*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread - Page 4

Well The Maltese Falcon certainly deserves credit for popularizing noir, so whether or not it's considered the very first film of it's type doesn't take from it that fact that it's certainly one of the greatest.

Like Herb mentioned, credit should be given to Lang, (also von Sternberg & other german filmmakers) for their influence.

My thoughts are that no single entity or film created the noir movement but rather it evolved from the aforementioned German Expressionist Crime films of the 20's & 30's, the French Crime films of the early 30's & the American Gangster films of the early 30's.

As for a Noir film challenge, I'd love to participate in one. Though it really shouldn't be in this thread IMO.

Detour is one of the worst film noirs I have ever seen. I just didn't like the story or the characters. I taped it off TCM and I was even fast forwarding through some parts of the movie.

How does Dangerous Female (the first adaptation of The Maltese Falcon) compare to The Maltese Falcon? I wonder. TCM airs both of those movies this week (Dangerous Female airs on monday morning).

TCM also airs some other film noir during the week like KISS ME DEADLY, SPLIT SECOND, CROSSFIRE, and DETOUR.

If that's the case, I'd like to suggest keeping the list here. In fact, I have a very unique compilation from a noir writer (Sidney Keywood) who put a list together using ten various sources and then highlighted a "consensus list" whereby listing the films that were mutually agreed upon by at least 8 of the 10 sources.

I'd be happy to list them and the sources... if everyone is interested and in agreement.

I'd like to see this list.

OK,

Then here I'll post. Since this isn't my own thread, this will be more of a suggestion, than actual rules, but what I was hoping was to get a list of 50 films. The idea being that anyone who'd seen all 50 of these films would have a good handle on film noir (including the controversy). I figured most of us would have seen a number of those, and that would leave a reasonable number left to see for anyone who wanted to participate in the challenge.

I was thinking on collecting 'nominations' for a couple of days (no seconding, thirding, etc. - we don't want to tie up this thread with that nonsense). We could collect nominations here (Robert - this is your call), or people could pm them to me.

I'd ask each person to list

5 Greatest noirs (however that person defines the genre)
3 Historically important 'noirs'
2 Otherwise interesting 'noir' films

Greatest is self-explanatory - you just list what you think are the 5 best ever made.

Historically important are ones that aren't in your top 5, but are otherwise important for someone to have seen. This could include films that you don't feel qualify as a true noir, but are important nonetheless, an important predecessor to noirs, a member of an important subgenre of noir (firsts, lasts, etc.)

Otherwise interesting are just ones that would help broaden one's knowledge of noir. These wouldn't be the best, nor even the most important, but otherwise interesting (e.g., a western that is a noir, a sex-role reversed noir, a spoof of noirs, etc.)

Again, though, each person decides for themselves. I'd put Chinatown in the Greatest category. Others might consider it neo-noir which is historically important and put it in the Historically important category. Others might consider it so unrelated to true noir that it would fall into the Otherwise interesting category, and still others might not think it belongs in any three.

Anyway, I'd put these all together, and develop a ballot for later in the week, we're people would make their final votes. Then I'd tabulate the results, and we'd have our list for the challenge.

PLEASE: Do not post any nominations in this thread until Robert says it's OK. He may decide he'd prefer you to send me pms. However, feel free to please continue the general discussion about film noir.

So here is an interesting spin on things from the opposite end. Just to be clear, this is NOT my project. The following list was compiled by Sidney Keywood - (http://www.gaskcadd.com/ssk_pix/FilmNoir.htm) - There were upwards of 800 titles on his list and the following is a collective group whereby (at least) 8 of the sources listed below indicated the title as “film noir”. There were also a healthy number of titles listed between 1960-1965 but there was a consensus of only 6 titles between that timeframe:

Blast of Silence (1961)
Brainstorm (1965)
Cape Fear (1962)
The Manchurian Candidate (1962)
The Naked Kiss (1964)
Underworld U.S.A. (1961)

It’s also interesting (and ironic) that considering there are only a handful of titles that received a unanimous pick (from all 10 sources), Double Indemnity, Out Of The Past, The Maltese Falcon aren’t among them, yet The Set-Up (which is what initiated this debate) received all 10 eligible votes.


