Zenith DVB 318 & LG 7832 DVD Player merged thread - Page 11

The pixel cropping is basically just a hunk of the righthand side of the picture that is chopped off - like 4% or something.

I'm kind of with greg_t here. The cropping and green push are troublesome. That's why I'm going to keep an eye out on the reviews for the new Denon 1910 and 1710.

Plus, you know the oddest thing? I hate how I have to PRESS DOWN HARD on the buttons on the unit for it to register. I kept hitting the power button and it didn't go off, then PRESSSSSS it down to make sure it powered off. Kind of silly complaint, though.

Can someone elaborate on the zoom capability? Is it true incremental zoom or just the usual 1/2x 2x 4x etc? Does it have x/y scaling ability?

And is there a way to tell if my set "locks in full" or not? I'd like to get this player but if I can't watch 4:3 films properly than that's a deal breaker.

Jean,
Zenith is currently working on a firmware upgrade but there is no release date set yet.

John,
Pixel cropping means that parts of the image are being cropped and lost. The following is from Kris Deering of the Secrets of Home Theater and HIFI which give the values for pixel cropping and other tests. These results are from 1080i output:

"Blacker then Black - Pass
White Level - 102 IRE
Pixel Cropping - Top 3 Bottom 0 Left 3 Right 15
Y/C Delay - +5ns for both Pb and Pr from Y
Frequency response : (1) 0db, (2) -.04db, (3) -.09db, (4) +.44db, (5) +.87db, (6) +1.05db, (7) +.97db

So it still has a few issues, namely the slight Y/C delay and severe pixel cropping. Frequency response is okay, but not superb".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=secrets

So 3 pixels are cropped from the top, 0 from the bottom, 3 from the left, and 15 from the right. The left and right may not be as noticeable depending on the amount of overscan on your set. I can easily see that the top is being cropped because the black bar is smaller than it is using my Pansonic XP30, which has no pixel cropping. In my opinion, this is unacceptable because I'm losing image. Hopefully this will be resolved with the upgrade.

So how would I detect this? Maybe compare with my old player I suppose? I sure didn't notice any cropping going on when I compared, but I wasn't really looking for it either. It sure fills my native widescreen the same on 1.78:1 stuff, of that I am sure.

Try a 2.35 ratio dvd on your old player. This assumes that your old player does not crop pixels. I noticed right away that with the zenith the top black bar is smaller than when using my XP30. Bottom black bar is unchanged from the Panny, which is backed up by Kris Deerings finding that 0 pixels are cropped on the bottom bar with the Zenith. The XP30 is known to not crop pixels, has white and black levels correct, etc, so it is known to produce a very accurate image. You may not notice the sides so much depending on the amount of overscan, but you may on the right side since it crops 15 pixels.

It doesn't matter what the aspect ratio of the film is, the pixels are being cropped. Since you won't get any black bars on a 1.78, you may not notice it. On a 2.35 I saw it immediatly.

Just curious as to how many millimeters of picture this pixel cropping is chopping off the top on my 57" screen, something like 6 or 8 tops?? Big Whoop!

Cropping on the sides is not visible due to overscan.

It's a dirty little secret but the vast majority of crt based rptvs have more overscan at 1080i than at 480p due to the fact that the commonly used 7" crts aren't capable of full HD-spec pixel count.

Pixel cropping may or may not be a critical factor when using a front projector, depending on individual anality, but it's pretty much a non-issue with crt based rptvs. As I stated previously the Zenith is not necessarily the answer for all users and is most effective with crt based rptvs capable of native 1080i via component inputs.

People using fixed pixel displays with native 480p or 720p scanrates, and/or front projectors would do well to carefully consider whether the Zenith will fullfill their requirements.

To answer another post, the Zenith can do an infinite (not stepped) vertical-only zoom, perfect for non-anamorphic widescreen films. Since it is stepless it's a bit of a job to get the vertical stretch exactly right. I put in a 2:35 anamorphic and marked the position of the black bars on the screen frame with a couple pieces of tape so I have a reference when stretching non-anamorphic letterbox discs.

