| If this set were to include something along the lines of the 1975 Farewell My Lovely or a spoof-noir film like Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid (I know it’s already on DVD but bear with this example & pretend it’s not) would that diminish your interest in the set as a whole since this goes against what you believe noir to be? |
Jim, not an easy question to answer with just a simple yes or no. The bargain of the box purchase might be enough for me to pull the trigger (if there were films in the set I needed). Would I be disappointed with its inclusion in terms of its representation of film noir? Absolutely. But the difference here Jim, is that noir as a (whatever you want to call it – genre – movement – whatever), is generally defined as something that was produced between 1940 and 1960. One of my all time favorite films would be the epitome of film noir if it were widely accepted that films produced post 1960 be considered;
True Confessions. I don’t think the film lacks a single so-called required characteristic, including the period, the murder of a prostitute, corruption within the Catholic Church, hard boiled detectives, set in Los Angeles circa 1940’s. I adore the film (and can’t wait for its subsequent DVD release BTW), but would be every bit as disappointed with its inclusion of Volume #2 (it’s a U.A. [now MGM] title, but just trying to make a point). The difference in our comparisons is that CBN not only contains a number of elements (never mind the inclusion of noir stalwarts Ryan, Stanwyck and Lang) but it was set during the period that is generally agreed upon as classic noir. So yes, I do have an understanding of where you’re coming from, but in my opinion the films can’t even be remotely considered unless they fall within those time guidelines.
| My concept of noir has to do with the type of film (crime/thriller/mystery/suspense) & straight-up Melodramas, Westerns, War films, etc, don’t fit into the equation for me, sorry. |
And as I’ve said Jim, to a great extent, I agree with you – certainly when it comes to westerns (although many are mentioned in numerous noir writings – none more than
Pursued) but I just can’t buy into the western genre being nourish. War films are a slightly different animal. A Sherman tank climbing a steep hill or troops storming a beach or a battleship lobbing rounds… also doesn’t do it for me. However, the intelligence/spy/espionage side of things can be quite nourish and are generally films that I can buy into, in terms of noir. e.g.
Hangmen Also Die, Journey Into Fear, Cloak And Dagger and
Notorious etc.
| Of course it was all staged, it’s called acting. Your point seems to be that the props, costumes, and music etc. are genuine to the period. Well if you buy that logic none of us would ever get into a Western as we would be too distracted by things that are “staged.” See my point? |
Rich,
Acting…? Yes. The surroundings, the costumes, props, music and the overall general mood of the country…? No. These things simply can’t be substituted without distractions or reminders. But the difference here is that westerns are generally defined in a much less complicated manner (I’m not demeaning westerns, just attempting to define in an overly simplistic manner) by things like cowboys, ranches, horses. War films; tanks, troops, fighter planes, battleships.
Here’s the difference; just because two detectives pull up and arrest a guy for murder and take him back to the station and interrogate him under bright lights in a smoke filled room, doesn’t necessarily guarantee the film is going to be noir. We use these often cited characteristics and elements to guide us but it’s the overall general mood and principle atmosphere of the film that actually defines whether or not the film is noir. Precisely the reason why many non-criminal films of the period can be classified as noir. You either feel it, or you don’t.
| Matter of fact, I think that a case could be made for the 1950’s being a fairly friendly decade for most Americans. The war was over, people getting married and having families, newly created jobs, G.I. bills and grants provided for unparallel education opportunities with more new homeowners than any other prior time in American history. |
Yes, but it was also the start of the Cold-War and the threat (just after WWII) of nuclear annihilation was ever-present and forefront on the minds of many. We’ve seen the civil defense public service announcements – adults laying down against brick walls – kids crouched down under their desks in school. Do you think we (as a general society) are less susceptible to the same dangers in 2005 with the proliferation of technology etc…? Absolutely not. But, we are not living in fear like our parents or grandparents did 50 years ago.
| As far as this “lions, tigers and bears” view of “anxiety, pessimism, suspicion and fear” dominating the 1940-1960 seems more of the academia way of creating a theory to support a theory. |
Rich, like your statement regarding these films not being a “genre” as that would infer the meeting, collaboration and intent to make such films (agreed, BTW), but the time frame wasn’t simply pulled from a hat as a matter of academia. Obviously the subject has been widely written about and explored and that time frame is merely a common thread – a common denominator of when the majority of these films were produced. So one must sit back and ask why that is? Well, obviously the war and subsequent Cold War were the two biggest events to impact the nation during that time period. The films were obviously a by-product of the times due to the circumstances that existed – the very reason, IMO that they’ll never be replicated.
| Hirsch suggest that things like mood and lighting of many noir films were not always intentional but a result of small budgets. However, a low budget picture doesn’t necessarily have to have a second-class director. |
Agree 100%. Some of my favorite noirs are gritty B-noir pictures that came out of PRC, Eagle Lion, Rank etc. and the limited budget was absolutely responsible for the end result.
| Nor do I buy into the logic that noir is exclusively an American form of expression. To do so would to ignore European films such as Melville’s Bob Le Flambeur, Dassin’s (from my home state) Rififi or Losey’s Time Without Pity. |
Again, agreed 100%. I will say that many of these films, however (depending on their location setting), don’t necessarily exude quite the same feel as say some of the American films noir (
Sweet Smell of Success – New York,
Dark Passage – San Francisco or
He Walked By Night – Los Angeles). I’ve been on a British noir kick lately and watched many films like
Obsession, The Frightened City, Hell is a City, The Criminal and
Victim. All of which are fine films and ones I certainly feel are noir – on varying levels.
and I’m sure Armin can speak for himself but…..
)
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