CONSENSUS FILM NOIR (1940 thru 1959)

Sources:

E-Film Noir Encyclopedia (Silver & Ward, '92)
S-Somewhere in the Night (Christopher, '97)
D--Dark City (Selby, '84)
C-Film Noir: A Comprehensive, Illustrated Reference (Stephens, '95)
B-Death on the Cheap, B Movies of Film Noir (Lyons, '00)
G-Film Noir Guide (Keaney, '03)
T-Film Noir: Films of Trust and Betrayal (Duncan, ’02)
H-Dark Side of the Screen: Film Noir (Hirsch, ’01)
P- Panorama of American Film Noir (Translated by Hammond, ’02)
I-Internet Movie Database (7-Jan-04)

IESDCBGT P Act of Violence (1949)
IESDC GTHP Angel Face (1952)
IESDCBGT Armored Car Robbery (1950)
IESDC GTHP Asphalt Jungle, The (1950)
IESDCBGTH Beware, My Lovely (1952)
IE DCBGTH Beyond a Reasonable Doubt (1956)
IESDC GTHP Big Carnival, The (1951)….Ace in the Hole
IESDC GTHP Big Clock, The (1948)
IESDCBGTH Big Combo, The (1955)
IESDC GTHP Big Heat, The (1953)
IESDC GTHP Big Sleep, The (1946)
IESDCBGTHP Black Angel (1946)
IE DCBGT P Black Tuesday (1954)
IESDC GTHP Blue Dahlia, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Body and Soul (1947)….Affair of the Heart, An
IESDCBGT P Border Incident (1949)
IESDCBGT P Born to Kill (1947)….Deadlier than the Male
IESDCBGT P Brasher Doubloon, The (1947)….High Window
IESDC GTHP Breaking Point, The (1950)
IESDC GTHP Brute Force (1947)
IESDC GTHP Call Northside 777 (1948)
IESDCBGT Captive City, The (1952)
IE DCBGT P Cause for Alarm! (1951)
IE DCBGT P Chase, The (1946)
IESDCBGT P City That Never Sleeps (1953)
IESDC GTH Clash by Night (1952)
IESDC GTHP Conflict (1945)
IESDC GTHP Cornered (1945)
IESDC GTHP Criss Cross (1949)
IE DCBGT P Crooked Way, The (1949)
IESDC GTHP Crossfire (1947)
IESDCBGT Cry Danger (1951)
IESDC GTHP Dark Corner, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Dark Mirror, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Dark Passage (1947)
IESDCBGT P Dark Past, The (1948)….Hearsay
IESDC GT P Dead Reckoning (1947)
IESDCBGT Desperate (1947)
IESDCBGT Detour (1945)
IESDCBGTH D.O.A. (1950)
IESDC GTHP Double Indemnity (1944)
IESDC GTH Edge of Doom (1950)….Stronger Than Fear
IESDC GTHP Enforcer, The (1951)….Murder, Inc.
IESDC GTHP Fallen Angel (1945)
IE DCBGT P Fear (1946)
IESDCBGT P Fear in the Night (1947)
IESDC GTHP File on Thelma Jordon, The (1949)
IESDCBGT Follow Me Quietly (1949)
IESDC GT P Force of Evil (1948).….Tucker's People
IESDCBGT Framed (1947)….Paula
IESDC GTHP Gilda (1946)
IESDC GT P Glass Key, The (1942)
IESDCBGT Guilty Bystander (1950)
IESDCBGTHP Gun Crazy (1950)
IESDCBGT He Ran All the Way (1951)
IESDCBGT P He Walked by Night (1948)
IESDC GT P High Wall (1947)...Highwall, The
IESDCBGT Hitch-Hiker, The (1953)
IESDCBGT P Hollow Triumph (1948)….Scar, The
IESDC GT P House of Strangers (1949)
IESDC GTHP House on 92nd Street, The (1945)
IESDC GTH Human Desire (1954)….Human Beast, The
IESDCBGT I Married a Communist (1949)..Woman on Pier 13
IESDC GTHP In a Lonely Place (1950)
IESDCBGT I, the Jury (1953)
IESDCBGT I Was a Communist for the FBI (1951)
I SDCBGTHP Jeopardy (1952)
IESDCBGT Johnny Angel (1945)
IESDC GT P Johnny O'Clock (1947)
IESDCBGT P Journey Into Fear (1942)
IESDCBGTHP Kansas City Confidential (1952)….Secret Four
IESDC GTHP Key Largo (1948)
IESDC GTHP Killers, The (1946)…..Man Alone, A
IESDCBGTH Killer's Kiss (1955)
IESDCBGTH Killing, The (1956)
IESDCBGTHP Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
IESDC GTHP Kiss of Death (1947)
IESDCBGT P Kiss the Blood Off My Hands (1948)
IESDC GTHP Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (1950)
IESDC GTHP Lady from Shanghai, The (1948)….Black Irish
IESDC GTHP Lady in the Lake (1947)
IE DCBGT P Lady Without Passport, A (1950)
IESDC GTHP Laura (1944)
