*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread - Page 11

>>Actually he quit, remember? They were begging him to come back.

No. Janoth comes in and says that if he doesn't see his current assignment he's through at his company and further Janoth would blackball him at all other publications. George says that that is okay with him.

The blonde calls him shortly after he is been canned and George tells her he has been sacked.

Them begging him to come back just makes it worse, he should be asking himself, wtf is going on here?


>> And George, the golden boy of Crimewave publications (or whatever it was called) can't put two and two together? Even if he didn't know what was going on for sure, checking out the blonde should have been his first step.

after setting up the investigation, it kind of was. He went to her apartment and found the body. Remember, he couldn't tell the other investigators her name because it wasn't known. Then when he left the apartment and the dead body, he spotted and talked to one of his investigators and played dumb. He knew if he didn't step in the invesigation would have lead to him. Going to the police wouldn't have helped him much because he was seen by everyone in NY the night before with the victim and the murder weapon. How could he prove his innocence? [quote]

Nonsense. Proving his innocence and Janoth's guilt is as easy as telling the truth. That and Janoth's fatal flaw, that there was no way for him to know the name Jefferson Randolph then to be with the blonde on the night of her death. Period. Look, stop dancing around. If you can explain how Janoth can get away with that let's have it. The blonde was a kept woman he was writing checks to. Not to mention Janoth sets up a war bond scandal to find Jefferson Randolph would come back as impossible to explain.

Our other key difference is one of profile. You believe that it is plausible that George would make the rather simple-minded mistakes he did. My point is that you don't build up a man to be the master tactician - a guy that finds criminals when the police can't - and then have him make mistakes grandpa wouldn't make. Clearly, Janoth is looking for Jefferson Randolph so that he can the one eye-witness to him being at her apartment that night silenced. Knowing that, what possible motivation would George not have to go to the police and end this whole affair before he is found out and then loses the appearance of innocence?

One could easily see that fate had a hand in Al Robert's bad luck of getting a ride from a man that dies while in the man's car. The same would go for coming across the quite improbable factor of the one hitchhiker that knew the dead man. Certainly, at the end of the film, Al blames his own situation specifically on fate. However, is he correct?

Isn't he the one with a lot of money in his pocket, on the run in a stolen car that decides it a good idea to pick up a hitchhiker? Isn't he the one that doesn’t kick her out of the car when he had the chance? Isn't he the one that figures out (a couple days too late) that if Vera can lie (or just tell the cops) about him that he can lie about her (with her now losing all leverage over him)? Isn't Al the one that didn't call Vera's bluff by letting her complete her call to the cops? Doesn't Al have to take responsibility for not getting on with his life - particularly when he learns that the cops are after someone with another name? Doesn't he make his own fate by worrying about some witness remembering that he was with Vera, as if people in a city of millions of other people are likely even to remember Vera, let alone make some association? Isn't he that refuses to move forward in his own life?

Another nice element of the film is that the film need not be taken as a noir drama but rather as a noir dream. At the end of the film, did we really witness what happened to Al, or just his own delusional fantasies?

One thing that puzzled me is the continuity errors of cars driving on the wrong side of the road (as if in England). Stock footage might have been used but seemingly not generic stock footage. We do see Al thumbing a ride from the left side of the street and then getting into the left side of a truck (while another car bombs by on the right). We also get an even more convincing shot where we see Al getting into a wagon loaded with hay with the driver's wheel on the right side. Can anyone shed some light on this?

I think what's being forgotten here is perspective from the characters point of view. When George get's the call from Janoth, he really believes that Janoth is looking for the "guy that's running with his girl" he has no idea that Janoth and York have been playing a cruel game with each other for years. After being fired/quitting (as both did happen), George believes if he's found out to be the man at Pauline's, he'll be publicly destroyed by Janoth out of spite and general hatred (Janoth is shown to be not above such actions).

