HTF Review: The Black Hole - Page 2

"Take out those f&*#ing floating robots, improve the dialog, have better acting and an ending that actually makes sense and you'd probably have a dynamite film here."

I like the flying robots. What kid in 1980 didn't want their very own Vincent after seeing the film?

"The visual design is awesome, the concept a viable one, most of the special effects (apart from aforementioned robots) are excellent, the music is striking, the sound remarkable, and some of the horror elements truly horrifying. I was so bitterfly pissed off after seeing this, because it had such great potential."

I was 9 when the movie came out, so, I was more confused by the non-sensical ending than anything else

"But Disney wanted so badly to make this a family entertainment that it compromised the film almost beyond hope."

Disney had serious issues with trying to reach beyond family entertainment in the late 70's and early 80's. The market was shifting away from them, with the teen audience becoming more and more important. While Escape to Witch Mountain in 1975 had been a fresh and intresting success for them, attempts to lure teens with sci-fi and horror misfired in the early 80's -- The Black Hole, The Watcher in the Woods, Tron, Something Wicked This Way Comes. Films like Tex and Never Cry Wolf were critically acclaimed, but they were not hits. The Black Cauldron was in development and pre-pro during this period, and the eventual results in 1985 were as muddled as The Black Hole.

"We just don't need Pat Butram and Roddy MacDowalls' voices giving us "comic relief" from a pair of childish, Star Wars-rip-off tin can robots."

I think the robots in SW are more child-oriented than the robots in Black Hole, but that's a matter of taste. Kids love the robots in both films. Slim Pickens was the voice of Old Bob, not Pat Buttram.

"They alone drag this film down several notches."

Not for me, not when I was a kid. I loved them both.

"The cast is mostly wooden to the point of boring. Still, THE BLACK HOLE is a movie I go back to from time to time. The gorgeous (but all too short) shuttle ride in the tube between ships, the eerie funeral and discovery of the secret of the worker droids, the terrifying death of Anthony Perkins at the "hands" of Maximilian, the starscapes and black hole itself... all these offset the crappier aspects of the film just enough to make it watchable."

I have a great deal of affection for it, even while recognizing it as one of the goofier movies ever made. I consider it a camp classic today. If only Joel and Tom and Crowe had a chance to comment on the film...

"Here is a film I wish Disney would remake, as an adult-oriented story that preserves the awe we feel about the inifinity of space and its exploration."

It does dance on the edge of inspiration, doesn't it? I really don't kmow what happened to this film, other than there was a breakdown in the writing stage. Bad scripts have felled larger beasts than The Black Hole.

"I don't remember scratching my head at the end of 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA trying to decipher five minutes of surreal and apparently senseless images."

As space and time stretch into infinity, Kate falls unconscious and has a vision of Reindhardt -- his soul divided in twain. The evil part of Reindhardt is interred in Hell, the good part of his soul is absolved in Heaven. Kate comes to, and finds that the ship is adrift in a new part of the universe, in a new solar system.

Why don't audiences like this? We can sense that the trio of survivors in 20,000 Leagues will likely be rescued at film's end, but in The Black Hole, there's just a large star and some upbeat music by John Barry. They are alone in space. Hardly a happy ending.

I vaugely remember a comic book that continued the story from the end of the film. I don't remember any details about it, tho.

Jason

I know the ending of The Black Hole may seem a little surreal, but I'd say it was far more understandable than the incromprehensible mess at the end of 2001, yet no one complains about that. Now I'm not saying the visual images of 2001 weren't visually and cinematically stunning and are most likely superior to The Black Hole. But, if the rest of the film didn't hold up there'd be very few people praising the ending of 2001.

There's nothing wrong with the flying robots. Their use is not the problem in this movie. Bad dialog, poor acting, and a weak plot - those are the flaws. You also have to remember the target audience for this movie. Why wasn't it more adult oriented? Because it wasn't supposed to be. It was made by Disney remember. Don't criticize the film using only the eyes of an adult.

2001's ending makes sense - The Black Hole's ending sort-of does, too. It's just a *bad* ending, whereas 2001's is perfect.

Absolutely correct, and I apologize for the error. Plus, I seem to be very much in the minority regarding my views of this film (at least among those posting to this thread). I certainly agree it has many strengths. But even the kid inside me despises those robots...

"The Black Hole" was a beautiful film to look at. The set design and the matte paintings were, for the most part, very good. Some scenes will always be with me such as when the ship lights up and the funeral sequence (Disney loves good funerals). If memory serves me correctly this was the first PG film to be released under the Disney banner.

"If memory serves me correctly this was the first PG film to be released under the Disney banner."

