*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread - Page 9

Robert, dead on.

I noticed something last night, as I watched Suddenly. I found many of the supporting characters wooden at best, but the dialog was nothing short of amazing, as find with film noir and neo-noir alike. In the case of the film Suddenly, I realized that this is one of the attributes that sets the genre, for lack of a universal term, apart. The dialog is so real. I swear I've had near identical conversations as these people. A film 50 years old, and the dialog and issues are very relevant to today's times.

Murder, My Sweet is a fine film, but there's no contest in my mind about the actors. Powell seems too petulent to me; as if he is trying too hard to be the tough guy. Bogart is the best of the Marlowes - confident, but not as much as his Sam Spade, cagey, witty and humane. And he handles a gun like he knows how to.

Although I thought Powell was good and refreshing (compared to the square-jawed tough guys like Mitchum and James Garner playing Marlowe) he doesn't compare to Bogie. Powell doesn't have a tough guy image and he has zero sex appeal.

But... ,like I said earlier, I still very much enjoyed Murder, My Sweet.

I think Powell is very much like Elliot Gould's Philip Marlowe in The Long Goodbye.

It's like George Lazenby's Bond. He's good and many think he fits the Bond mold the best. But he's no Connery. He could never be.

I enjoy both Bogie & Powell as Marlowe but I'll give a slight edge to Powell, who's a little more laconic, sarcastic & hard-boiled in the role.

I prefer Bogie's Sam Spade to to his Marlowe if that makes any difference.

How about the worst Marlowe? Of the ones I've seen I think I'd give the vote to Robert Montgomery in Lady in the Lake.

oh and finally watched Crossfire which was excellent. Robert Ryan really steals the show in this one.

Also caught the second pairing of Veronica Lake/Alan Ladd in The Glass Key, which was good but I didn't like it nearly as much as This Gun For Hire. Speaking of This Gun For Hire, anyone notice the strong similarities between this & Melville's Le Samourai mainly in the way Ladd's Raven character is portrayed (loner/animal lover/etc.). Even some shots are similar. weird.

on deck The Blue Dahlia & Kansas City Confidential

Can't really comment on best or worst as I haven't seen all the candidates. The list of Philip Marlowe's according to IMDB.com.

Humphrey Bogart (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Big Sleep, The (1946)

James Garner (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Marlowe (1969)

Elliott Gould (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Long Goodbye, The (1973)

Tomás Hanák (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Mazaný Filip (2003)

James Kirkwood (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Hired Wife (1934)

Robert Mitchum (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Farewell, My Lovely (1975)

George Montgomery (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Brasher Doubloon, The (1947)

Robert Montgomery (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Lady in the Lake (1947)

Dick Powell (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Murder, My Sweet (1944)

Stacy Keach also did a turn as Marlowe in a TV series back in the 80's.

Probably unfair since I haven't seen them all & don't remember Keach's or Mitchum's portrayals but I'll go with Elliott Gould as the worst. Really didn't care much for Altman's film either.

Powers Boothe should be on that list for
"Philip Marlowe, Private Eye" (1983)

I've heard his performance is very good.

oops - Did I say Stacy Keach? :b Yes it was Powers Booth in this and the TV series. I always get these two mixed up for some reason.

I excluded Philip Marlowe TV roles - after all this is the movie forum.

I forgot about Stacy Keach in Mike Hammer. I kind of liked that show.


rich_d, you're right. OOPS :b

Powell versus Bogart as Marlowe? Wonder what Chandler himself thought?

On the one hand, Luhr reports Chandler "felt Bogart was superior to Dick Powell." On the other hand, Gene Philips (Creatures of Darkness: Raymond Chandler, Detective Fiction, and Film Noir) reports that "Chandler affirmed later on that Powell came closest to his own conception of Marlowe." The two comments are not necessarily contradictory. The one is a performance comparison, while the other concerns which is closest to the source material.

Related Powell/Murder, My Sweet tidbits:

- MMS was not the first film adaptation of Chandler's Farewell, My Lovely. The inaugural adaptation was the third film in the RKO Falcon series, The Falcon Takes Over (1942). While the Falcon (starring George Saunders) replaces Marlowe, Chandler story elements that survive include the Moose Malloy, Velma, and Jessie Florian characters.

- MMS was a last minute title change from the novel's title. Market tests indicated that Farewell, My Lovely gave audience's the impression it was just another Powell musical – the baggage issue.

- Prior to landing MMS, Powell had unsuccessfully campaigned for the lead in . . . get this . . . Double Indemnity.

The Blue Dahlia is a strong noir. An entertaining murder mystery in which almost everyone is a valid suspect. The only problem I had was the somewhat hokey demise of the real killer in the end.

I'd rank the Ladd/Lake noirs accordingly
1. This Gun For Hire
2. The Blue Dahlia
3. The Glass Key

All are well worth the time.

Haven't seen Blue Dahlia yet, so I can't comment on it. I'm becoming a Noir DVD snob. This Gun for Hire was cool.