When he finds out Pauline is dead, he already knows that Janoth has killed her and that he's being made out to be the fall guy. Unfortunately he also knows it'll be real easy for them to do it. The maid's story has already been introduced (that Janoth can produce a maid to say she found the body and heard the name JR). Had he gone to the police at anytime before the final minutes he would have sunk his own ship.

When George is "pinning" the killing on Hagen, he's only doing it to coax a reaction from Janoth and get Hagen to switch sides (hence being so ready with the "will you testify in court" line).

In this day and age it's hard enough to go after people with lot's of money, especially people that run huge media empires, imagine the difficulty in going after someone like that in the 40's, when you know you got drunk with the victim, bought the murder weapon with the victim and slept at the victim's house on the night of the murder. That's the stuff your framers won't have to invent.

His boss only gave him his alias... not the woman's name or his. His boss didn't mention murder. So if he went to the police how would the police link his boss or anyone to the murder? There's no way. Unless he admitted that he was the alias mentioned which he probably wouldn't because his wife would then leave him. And that's the reason he took the case in the first place. Also, if he went to the police there were a bunch of witnesses that saw him with the girl on the bender. And no one knew Charles Laughton went there at that moment, nor were there witnesses. So who would the police blame? The guy who called it in the took off out of town only to call the police and try to pin it on his boss that got rid of him earlier in the day.

"Al blames his own situation specifically on fate. However, is he correct?"

I also agree with your take rich. Most of the commentary points out the that Al's own narrative is, as they say, "unreliable." He is overdoing the fate thing, powerful as it is, to cover his own contributions. The commentary also points out how Al's description of his relationship with Sue exceeds what we see on screen.

"At the end of the film, did we really witness what happened to Al, or just his own delusional fantasies?"

I'd really like your and others takes on this. The commentary is split on whether the end was real or imagined. On the one hand, we come back from his flashback and clearly see him walk out of the diner and onto the roadside. There are no visual cues such as fade outs to indicate the scene is a figment of his imagination. On the other hand, his narration (unreliable as it is) is speculative of future events rather than declarative of events that have already occurred. To me, an imagined ending would seem to follow the whole thrust of the film despite the total absence of visual cues.

>>I think what's being forgotten here is perspective from the characters point of view. When George get's the call from Janoth, he really believes that Janoth is looking for the "guy that's running with his girl" he has no idea that Janoth and York have been playing >>a cruel game with each other for years.
The blonde tells George that Janoth is blacklisting her. That should be a pretty good clue, don’t you think?
>>After being fired/quitting (as both did happen), George believes if he's found out to be the man at Pauline's, he'll be publicly destroyed by Janoth out of spite and general hatred (Janoth is shown >>to be not above such actions).
Nope. If he was so worried about that he would have stayed with Janoth instead of joining his wife in West Virginia.
>>When he finds out Pauline is dead, he already knows that Janoth >>has killed her and that he's being made out to be the fall guy. Unfortunately he also knows it'll be real easy for them to do it. The maid's story has already been introduced (that Janoth can produce a maid to say she found the body and heard the name JR). Had he gone to the police at anytime before the final minutes he would >>have sunk his own ship.
More correctly he knows that Janoth is after the witness Janoth saw leaving by stairs the night of the murder. Whether it is to set him up or just to eliminate him is unclear.
Janoth’s story about the maid has not been introduced until later in the day, after George spends time tracking down the taxi. Which George already knows is false as the doorman already told him that the maid has been a vacation for several days. You’re just supporting my point, that Janoth is unprepared with an alibi for the circumstances and would have lied to the police thus putting the noose around his own neck. Postponement of going to the police just gives Janoth more time to get his act together.
>>When George is "pinning" the killing on Hagen, he's only doing it to coax a reaction from Janoth and get Hagen to switch sides (hence >>being so ready with the "will you testify in court" line).
Totally unnecessary as police questioning of Janoth’s and Hagen would have got a good result – what with George’s prior testimony.