IES C GTHP Leave Her to Heaven (1945) [COLOR]
IESDCBGTH Lineup, The (1958)
IESDCBGT P Locket, The (1946)
IE DCBGTHP M (1951)
IESDC GT P Macao (1952)
IESDC GTHP Maltese Falcon, The (1941)
IE DCBGT P Manhandled (1949)
IESDC GT P Mask of Dimitrios, The (1944)
IESDC GT P Mildred Pierce (1945)
IESDC GTHP Ministry of Fear (1944)
IESDCBGT P Mob, The (1951)….Remember That Face
IESDC GTHP Murder, My Sweet (1944)….Farewell My Lovely
IESDCBGTH My Name is Julia Ross (1945)
IESDC GT P Mystery Street (1950)….Murder at Harvard
IESDCBGTHP Narrow Margin, The (1952)
IESDCBGT New York Confidential (1955)
IES C GTHP Niagra (1953) [COLOR]
IESDC GTHP Night and the City (1950)
IESDCBGT Night Editor (1946)….Tresspasser, The
IESDCBGT Nightfall (1956)
IESDC GTH Night Has a Thousand Eyes,The (1948)
IESDCBGTH Nightmare (1956)
IESDC GTHP Nightmare Alley (1947)
IESDCBGT 99 River Street (1953)….Crosstown
IESDCBGT P Nocturne (1946)
IESDC GT P Notorious (1946)….Alfred Hitchcock's Notorious
ESDCBGTH Odds Against Tomorrow (1959)
IESDCBGTHP On Dangerous Ground (1951)
IESDCBGT P One Way Street (1950)
IESDC GTHP Out of the Past (1947)….Build My Gallows High
IESDC GTHP Panic in the Streets (1950)
IESDCBGTHP Phantom Lady (1943)
IESDC GTH Pickup on South Street (1953)
IESDC GTH Pitfall (1948)
IES C GTHP Possessed (1947)
IESDC GTHP Postman Always Rings Twice, The (1946)
IESDCBGT Private Hell 36 (1954)
IESDCBGTHP Prowler, The (1951)
IESDCBGT Pushover (1954)
IESDC GT P Racket, The (1951)
IESDCBGTHP Raw Deal (1948)
IESDCBGTH Reckless Moment, The (1949)
IE DCBGT P Red Light (1949)
IESDC GT P Ride the Pink Horse (1947)
IESDCBGT Roadblock (1951)
IESDCBGT Scandal Sheet (1952)….Dark Page, The
IESDC GTH Scarlet Street (1945)
IESDCBGT P Second Woman, The (1951)….Ellen; 12 Miles Out
IESDC GT P Secret Beyond the Door (1948
IESDCBGTHP Set-Up, The (1949)
IESDC GTHP Shadow of a Doubt (1943)
IESDC GT P Shanghai Gesture, The (1941)
IESDCBGT Shock (1946)
IESDC GTHP Side Street (1950)
IESDCBGT Sleeping City, The (1950)….Web of the City
IESDCBGT P Sniper, The (1952)
IESDCBGTH So Dark the Night (1946)
IESDC GT P Somewhere in the Night (1946)
IESDC GTHP Sorry, Wrong Number (1948)
IESDCBGT Southside 1-1000 (1950)
IESDC GT P Strange Love of Martha Ivers, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Stranger, The (1946)….Date with Destiny
IESDCBGT Stranger on the Third Floor (1940)
IESDC GTHP Strangers on a Train (1951)
IESDCBGT Street of Chance (1942)
IESDC GTHP Street with No Name, The (1948)
IESDC GTHP Sudden Fear (1952)
IESDCBGT Suddenly (1954)
IESDC GTHP Sunset Boulevard (1950)
IESDC GT P Suspense (1946)
IESDC GTH Sweet Smell of Success (1957)
IESDCBGT Tension (1949)
IESDC GTHP They Live by Night (1948)….Twisted Road, The
IESDCBGT P Thief, The (1952)
IESDCBGT P Thieves' Highway (1949)….Collision
IESDC GTHP This Gun for Hire (1942)
IESDCBGT P T-Men (1947)
IESDCBGT P Too Late for Tears (1949)….Killer Bait
IESDC GTH Touch of Evil (1958)
IE DCBGT P Try and Get Me (1951)…..Sound of Fury, The
IESDC GT P Turning Point, The (1952)….This Is Dynamite!
IESDCBGT P Undercover Man, The (1949)….Chicago Story
IESDC GT P Undercurrent (1946)
IESDCBGT P Union Station (1950)
IESDCBGT Unknown Man, The (1951)…..Bradley Mason Story
IESDCBGT Vicki (1953)
I SDCBGT P Web, The (1947)
IESDCBGT When Strangers Marry (1944)….Betrayed
IESDCBGT Where Danger Lives (1950)
IESDC GTHP Where the Sidewalk Ends (1950)
IESDC GTH While the City Sleeps (1956)
IESDC GTHP White Heat (1949)
IESDCBGTHP Window, The (1949)
IE DCBGTP Witness to Murder (1954)
IESDC GTHP Woman in the Window, The (1944)
IESDCBGT P Woman on the Run (1950)
IESDCBGT World for Ransom (1954)
IESDC GTH Wrong Man, The (1956)