I have tried several other players with scaling capability for non-anamorphic discs, 2 JVCs and a Panny, and the Zenith has by far the best pq for this purpose--sharper and with virtually no scaling-induced artifacting.

not an issue with the X1 as it can easily be adjusted.

It IS an issue with the X1. I did stretch the cropping out of existence, but it is still there. Thus I am getting an EVVvvvver so slightly stretched image, and I am losing a bit of the image. The top/bottom cropping seems to me to be within reasonable limits...and is even more minimized for widescreen stuff. But the right side cropping is not excuseable.

Steve S makes a good point, though, with CRT based sets, the cropping may not even be visible, due to the natural overscan of the set.

Why dont you guys email Zenith about it? Maybe if they get enough emails about the problem they will fix it faster.

My Amazon.com order wont ship till the end of August! So grr! Seemed good for the price.

It is a good player, especially for the price. In my posts here I do not mean to come off as bashing the player. That is not my intent. I do own one after all. I think it's a good player, but it could be much better if the base video issues were fixed. When I bought mine all I heard was how incredible the image was and it was just like HD. When I got it, I saw video issues with it that many reviewers had overlooked. The secrets review found them and didn't overlook them. It is a very good player for the money and worth giving it a shot. It's just that you may notice issues with it that your old player didn't have.

Zenith is well aware of the issues. If you follow the threads over at AVS forum, you'll see that many there have contacted Zenith regarding many issues. One gentleman on the forum is "beta" testing the firmware fixes with Zenith. All we can do is wait for the firmware and see what it fixes. All that is known right now is that it fixes the white crush issue with the DVI output. If they can fix the other issues like pixel cropping, incorrect black levels, etc, the core video stuff, it would be a great player. If you could get a player that does faroudja upconverting like the Zenith with the core video quality of a player like the Panasonic RP91 or RP82, that would be hard to beat.

Greetings

You may want to think twice about upgrading the firmware when it becomes available. While the DVI section's white crush issue has been addressed, there is a small land mine in the revision.

1080i Component capability appears to have been a casualty with the revision. Most Hollywood films with copy protection will be restricted to 480p via component. I tried films like Attack of the Clones, ST-Nemesis, Spiderman ... and all forced 480p from the unit. Push it back to 1080i ... press play ... and you are at 480p again.

Regards

Wow.. No firmware updates for me!!!! lol

On another note, I finally tried the vertical zoom thing, and man no kidding that is like the coolest thing on non-anamorphic widescreen material. I did not test for the pixel cropping yet though.

I used "Capricorn One" to test the vertical zoom, wokred fantastic. I am also glad I got another one with the same build date, to sort of save back for when / if it ever goes out.

Man they took out the Component Video 1080i thing.. Bummer.
I'm glad I jumped on it for sure.

wow....a bummer.


not for me.

has anyone ever found away (NOT dependent on some sort of display message from the TV) to tell if you are DEFINITELY getting the upconverted signal? my tv doesnt have any way to display if the incoming signal is 480p or 1080i, (it's a Samsung TXM3096), & this talk about firmware disabling 1080i has me worried, as I was one of the people who saw SOME improvement w/ the 1080i, but seemingly not as drastic improvements as others (my machine is fairly new as well, probably only a few months old, & i dont know the firmware date on it)
hmmph, I guess I just need to hit the upconvert button & see if there is a notceable difference between 480p & 1080i i suppose, but i was wondering if there was some definite way (perhaps some test pattern on AVIA or something)

I thought that the no 1080i through component was just a rumor and that its not true?

I thought that when you change the resolution it will say on the front display panel?

Oh I am confused about the cropping issue. When you mean it crops, is there a black bar where the pixels should be? Or are the pixels just missing and it blow up the pic a bit? Somebody please explain?