I did watch a few of the new Universal DVD noirs this week.

I watched The Big Clock last night. What a great movie! I read only ok reviews online, but the movie is excellent! The DVD transfer isn't as sharp as others release lately, but it's well worth the 12 bucks...

The other, Black Angel wasn't so great. Dan Duryea and Peter Lorre are in it, and those guys are noir giants. But what a disappointment. I had the movie figured out quick and Duryea wasn't the slimy bow-tie wearing blonde he usually plays. He even had black hair. Oh well.

I had the same hum-drum opinion as you re: The Black Angel which was easily the weakest film of the Universal noir discs.

I also agree on The Big Clock which seems to be very much under-appreciated.

I think I'm going to give Pickup on South Street another spin tonight as I'm still waiting for Kansas City Confidential to arrive from Netflix.

Wonderful

I have a different take on Black Angel, although certainly not among the best noirs, it nicely uses Lorre (as well as Duryea) against type. Well not so much against type, but Lorre is the red herring and as he usually is a bit player or a bad guy, this was a bit of a surprise. Same with Duryea, sure he's usually the straight up slime ball, in this you weren't sure about him 'till the end (at least I wasn't the first time I saw it).

And hey, the opening shot was great.

I'll throw .02 cents into the Marlowe question. I've heard the same comments that Glenn R has, and I agree with his take. Marlowe is a hard character to portray faithfully, he doesn't lend himself to the screen very well. It's well and good to have a relatively moralistic, non-tough guy, non-womanizing detective in a novel, but to bring that to life on the screen you'd almost have to make him even weaker then Powell and how much fun would that be. To me The Big Sleep is a better movie and a better performance, but I am a sucker for both "B"s.

I really don't think of any of the actors who have played Marlowe as "being" Marlowe. The real Marlowe is in the novels, in the movies it's the plots that drive them for me and name of the PI is irrelevent.


Pickup on South Street is among my faves (I can't recall, but if it didn't make my top ten, it was close)

Man, I take three days out for the cottage, and I miss almost 40 posts...





Todd... the list is done (well sorta, I tweak it on a regular basis). I just have to figure out how to rate these titles in a manner that everyone will find useful. Unfortunately, the majority of them don't look like the new WB boxed set...

A pretty comprehensive list of what’s available can be found here:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=141098


As for Powell vs. Bogart, as I said in my review, you’ll probably find no bigger fan of Bogart on the forum, than yours truly... but I would still give the edge to Powell in MMS. Bogart was always perfect in every way; tough guy, always calculating, always cool, charismatic, great dialogue, never ever impulsive.

Powell was the antithesis of Bogie in a part that begged for a guy who was more of a putz than Bogart could ever have been. Typically, the role called for a guy who was slightly funny, certainly a guy who knew he wasn’t immune from getting his ass kicked (watch the interaction between him and Moose… it is priceless), he was far from charismatic and he was super impulsive. Part of the film’s success is the fact, we wouldn’t expect this guy to find our house keys, but he manages to pull it off… if it were Bogart, would there be any doubt…?

But Dave is right though. When I watch The Big Sleep, I really don't connect both films. They just basically share the same name.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) I forget the rest, but I was totally into it when I saw it on TV.

In Cold Blood is not a noir in my opinion, but it's a great movie!

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

eifert: It's gotta be Otto Preminger's Angel Face (1952). Mitchum is an ambulance driver who gets ensnared by femme fatale Jean Simmons. I believe Herb also just saw it.

That's it. Angel Face. Another not available on tape or DVD. And I guess they rigged the car to go in reverse.

Damn. Shoulda added it to my best noir list. Too late to bump out Roger Rabbit. (ha) Acutally I think RR is a good addition, as would Dead Men Don't Wear Plad. Parody can help define any movie type.

Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is great, but my all-time favorite noir parody is My Favorite Brunette (1947). None other than Bob Hope apes Alan Ladd with Dorothy Lamour as the mysterious beauty. Mine is a poor quality Alpha DVD -- the only Alpha I own. I don't know if it's representative of their other discs, but I personally wouldn't put up with such poor quality for my core noir collection. But since this one is a noir-lite . . . plus it can be had for a song. There's also a Madacy disc, but wouldn't know if its any better. P.S. Don't confuse Brunette with Hope's My Favorite Blonde (1942).

And I found another Murder, My Sweet tidbit: Director Edward Dmytrk initially wanted John Garfield to play Marlowe.

Re: My Favorite Brunette.

The best quality dvd I've seen of this is by Marengo (a double feature with Road to Bali). It's still not good, but better than the others. The Madacy is the worst of all. Avoid at all costs!

Glenn, I did indeed and it is a fabulous movie. I finally got a chance to screen my R2 Éditions Montparnasse DVD version, which was very good but not up to the recent WB transfers. Considering Angel Face was an RKO production, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see it included in the next WB boxed set.