>>In this day and age it's hard enough to go after people with lot's of money, especially people that run huge media empires, imagine the difficulty in going after someone like that in the 40's, when you know you got drunk with the victim, bought the murder weapon with the victim and slept at the victim's house on the night of the >>murder. That's the stuff your framers won't have to invent.
Therefore your logic depends on George being better off going after powerful men running huge media empires alonethan with help from the police. Interesting, thought process.

Perhaps you would do better to watch the film again.

>>His boss only gave him his alias... not the woman's name or his. His boss didn't mention murder. So if he went to the police how would the police link his boss or anyone to >>the murder? There's no way.

Yes. Way. Simple. The blonde he sees Janoth visiting is dead. George himself is the eyewitness and he knows that she is Janoth's "kept" woman. George therefore is the key link and Janoth doesn't even know it. He goes to the cops and Janoth has no alibi for knowing about Jefferson Randolph.

That all he needs. Plus obviously over time, checks written to the blonde, Steve seen returning the murder weapon to the bar, elevator operator talking about blonde visiting Janoth on his private elevator that day, taxi company records showing someone going to Steve's address after midnight ... you know .. little things like that.

>>Unless he admitted that he was the alias mentioned which he probably wouldn't because his wife would then leave him. And that's the reason he took the case in the first place. Also, if he went to the police there were a bunch of witnesses that saw him with the girl on the bender. And no one knew Charles Laughton went there at that moment, nor were there witnesses. So who would the police blame? The guy who called it in the took off out of town only to call the police and try to pin it on his boss that got rid >>of him earlier in the day.

Not at all. You yourself pointed out in an earlier post that George needs to determine that the girl is dead - which I agreed with you about.

That's not even possible. Obviously, George can not call in a murder he can't even know about until he gets Janoth's phone call when on his honeymoon.

To summarize, the straight-forward approach:


1. Go back to NYC, and check on the girl.
2. Leak to the press that Janoth and troops are scouring the ground looking for someone with the initials J.R.
3. Go directly to the police as the eyewitness, explaining that Janoth gave himself away by telling him an alias Janoth could not know about unless he was with the girl. End of story. The second part is probably not even necessary.

Bottom line. Plot point of Jefferson Randolph was a mistake as done. A plot point that they want you to forget. When George's own wife asked him why he didn't go to the police George answers "Why Janoth would have lots of alibis, Bill, Hagen - a dozen other peopel if necessary. Me, All I've got is myself"

Except it isn't true. George has two key pieces of information the writers want you to forget about (a) he is the witness (b) Jefferson Randolph. Perhaps the writers succeeded better with you than they did with me. In some ways, the whole 'George needs an alibi' business is simply a McGuffin. Advances the plot, but is meaningless in the end.

>>At the end of the film, did we really witness what happened to Al, or just his own delusional fantasies?"

I'd really like your and others takes on this. The commentary is split on whether the end was real or imagined. On the one hand, we come back from his flashback and clearly see him walk out of the diner and onto the roadside. There are no visual cues such as fade outs to indicate the scene is a figment of his imagination. On the other hand, his narration (unreliable as it is) is speculative of future events rather than declarative of events that have already occurred. To me, an imagined ending would seem to follow the whole thrust of the film >>despite the total absence of visual cues.

I wonder whether Al, not having his car is a visual clue?

"not having his car is a visual clue?"

We'll have to try again on this one. The opening shot establishes Al hitching to the diner.

I may have had the timing off on when the maids story was introduced, but it doesn't really change much. You have a belief that the police would believe George just like that. I am far more cynical when it comes to police involvement. The idea that a guy could accuse a media giant (who just fired him) for killing a girl that no one has seen him with, just because a guy who deserted his to drunkenly sleep at her place says so, is pretty trusting. Regardless of how he knows the name, it's not enough to clear George.

As for going up a agianst a media giant alone. It's better then going up against the same media giant when he has the help of the police and it actively using his publications to slander your name on every front page. And George did have a bit of an edge, he knew who Janoth was, but Janoth didn't know he was the witness.

This all speculation because the movie didn't happen that way. So it really doesn't matter, The Big Clock was a decent noir, but far from a classic.