Personally speaking, I think the list is far too narrow and excludes titles (all of which I have seen) – which I consider to be some of the finest examples of the genre – just to name a few; Caged, The Blue Gardenia, The Champion, The Desperate Hours, House of Bamboo, Impact, The Letter, Nora Prentiss, The Phenix City Story, A Place in the Sun, Quicksand, Railroaded, 711 Ocean Drive, The Third Man… just to name a few. But there should be very little room to argue in that what appears on that list is absolute quintessential noir.

C'mon Crawdaddy you go first...!

I also loved Detour... and talk about life imitating art...

http://www.palmspringslife.com/whisper/neal.html

I'm glad Herb's post cited a website which itself cited the scholarly literature on film noir. While I'm a longtime fan of film noir, I've had mixed feelings about this and related threads because it covers ground (definitions, lists, genre vs. not) long addressed elsewhere. My guess is that some posts here actually draw more or less directly from this literature. I know reading books and articles may not be everyone's cup of tea nowadays, but readers in this forum should be aware that not only does a great film noir literature exist, but it's actually quite approachable – both in terms of readability (ie, not too egg headed) and in terms of accessibility (many can found in major book stores). I'd be happy to cite more titles if requested. There are also quite a few good film noir websites. I've often wanted to post these websites, but I have not posted the minimum of 20 posts in order to include URLs in my posts (questionable forum rule?).

In contrast the standard media, one the things I look to the web for are more personal, iconoclastic, and controversial missives. David's disappointment in Detour – one of my all-time favs – is a neat example. Along these lines, I'd like to contribute to two under-represented themes here:

1. On neo-noirs, my absolute favorite has to be Red Rock West (1992). Laura Flynn-Boyle cranks up the femme fatale role a couple of notches, and Nicolas Cage gets caught up in a very Detour-ish torrent of events. Also way up there is Spanish Prisoner (1997). Campbell Scott plays the poor sap along with remarkable performances by Rebecca Pidgeon and Steve Martin.

2. On foreign noir, one of my neatest finds has been Tell Me Something (1997, South Korea). It's been marketed as a horror flick, and while it does have its quotient of blood, its key themes are all noir including murder, a tortured detective, and mysterious women.

Robert,

How about if I keep track of the nominations, but post a new updated list as we go along, instead of editing a single post? Since a single post would be here in the middle of the thread, it would be rather hard to keep track of. I would certainly volunteer to keep track of the nominations and post updates.