I'm still on the limb with the player, I think I'll order it though. I just wish it could play Divx! I emailed them and they said they had no plans. Blah. I also emailed and asked if they had any info on a new version of the player. They misunderstood my question. When was the DVB318 released anyways?

This news is making me consider...I don't like the cropping (or the slight green oversaturation).

I'm thinking I will wait until the units are all coming out with the new evil firmware. When the ebay price hits a high, I'll ebay it off and get myself a Denon DVD 1910 or 1710. If reviews coming in are good, that is.

I mean, I don't even need the 1080i at this point. But I'm not going to flash it and eliminate it, either, just to fix the cropping, etc. I'd rather get to someone else who wants it for the 1080i

Anthony,

The vast majority of tvs disable aspect ratio control when receiving 720p or 1080i. If you have another HD scanrate source such as an HD tuner you can confirm whether or not your Samsung is one of them. If your set loses aspect ratio control with 1080i from an HD stb, it will also lose it when recieving 1080i from the Zenith.

Michael TLV has confirmed that the software upgrade eliminates 1080i from component outputs, which is a shame.

Historically there have been any number of players available which allowed us to circumvent the studios' restrictions, starting with the original Sony ES units which had dipswitches to make them region free, the early Apex units with a service menu option to do the same, etc.

While I'm sorry to see the Zenith's 1080i via component go away, it's actually somewhat surprising that so many of them got out before the "lock".

And with this rumoured in the past (lack of comp 1080i), this was probebly one of the number one reasons for the great interest in getting the player now before the lockout.

And it's not going to sell at all once they lock that out. Especially if they don't fix the 480p output.

Wait a min. So the 1080i lockout is true? I thought it was just a rumor?

If its true, man we need people who can do hacks with dvd players.

Can somebody explain the pixel cropping to me?

I guess I'll live with mine the way it is.

The real issue is whether you can expect compensation from LG for the statements regarding the "upconversion over component" thing.

B

It is apparently true. Michael TLV has been "beta" testing the firmware for zenith, so he has first-hand experience.

The pixel cropping is image cropping. The player is cropping off pixels from the image. According to the Secrets test, it crops 3 pixels from the top, 0 from the bottom, 3 from the left, and 15 from the right. My hope is that the firmware will fix this and the other core video issues. I have two DVI inputs so if the firmware fixes these issues, I'll probably update.



I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

yes the lock out is true.


I am really disappointed as Zenith makes no secret about what this player can do over component. I really am peed that they are changing the component out over 1080i.

so basically LG made the firmware for maybe 25% of the people who bought this machine as we all know the majority bought it for the component 1080i output. what a waste of time on this firmware!!!!!!!

Its true? Meh.

I just put in an order for it at Gochnauers. If I dont like it I'll just sell it on ebay or something.

The players with March 2004 Build should be ok still.

As he posted it is the firmare update that seems to not support it. I'm sure some movies will still play over it the manual indicates.

The manual of this thing clearly states, that Copy portected movies will not play out the component video ports at 1080i. Even though it works for every single DVD in the revision I have.

does anyone know if you can reflash the player back to the old firmware?

i'm sure it could be done with a little timestamp trickery or something.

Greetings

I'm sure you could reflash to an older version. The problem is ... there is nothing to reflash it to. The old firmware is not available for download.

Regards

I was putting off going through the Zenith exchange program to correct the erratic DVI handshake or the strange rectangular artifact at 1080i within the black bands for fear of having the exchange unit arriving with the upconverting components disabled. Good thing I procrastinated. Guess I will live with the finicky handshaking----doesn't really matter for me since I prefer the component video and I use the 720p mode for the lcd montior anyways.

Ross,
You are probably OK. The firmware is supposedly in beta (right Michael?) - no one has confirmed a unit with disabled 1080i component output yet - even the March manufactured units. You should not procrastinate - do the opposite - hurry! Before the firmware becomes final.