*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread - Page 15

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Sorry to bring this topic back up, but I got into a ridiculous discussion the other day with my film studies professor who now claims that Citizen Kane was somehow a direct influence and impetus to film noir and is somehow related in it's expressionistic advancements which I find absolutely reidiculous. I didn't even know how to engage the discussion other than to quietly role my eyes in the back of the room. We debated it for a few minutes after class, it's not the first time he's made such silly remarks.. but he asked me to explain to him my reasoning for challenging his statements at the next class. I think he initially even tried to claim that Kane was an early induction into noir. I don't even know what to say... what are your thoughts ont his if any?

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

I did acknowledge that Robert, but I don't see how any elements of Kane could be directly purpoted to the advancement or influence of Noir as a movement?


It's not like Welles introduced anything so radically different in his approach as familiarized in Noir pictures from that point on, that hadn't already been accepted or attempted in earlier German and Russian expressionist and montage film.

Sure Welles broke much ground with Citizen Kane and was an influence to many, but I'm sure you can draw similar instances from countless films predating it as well that would be seen in elelemnts of post war noir in the years to follow.

I wouldn't be so liberal as to assume that any noirs produced after Kane would have consciously drawn inspiration or even referential from the narrative so much as the way the directors simply chose to tell their stories in a filmic sense. And on an ostensibly shorter budget.

I can't see any one aspect of Toland's photography or Welle's direction in depth and deep focus, angular shots and lighting that hadn't been previously achieved. Not to detract from Kane's accomplishments as it was very well among the first films to put them all to such effective use.

But I don't recognize any comparissons between Citizen Kane and film noir from a progressive point of view.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, many directors immigrated from Europe as a result of the war and involved themeselves in Hollywood's industry and it's assumed drew greater influence from the earlier works of Lang and Murneau, etc. in technical approach than any direct influence that could be had from Citizen Kane.

I see similar aspects in Kane and certain noirs... but those same aspects can be noticed in most films of the period following Welles acclaimed production.

I just don't see why this one film in particular should have any more of an effect in light of what seemed a natural development of film noir from the pre-code and gangster pictures of the thirties than any other picture that might have utilized similar examples of the type of cinematography or aesthetic?

I certainly don't see anything in the theme, approach or look of Kane that would suggest noir.


Welles did turn out a number of later films in his career that would certainly qualify, but I completely disagree with this loose analogy.

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Dead on.

All great films influence films that follow it, but to suggest that film noir was influenced significantly by Citizen Kane breaks down if you think about it.

Key Points

a. Many film noirs were B films with very limited budgeting. Lighting that appeared moody was sometimes that way because they didn't have the equipment or time to mess around with shots. That some of these film directors were trying to do thought provoking work based on Citizen Kane would be a major streeeeeeettttcccch.

b. If Citizen Kane has strong aspects of film noir than I guess The Godfather does too. After all, both films are about guys that pulled themselves up, got rich and powerful only to be unhappy with the result. The point being that if you stretch connections too far they become meaningless.

c. The point you made. One could make a much better case that Metropolis (1927) years earlier made a much bigger impression on film noir. Both have the classic issue of the femme fetale as well as Lang's impressive use of angles and light. The case is even stronger from works that directly reference Metropolis such as Blade Runner. Connections? Brainy guy high up in the tower running the show with filtered light coming in on his office. Both brought down by a robot. Enter the beautiful woman. Saint or Whore? Woman or Robot?

Marco,

Just remember that it is hard to prove a negative. In other words, why wasn't Citizen Kane influential to Film Noirs is the way your professor is trying to spin this. Politely remind him that your contention is the challenge of why is it?

Your professor is getting slick asking a question with a question and now putting you on the defensive. Which is his perogative. Ask him some questions, what film noirs directly reference Citizen Kane? What filmmakers have cited Citizen Kane as important to their noir films?

Politely asking a few good questions can often allow you to decide whether your professor's opinion is based on an informed based or loose conjecture.

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

In an effort to try and get a better handle on what Film Noir is, could someone give me a quick explanation on what a) German Expressionism is and b) what Italian Neo-Realism is. My understanding is that these two film movements were influencial to Film Noir. Thanks.

Greg

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

I would say the german expressionism influence is in the form (dark, moody), whereas Italian neo-realism's chief contribution is thematic -- the pessimism which permeates most film noirs.

--
H

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Hello, all. First, I apologize if this has been asked previously. I did a search but I didn't see this question previously.

Has anyone here purchased the new edition of 'Double Indemnity'? I am interested in how the xfr quality compares to the earlier release from Image. I read Barrie Maxwell's review over at the Digital Bits, but I'd like a little more info from someone that has viewed the new release.