Ok, I'll start:

Double Indemnity

Sunset Blvd.

The Maltese Falcon

The Big Sleep

Touch of Evil


In addition to the above:

M

The Big Clock

This Gun For Hire




Although there may be a certain amount of debate regarding whether it qualifies a true film noir, I have to mention The Night of the Hunter based largely on the fact that I love the film so much. It certainly has many elements of noir, such as voice over, filmed with large dark shadows, crime, etc. The cinematography is unbelievable. Charles Laughton is arguably better here behind the camera than he was in front of it in The Big Clock.

I will also take this opportunity to strongly agree with Glenn, and add Red Rock West here as a "neo-noir" film that deserves a look. A very underrated film.

Thought I'd join the discussion.

After reading these posts, it seems clear that there is no one perfect definition of film noir.

But defining things can be difficult in many things. For example, is the film Alien primarily a horror film or a Scifi thriller? Is a specific song primarily blues or is it rock & roll? Point really being that much is certainly subjective. Noir is no different.

To my mind, noir is much like jazz - you know it when you hear it. However, one person hears (interprets) differently than another.

The beginning of noir is French writers/film critics noticing common elements within American films of the 40's. Bleakly shot films of dark shadows, fatalistic choices and hard nosed antagonists. Some say that these films were created by directors influenced by German Expressionist films of the 20's and early 30's. Films by Fritz Lang (M and Dr. Mabuse) and Josef von Sternberg (Underworld) etc. Others say that it is more the reality of wartime America where just another crime-related film didn't seem to warrant much of a tight budget. Films seemed gritty and dark more due to poor lighting and prop budgets than visionary stylistic choices. Perhaps it is more healthy to accept that both areas are important factors and leave it at that. One thing is clear, no one at the time of making these films said "hey, let's make a noir film."

Elements within Noir is also difficult to pinpoint so I'll mention some that I pulled from articles and my reading on the subject. It should be mention that noir films have some of these elements. For example, just because The Big Clock doesn't have a femme fatale doesn't stop it from being Noir.

Some classic Noir elements (note: Herb provided a good list, this is included as a compliment to his list):


Dark mood. Everything from shadows to dimly lit rooms to stark strips of light to offset it to blinking neon signs to 'offputting' camera angles to worn-out hotel carpet to ...
Foreboding Music. The music may be beautiful (a la Theme from Chinatown) but hints at downfall and the protagonist's lament ( I really like that word). More trumpet than violin, more saxophone than oboe, more off-putting fusion than harmonics.
Femme Fatale
Fatalistic elements e.g. if someone had waited one more minute how the results would have been different ...
Greed, crime and the double-cross
A person's past catching up with them
Down and out choices
The everyday person caught up in a nightmare

Even with that list, some films I am undecided on. For example, Hitchcock's The Wrong Man. It has all the elements I've mentioned other than a man's past catching up with him, yet I don't know whether it is Noir or not. I ask myself, isn't it just a crime drama? I can see it either way.

Matter of fact, on an individual film title basis I see little to gain debating whether something is noir or not. That said, I do question the thought structure of those that seek to limit noir (in general) to:

1. Geography (e.g. American Films)

2. Time Period (i.e. it ended around such and such a date)

3. Black & White films only

My primary thought is I don't see how films should be limited in this manner nor for that manner any other form of expression. For example, jazz music is certainly had its birth and development in America. Yet, if someone creates a jazz piece in France or Sweden does it stop becoming jazz?

"Experts" accept that many foreign born and trained directors created many of the "accepted" noir films yet turn a blind eye to those foreign directors that create noir films in another country. Even worse, including films on their lists by American Jules Dassin yet ignoring his film Rififi because it is a French film. Expression is expression and should not be limited to geography.

Same thing with time period. Why muck things up with "tags" such as neo-noir or (even worse) treat expression like political periods such as the cold war - in other words: 'the cold war effectively ended on such and such a date' and 'noir films came to a close with the screening of such and such a film.' Nonsense. Film noir is very much like surrealist films - they were created in the 20's and they are still being created today.