Yes and no. The Black Hole was the first Disney film to be released with the PG banner, but the first Disney film (that I know of) to get rated PG -- necessitating some editing to get it back down to a G -- was a re-release of Treasure Island in the 70's. Disney was planning on re-releasing the film, submitted it to the MPAA as a matter of routine, and the film was rated PG. Surprised by the rating, the Disney company got out the scissors and trimmed a few seconds of violence and re-submitted it, and the film was given the coveted G rating (in other words, the 70's re-release of Treasure Island is the first Disney film that I know of that was given a PG, even though it was censored to earn a G).

The DVD for Treasure Island contains the uncut version, and if you'll notice, it is indeed carrying a PG rating. By the by, if you look on the back of the DVD for Three Lives of Thomasina, you'll see that it, too, now carries a PG rating. don't know about the new Darby O'Gill DVD, but I suspect that it, too, may earn a PG.

If Disney is looking for properties to remake, they could do worse than this one.

All right - lets hear some solutions. Assume you've been hired to do a remake of The Black Hole. How would you fix the ending? The survivors are stuck on a ship programmed to go through the Black Hole, and it plunges into it. What happens next?

Collectors who bought the Anchor Bay "collector's set" know that one of the suggested endings involved a sort of "Men In Black" twist, where the probe ship emerges in a universe, and then we pull back and discover the universe is a atom on Planet Earth (no foolin').

That doesn't work for me, because there is no emotional or intellectual payoff to this, it is just a gimmick.

Structure a new version of the Black Hole in which the journey into the beyond has an emotional and intellectual payoff.

No, surely the black hole as a conduit to some other place, or even some other universe, must remain. Otherwise why use the black hole at all? In The Black Hole the black hole literally is that undiscover'd country from whose bourne, no traveller returns. In other words the black hole is death.

And it's not like black holes aren't still mysterious wells into which we can not peer. All the math and theory in the world still can't get around the basic issue that we can not actually look into a black hole. I'm sure one could tweak it slightly as to suggest that somehow a craft properly equipped could use the distortion of space at the singularity itself to travel to another universe entirely. It's only fiction after all. What conclusive proof drawn from the study of said singularity could one offer to counter the idea?

No, as a metaphor for death and the unknown, the unknowable, the black hole still works just fine. As for how to actually end it. I may be a bad choice since I like the original ending well enough. It's fitting that after passing through the black hole they find themselves in some new world. They pass through the curtain of death and into a brave new world. A world of endless possibility.

To an extent I'd argue that how this is seen will depend on the person watching it. I myself actually consider the ending to be upbeat. I like to believe that this new place they found themselves in is one of said endless possibility. I'm not sure that spelling out said possibility would be any better than, say, the ending of The Shawshank Redemption.

Of course one approach would be to end it before they exit the black hole. So as to never reveal what lies on the other side of the curtain. But I still prefer the original with their 'birth' into a new world and then just leaving the rest up to the audience’s imagination.

Perhaps just some slight indication that this is indeed a new universe and that there is something there. Nothing too blatant but some slight indication that they aren't just stranded in the middle of nowhere but that there is something out there.

It's just a nice, simple, entertaining movie. Creepy, great sets, atmospheric.

Wasn't there some report or discussion or debate (when the first DVDs came out from Anchor Bay, or even before that) that The Black Hole was being prepped, written, etc. before Star Wars: A New Hope came out so it wasn't really a rip-off? Just bad timing?

I also wondered why there is a planet shown on the box cover.

It's funny to see the wires supporting the actors and robots so blatantly obvious (no digital "erasing" as part of the remaster?). I have never seen the Anchor Bay versions so I don't know if the wires are so visible due to the improved video transfer.

Finally, I would end a remake by not showing anything. Leave it up to everyone's imagination. I might show the Palomino crew's faces as they enter and leave it at that. Maybe show Maximilian's glowing red eyes in total darkness and end it there. Maybe a V.I.N.C.E.N.T. voice-over with one of his philosophical quotes (or a new one that relates to exploring the unknown).

I enjoyed this movie as a kid and I still enjoy it today. Thanks, Disney/Buena Vista!

"The 'Wills' accomplish everything, the 'Won'ts' oppose everything, and the 'Can'ts' won't try anything." - V.I.N.C.E.N.T.

"The word 'impossible' ... is only found in the dictionary of fools." - Dr. Reinhardt

"A world of endless possibility."

And then the oxygen supply runs out.

Vincent is left alone in a floating ship full of decomposing corpses.

Roll credits.

"No, surely the black hole as a conduit to some other place, or even some other universe, must remain. Otherwise why use the black hole at all? In The Black Hole the black hole literally is that undiscover'd country from whose bourne, no traveller returns. In other words the black hole is death."

Andrew and I are on the same page. The potential for great thematic richness is stamped all over the story for the Black Hole, but such great potential is never realized. The *potential* reminds me of the *potential* of Alien 3, but I think Alien 3 is almost as big of a mess as The Black Hole.

My only answer to the story problem is built around the idea of making the main character Kate, the psychic. As the film begins, Kate is plagued by dreams about her father, and visions of her own death. One of the main problems with the Black Hole is that we never follow one central protagonist, we follow one character here and there -- that structure has to go. Kate would be the main character, and her visions will come true. She will see her father again, and she will die.

