, yes. The rather lackluster range/receiving angle of the Spacer sensor is the only that disappoints me about this product. I use a Pronto and that puppy has one of the strongest emitters available and it still requires almost direct line of sight to control the Spacer master. Were I to have known this during construction I likely would have installed an extra emitter from the repeater box. Challenge (as mentioned earlier if I recall) is that it wouldn't work very well if you were to stick it on the Spacer sensor. It would always get knocked off as it's also the control for Scene 4. Would also look pretty silly. I don't believe anyone has tested this but it would be ideal if you could place an emitter on the back casing where it would be hidden from view. Just don't know if it would register from there.


Quote:
Also could the av system remote either a pronto or harmony be taught from the emitters from the spacer master control?

Absolutely. There's nothing special about the Spacer code. In fact you can simply go over to Remote Central and download the code right now. That's what I did - never had to buy or even borrow a Spacer remote.
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post #60 of 97
1/27/05 at 2:05pm
Jay;

What kind of distance are you refering to?

The room I have mine in is 26FT long and I have no problem controlling the master with the GE controller I got for my Spacer system.

The master is on the opposite side of the room from my switches and it works flawlessly.

I wonder if the GE controller works better with the Spacer Master and dimmers than the Spacer controller...

Mark
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