For those that would contend that noir had its hay day many moons ago ... they are correct, but so what? If a noir film is created tomorrow, it still is a noir film and worthy of discussion.

On the Black & white issue, I agree with Herb's comments regarding films like Niagara. I also agree with those that have already discussed Chinatown. I would contend that Chinatown is one of the absolute best examples of a noir film. At the end of the day, each may decide for themselves whether limiting films for discussion is a good strategy/approach for something they are passionate about and wish to discuss with other link-minded people. Then again, there are some that would exclude Chinatown (due to when it was made) even if it had been a black & white film. The bottom line is: inclusion or exclusion?

You choose.

OK, after reading this thread for a few days it quickly became obvious to me that I don't know jack about film noir. I think I'm going to invest in some books about the genre (I believe that Herb recommended some books at one point). I've read several times that film noir evolved from German Expressionism & French Poetic Realism. I'm not a film historian so I was wondering if someone could explain what the elements of German Expressionism and French Realism are?

thanks

Greg

Greg:

There's quite a cottage industry out there on film noir. Let me first list some websites for you. If you type the following titles (including quotations) in Google, the sites will show up at the top:

"Classic Noir Online"
"Full-Text Articles and Essays on Film Noir"
"10 Shades of Noir"
"Dark City: Film Noir and Fiction"
"Martin's Film Noir Page"
"Mike Keaney's Film Noir Home Page"

And here are the noir books I actually own. I've asterisked those I think are good to start with. I look forward to other recommendations to both lists as I'm always on the lookout for more. Have fun:

Robin Buss, French Film Noir (2001)
*Ian Cameron, The Book of Film Noir (1993)
Nicholas Christopher, Somewhere in the Night (1998)
Joan Copjec, Shades of Noir (1993)
*Foster Hirsch, The Dark Side of the Screen: Film Noir (2001)
Foster Hirsch, Detours and Lost Highways: A Map of Neo-Noir (1999)
*Frank Krutnik, In a Lonely Street: Film Noir, Genre, Masculinity (1991)
*Ann E. Kaplan, Women in Film Noir (1999)
Arthur Lyons, Death on the Cheap: B Movies of Film Noir (2000)
James F. Maxfield, The Fatal Woman: Sources of Male Anxiety in American Film Noir 1941-1991 (1996)
Eddie Muller, Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir (1998)
Eddie Muller, Dark City Dames : The Wicked Women of Film Noir (2002)
James Naremore, More Than Night: Film Noir in Its Contexts (1998)
R. Robert Palmer, Hollywood's Dark Cinema (1994)
Gene D. Phillips, Creatures of Darkness: Raymond Chandler, Detective Fiction, and Film Noir (2000)
*Spencer Selby, Dark City: The Film Noir (1997)
*Alain Silver & Elizabeth Ward, Film Noir Encyclopedia (1992)
*Alain Silver etal, Film Noir Reader, v.1-2 (1996, 1999) [there's also v.3 of interviews which I don't have]
J.P. Telotte, Voices in the Dark: The Narrative Patterns of Film Noir (1989)

Picture books, etc:
Lawrence Bassof, Crime Scenes: Movie Poster Art of the Film Noir (1997)
The Little Black & White Book of Film Noir [quotations] (1992)
Alain Silver & James Ursini, The Noir Style (1999)
Peggy Thompson & Saeko Usukawa, Hard Boiled: Great Lines from Classic Noir Films (1995)

BFI Film Classics series:
Jim Kitses, Gun Crazy (1996)
Dana Polan, In a Lonely Place (1993)
Colin McArthur, The Big Heat (1992)
Richard Shickel, Double Indemnity (1992)
David Thomson, The Big Sleep (1997)

[I also have books on Chandler, Hitchcock, and Lang]

5 Greatest noirs (however that person defines the genre) (In no order)

Out of the Past
Double Indemnity
Big Sleep. The
Touch of Evil (a perfect coda to that era)
Big Heat, The

3 Historically important 'noirs'
Not sure I'm qualified to answer this in its' literal sense. Important to the genre...

M
Maltese Falcon, The
Big SLeep, The


2 Otherwise interesting 'noir' films
Blade Runner
Gunfighter, The (One of the best "westerns" period. Astonishingly effective cross of genres(western and film noir). Although, I'm a firm beliver that this mix is not a large stretch. Many westerns just carry a noirish element to them, even if not labeled as such.) Almost an Anthony Mann quality to it.