The trick is structuring the ending so that Kate chooses to sacrifice herself by launching the probe ship with herself in it, somehow saving the rest of her crew, who must run for the Palomino instead (the Palomino can't be fried like it was in the original). As the crew blasts off on the Palomino, they watch from a distance -- Vincent sees what Kate sees as her ship takes Reinhardt's course and plunges into the Black Hole. Vincent sees the trip, then Kate's death, and then, suddenly, Kate's reunion with her father in the afterlife.

Vincent's vision ends, as the Palomino changes course and limps towards home.

That would be my rough sketch of a remake of the Black Hole.

(waits for rotten tomatoes to hit me in the face)

An incredible disappointment!

Not the film, but the transfer.

My non-anamorphic Anchor Bay copy looks better zoomed than this anamorphic Disney release!

The Anchor Bay version has better depth, more vibrant colors, more detail and less grain than the Disney version.

I am dumbfounded. Has anyone else done an A/B comparison between the two and agree with me? I am watching this on a 65" 16X9 SONY Avia calibrated sitting 8 feet back.

I guess sometimes, enhancing films is not always an improvement.

BTW, I love this film.

WOW, Tino's assertion is quite intriguing. I don't have the AB version, but Peter M. Bracke at DVDfile had exact opposite reaction to the transfers.

Well, I hope David can get to do a comparison so we have this issue cleared out.
And thanks David, as always, an excelent review!

I just re-read the review over at dvd file and all I can say is .

FWIW, I had some friends over awhile ago and I showed them the opening scenes from both versions and all three of them picked the Anchor Bay version as looking the best.

Go figure! Hopefully someone here will also do an A/B comparison. I doubt that I have a defective copy, but you never know.

I thought the first digitally recorded score was for Jerry Goldsmith's "Star Trek - The Motion Picture" (ironically came out around the same time and was a big a mess as BH)

RRResist....urge...t..to debate...ST:TMP/BH comp..ar..ison....

Phewwww...anyway, according to Varese Sarabande Records in discussing STAR TREK: NEMESIS being the first DSD recorded motion picture score...

Ernest,

I've seen this film numerous times and I've never gotten the impression that this is what happened. Not that I'm doubting it, but I'm interested to hear what in the film led you to this interpretation.

I have not yet sold off my AB version so I will also try and AB comparison tonight.

Bruce Botnick claims that Star Trek: TMP is the first digitally recorded score. John Barry and Dan Wallin claim that The Black Hole is. I had never heard the claim about Star Trek: TMP until Botnick asserted it in the liner notes of the Nemesis SACD.

The latest Star Trek: TMP CD from Columbia/Legacy lists a recording date as early as September 25, 1979, but the bulk of the final score was recorded in October and November. Unforuntately I have no idea what the dates of The Black Hole scoring sessions are.

I just did an A-B comparison with the AB and the Disney Black Hole.

I'd have to say the results are inconclusive. Maybe a little more EE on the Disney version. Neither one has a great transfer.

5'x12' screen, viewed from 15'.

HTPC, NVidia FWMM 4.0 filters, FFDShow, Zoom Player, NVidia 5950 Ultra video card, DVI, feeding Sharp XV-Z12000 HD2+ DLP.

Ted

DaViD Boulet wrote (post #1):



Haven't seen it for a while (I've got the laser disc somewhere), and even though I found some of it silly, I never got the impression that The Black Hole was intended as "camp". I always thought it best taken as a dark fairytale.

An "adult take" on remaking this film, and especially on reworking its ending, would have to consider the premises behind, and concepts (but lightly) explored in, Event Horizon (1999), no?

Btw, has anyone here watched an anamorphically enhanced re-issue and prefered the non-anamorphic version?

Have all 16X9 upgrades been an improvement?

Just wondering.

heh, no coparison needed. Two COMPLETELY different films that just happen to be in the same genre, and were both the victims of studio meddling. (and BOTH released in December of 1979, but I'm pretty sure Trek was first by at least a week or two)

I, too, have the Nemesis SACD. Awesome score in full 6 channel surround. Would love to see some of the older multitrack soundtracks released in the same fashion.

Unfortunately, I have to REPLACE my Nemesis SACD: the center of the disc (the thinner, spindle area) is beginning to crack. No idea why, never had that happen before. It was my first dual-layer CD/SACD hybrid. I hope this isn't some kind of design flaw.

Tino: 16x9 VS 4x3....well (um) "Showgirls".

"The Abyss: SE" was supposed to come out in 16x9, but the new transfer was inferior. So Cameron decided to use the LD master.

"Titanic" remains one of the few unfiltered DVDs, and can look stunning even when projected. I'm not sure if an anamorphic DVD would be an improvement, since the mindset these days is to filter nearly everything in some way.