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Robert, thanks for the info & links provided. After reading the other posts, I've decided to get the new release even though I have the Image DVD. DI is one of my all-time'ers in my collection. Besides, after spending 99% of my time on the TV/DVD forum & $'s on TV/DVD sets, I needed to branch out a little I just don't buy many DVD movies anymore. I have most of what I've wanted over the years in my collection with a couple of "wait for's":

I WALK ALONE (1948) Burt Lancaster / Lisabeth Scott / Kirk Douglas
INVISIBLE STRIPES (1939) George Raft / Humphrey Bogart / Jane Bryan

I've been waiting for these 2 but no word yet that I've heard. I asked Barrie Maxell over at the Digital Bits if he's heard any rumors about them, nothing so far. I'd also love to own the "Andy Hardy" series but there's ony 2 released on DVD.

Best surprises for me in '06 have been "G-MEN" & "SAN QUENTIN". Also, I bet the posters here loved "LAURA" finally getting to DVD!

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Herb - Thanks for referencing my list. If you read the discussion that precedes the list itself, you will learn that I put this together so that I could catch titles that may be considered as noir (beyond those 300+ titles in the Film Noir Encyclopedia, 3rd Ed.). I put together the "consensus list" when a friend complained that 800 titles were too many - and there are many great titles that didn't make it to that shorter list. As far as the "consensus list" itself goes - I don't really distinguish between those titles that receive 8/10 versus those with 10/10. If you look through the sources - one of them specialized in B movies and thus didn't list any A titles (ie, major studio A productions). That source cites many titles not discussed by others, but doesn't spend time on A titles such as DOUBLE INDEMNITY. Another source doesn't consider any title filmed in color to be noir - that leaves out LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN, NIAGARA and others. - Sidney Keywood

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Herb - Thanks for referencing my list of film noir titles. If you read the discussion that precedes the list itself, you will learn that I put this together so that I could catch titles that may be considered as noir (beyond those 300+ titles in the Film Noir Encyclopedia, 3rd Ed.). I put together the "consensus list" when a friend complained that 800 titles were too many - and there are many great titles that didn't make it to that shorter list. As far as the "consensus list" itself goes - I don't really distinguish between those titles that receive 8/10 versus those with 10/10. If you look through the sources - one of them specialized in B movies and thus didn't list any A titles (ie, major studio A productions). That source cites many titles not discussed by others, but doesn't spend time on A titles such as DOUBLE INDEMNITY. Another source doesn't consider any title filmed in color to be noir - that leaves out LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN, NIAGARA and others. I hope this explanation helps.

Sidney Keywood

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Wow who knew there was a film noir thread here! Cool! Anyone else have the Film Noir vol 4 set from Warner. There are some really interesting titles here. Among my favorites are Crime Wave and Mystery Street. The commentary on Crime Wave with Eddie Muller and James Ellroy alone is worth the price!

Doug

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

I find Muller to be the least pretentious and far more entertaining that some of the "film historians" on some of these commentaries. And Elroy is just on fire on the Crime Wave commentary. Every time he sees an actual LA location being used you can practically hear him jumping out of his seat with excitement.

Doug

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

I was watching the film Too Late For Tears the other day. What an interesting noir. Certainly there have been some terrific femmes fatale, but Lizabeth Scott as Jane Palmer needs to go on the short list of the all time greats in the role.

I watched the film on a cheapo DVD release that left a lot to be desired but still really enjoyed it.

Of note, the opening musical theme is terrific. It really grabs you and gets you immediately into the mood for noir. Admittedly the first few seconds sound like you're watching a film about a ship on the high seas (or the like) but once the harps kick in and the trumpets follow it's all noir and really interesting. I've linked the audio in a short audio clip below. Hit the small blue arrow on the far left if interested in hearing it.


boomp3.com

Re: *** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

I watched the film, THE BIG STEAL recently from the last Warner's Film Noir Boxset.

I think that calling it noir is a joke. Chase film yes, romantic comedy yes, but noir?

The commentary by Richard Jewell brings up a very valid point, the start makes absolutely no sense with the rest of the film.

The chase was a lot of fun, but some parts that weren't suppose to be funny were laughable. Such as Robert Mitchum (in closeup) moving the steering wheel left and right absurdly and the cars going terrifically around the corners but rocking left and right down straight roads like a drunken sailor.

Can't really say that Jane Greer does much for me but the commentary says that Lizbeth Scott bailed after Mitchum was arrested for possession of marijuana. I would have liked to have seen her in the role.