I’ll add some nominations, but I don’t think I can categorize them. Especially as, how many times can you nominate the same films in the ‘greatest’ list. Also, in the spirit of Herb’s plea for some foreign films I think I’ll concentrate on those, as I think that the American films will get well represented (I’m taking the Rosenbaum approach, George ). If Crawdaddy, Herb, Walter and others with more film noir knowledge disagree and think the genre should be limited to American films—I’ll not bother to protest.

Le Cercle Rouge—saw this last year in the theater, as a restored print was making the rounds. Melville is on target all the way.

The Naked Kiss—I may have missed some of the discussion, but so far Sam Fuller does not appear to be mentioned.

The Element of Crime—OK, I could argue that this is not film noir being in color and being pretty recentl. But Von Trier still limits the palate and otherwise everything is in place.

The Killers—so far (although this one has been discussed) no one has nominated it. Plus I just recently watched it agiain.

Mona Lisa—this too is in color (bright color in fact) and outside of the time period, but a fine performance by Bob Hoskins

I was gone for the weekend, but now I'm back in town.



It usually stops it from being good Jazz, but music is a different kettle of fish. Music involves one to ten players performing (I'm using an average, I know there are plenty of groups with more or less members), so they have the ability to focus their music on one genre or on many, they can be as diverse as they want. If someone grew up only listening to Jazz, they would probably want to play it, but they could only copy it. It also depends on what type of Jazz they are playing, but for the most part Jazz isn't just playing aseries of notes in a row, it's feeling, it's the same reason white folks can't play the blues (but you're talking to a guy who thinks that the blues ended in the 1950's), we jsut don't have the history to be able to shape that into a sound that you know comes from somewhere real.

Enough about music. I've agree to change the termanology used from Movement to well, something else, but I still have yet to see any strong arguments for it being a genre. Every other genre (Western, Drama, Sci-Fi, Horror, Action, and all of the sub-genres Slasher, Futuristic, War, Coming-of-Age etc.) all have something absolute that links them together. I haven't seen one link that is in every Noir. Other then perhaps a sense of style. I'm fairly comfertable calling noir a style, but I still don't think it does it justice.

Greatest, Important, Others eh?

OK

Greatest:

The Killers (1946)
In A Lonely Place
Raw Deal
D.O.A.
Out Of The Past

Important:

I Wake Up Screaming (some call it the first true noir)
Touch of Evil (some call it last)
Detour
Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (some call these the meanest noirs ever)

Other:

As has been mentioned before; Night of the Hunter is a movie I consider to be a noir, but I guess some wouldn't.
The proto-noirs of The Roaring Twenties and You Only Live Once.
M is just a great movie, don't know how "noir" is was, but Lang and Lorre would become associated with it later in their careers.
As for modern noirs, I'm pretty sure I'm clear on my position, that being said the only film I can think of that would fall into that category would be Panic Room. Other then the obvious Treasure of the Sierra Madre/The Killing end scene. The whole movie is based on darkness and shadow, strange angles, and a small story about low-criminals trying to make that "one big score". The lead villain is conflicted and yet there is a sense that fate has already determined what would happen the moment they enter the house. It acheives these without reverting to B/W filming, setting it in the forties/fifties, making everyone wear fedoras and say "dame" alot.

Fuller didn't make a lot of noirs, I'm not sure if Naked Kiss is one, had id been made 10 years earlier there would be no doubt, but the miniskirts, the frankness of the conversations and the sixties ciolor schemes just take me out of it as a noir. As movie, it's great.

Fuller's Pickup on South Street is amongst the best noirs and is available on DVD in a real nice transfer.

I would also say to Herb that the consensus list is good except that you'll only get a true consensus on "B" pictures, as one of your references is "Death on the Cheap" great reference, but it does have a narrower focus.

Okay this may very well be the toughest post ever, but here goes.

5 Greatest Noirs:

- Double Indemnity (1944)
- In a Lonely Place (1950)
- The Killers (1946)
- The Maltese Falcon (1941)
- Out of the Past (1947)

3 Important Noirs:

- You Only Live Once (1937)
- Laura (1944)
- Raw Deal (1948)

2 Others:

- Pickup on South Street (1953)
- D.O.A. (1950)


It's funny, when put into the context of "important", all of a sudden your favorites might not qualify...

Not to sidetrack this, but I don't think that's necessarily true. There are just as virulent discussions about the definitions of those genres as film noir. Hell, there was a real debate a while back about science fiction (some think films like Star Wars are, some think films like Star Wars aren't).

You know, the debate about whether noir needs to be American or in a certain time frame reminded me of an argument I had with a friend in grad school. He was a big fan of a poem called "The Bridge", which took the author something like 20 years to write. Part of what made it so great for him was that it would take so long and so many drafts. I argued that if the author had sat down, and on his first draft, in one day written the exact same poem, that it would be just as great. He said no, it wouldn't be, though most of his argument was the specious "it couldn't be done", since no matter how unlikely, it certainly could be done.

So, my question is this. If I showed you a newly discovered film noir from 1947, and everyone agreed it was a great film noir, and then I revealed that it had been made in 2004, would it suddenly not be a film noir? And if you agree with that, what if I said, "sorry, trick question, the film actually was made in 1947", does it suddenly become film noir again? It might be nearly impossible to make a film in 2004 that could convince viewers that it was made in 1947, but it's certainly a possibility, and would such a film be any less deserving of the film noir title than the exact same film, had it actually been made 57 years earlier?

George -- a gentle suggestion: Might you also want to report the number of nominations per film? It's not too late, and could help separate the great from just the spectacular.

Here are my nominations:

1 Greatest:
Big Sleep
Double Indemnity
Killers (1946)
Murder, My Sweet
Out of the Past

2 Historically important:
Detour
Maltese Falcon
Touch of Evil

3 Other:
Gilda
In a Lonely Place

Besides film titles, actors, directors, and film style, one important noir dimension has barely been mentioned: Writers! Where would noir be without James M. Cain, Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett, Patricia Highsmith, and Cornell Woolrich?

(Here again, I reveal my bookish inclinations.)

I don't think so.

Doesn't the Coen's The Man Who Wasn't There qualify as Noir? I don't think many people would argue that it isn't. Then again, those who consider Film Noir to be a "movement" may argue the point based on when the film was made, since the Film Noir "movement" is arguably over.

Well, it's my fault for not being clearer, and it doesn't help that this is in the middle of a thread.

Given the way this is going, I guess it makes more sense to just tally votes without an official 'nomination' process. So, I will go back and tally the counts.

Lew, I think your the only one who was really 'nominating' instead of voting, so I'm going to just let you revote. Also, in fairness to everyone, Dave, you listed one too many 'important' films, so I'm not going to count the last one.

Again, this is my fault for not being clearer, so I apologize.

I'll be back with an update shortly.

Current voting:

Greatest:
4 - Double Indemnity
4 - Out of the Past
3 - The Big Sleep
3 - The Killers (1946)
2 - The Maltese Falcon
2 - Touch of Evil
2 - In A Lonely Place
1 - Sunset Blvd.
1 - The Big Heat
1 - Raw Deal
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Murder, My Sweet

Important:
2 - M
2 - The Maltese Falcon
2 - Detour
1 - The Big Clock
1 - This Gun For Hire
1 - The Big Sleep
1 - I Wake Up Screaming
1 - Touch of Evil
1 - You Only Live Once
1 - Laura
1 - Raw Deal

Other:
1 - The Night of the Hunter
1 - Red Rock West
1 - Blade Runner
1 - The Gunfighter
1 - The Roaring Twenties
1 - You Only Live Twice
1 - Pickup on South Street
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Gilda
1 - In A Lonely Place

The idea will be to compile a list of 50 films, in the same proportion as the voting (i.e., 25 greatest, 15 important, 10 other) that would make a solid foundation of film noir, and start a challenge to see those of the 50 films you haven't seen. Top vote getters will be in, and I'll do run-off voting as necessary. I'll have to do some tweaking, but those films that are showing up across categories, will get their total votes counted. In other words, D.O.A. actually has 2 votes now. Still, I think it's important to have people vote in the categories, to keep an approximate balance of the different types of films.