Zenith DVB 318 & LG 7832 DVD Player merged thread - Page 6

yes, it can do 1080i via component. PQ on my crt based HD-ready rptv when watching film based material is close to but not equal to the same movie on HBO-HD or Showtime HD, but not close to video based HD stuff from HDNet, Discovery HD, or INHD.

I'm not at all familiar with your pj, and am assuming it's an lcd or dlp unit. I've waded thru the entire thread over at AVS and results with fixed pixel displays vary widely. That being said, if your pj handles 1080i from an HDTV tuner box well it should also work well with the DVB-318.

You will have to switch the Zenith to 480p for 4/3 stuff if your pj locks into widescreen mode when fed 1080i, and some people have reported color bleeding at 480p though I've seen none at 480p with my crt based display. One guy in particular with an Infocus pj is reporting bad color bleeding at 480p. For non-anamorphic widescreen you can do a vertical-only zoom with the player that looks very nice, and leave it at 1080i.

The Zenith does have the Faroudja dcdi chip.

You won't get true HD quality with the Zenith, all DVDs have a source resolution of 720x480. Upconverting to an HD format won't create true HD resolution since the source doesn't have the pixels, you have to wait for blue-laser HD-DVD format for that.

Chris did mention in his post the awareness of limitations inherent in upconverting, so no one is under the illusion that the DVB 318 will give "true" HD quality. But it does look incredible; I watched FINDING NEMO last night, and the image looked amazing, with incredible depth and color. Many people would have assumed it was a HD source if they just walked in the room without knowing that it was a DVD. It looked much better than my top rated RP 82.

Here's a link to the new Secrets test of the Zenith. It scored well below the RP82, and according to secrets, it "has a lot of issues in it's core performance".

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=118

Don,
Ya know, I still like the pic from the Zenith better than that of my CP-72. 15 clipped pixels gets eaten up by overscan on my tv and the YC delay at 1080i over component is the same as my Panny CP-72. My CP-72 also failed the 2/2 thing, same as the Z. The overall score difference between my CP-72 and my DVB-318 is only 3 points, not a huge difference and their test totally ignores the improved resolution and scaling features of the Zenith which for my purposes is more important than the stuff it rated lower for.

Frankly I don't see enough bad about the Zenith in the Secrets report to negate the advantages of 1080i upconversion via component and the ability to very nicely scale non-anamorphic widescreen, but as I've said before different users have different priorities. Hell, I prefer my JVC to my Panny, and the JVC only scored a lousy 59 (still better than the $1799 model though).

So tell ya what, Don, you keep your panny and I'll keep my Z and we'll both be happy with our choices.:wink: :wink:

Not on my setup they don't(well, at least the RP82; I've never seen the XP30). I've watched portions of the following movies so far, and all of them-with one exception-look better on the DVB 318 than the RP82 on my setup:
EPISODE II
FINDING NEMO
PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN(so-so transfer, but what is good in it was brought out by the 318)
ALIEN
X-MEN 2
TERMINATOR 2 Extreme Edition(jaw droppingly gorgeous; almost HD in appearance)
TERMINATOR 3
SPIDER-MAN Superbit
LOTR:FOTR EE
MOULIN ROUGE!
THE MASK OF ZORRO Superbit
SEABISCUIT
MATRIX RELOADED
The only DVD that didn't seem as good to me on the 382 compared to the 82 was RETURN OF THE KING. For some reason, it just had a flat, grainy look, with loads of noticable edge enhancement. I thought it looked better on the 82, perhaps because there is slightly less detail on that machine, and the picture was "smoothed" out. Otherwise, the 318 is a superb machine in every way. I don't care about remote control ergonomics or how much of a pain in the ass something is to set up(though, like anyone, I prefer everything to be as perfect as possible), I only want the best picture quality I can get for the money I can afford. The DVB 318 has done that for me in spades. I'll be happy with this machine until HD-DVD comes along, in whatever form.

The Secrets tests showed the increase in Y/C delay (the cause of reported color bleeding) in 480p mode which is needed for watching 4:3 DVD titles to get proper aspect ratio since the Zenith stretches 4:3 titles in 1080i mode. The large amount of pixel cropping on the Zenith isn't hidden by a TV's overscan - it adds to that. The XP30 is rated 11 points higher, I'll still recommend it as the best choice for now.

Don,

Since I obviously have an imperfect understanding of "pixel cropping" maybe I could politely ask what percentage of the picture 15 pixels represents at a 1080i scanrate (if scanrate makes a difference).?

My Sony rptv has noticeaby more overscan when fed 1080i than 480p anyway, probably due to the limitations of it's 7" crts and their inability to display what a purist would call a true HD pixel count. I've noticed that picture centering can vary from one source to another regardless of incoming scanrate, so am probably unusual in my tolerance for overscan, preferring it to the possibility of black lines at the side of the screen if a source is off-center by an inch or more.

Another funny thing is that although I never noticed scanlines at 480p on my crt based set (scanlines don't appear on fixed pixel displays iirc?) since using the Zenith in 1080i I'm more conscious of them when watching at 480p. Not that it ruins the experience outright, just that 480p looks more like video and 1080i looks more like film.

That "looking more like film" is also why I still like crt based rptvs to the new fixed pixel displays despite the latter's advantages with regard to burn-in resistance and viewing angle. Maybe it could be equated to those who prefer the sound of vinyl records to cds, though I'm not one of those!

Here you go:

0000 006D 0022 0003 00AC 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0680 00AC 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0E55

I grabbed this from a Pronto TSU3000 PCF file posted at Remote Central and have verified that it DOES work. You can download the entire PCF HERE.

Doug,

Thanks a lot! That PCF file will be extremely useful! I didn't even think about looking in the TSU3000 section.

You're welcome David. There are all kinds of undocumented remote codes in that file. It's quite a little goldmine. Have fun!

That's kind of how I feel. I moved from a CP72 to the Zenith, and it is definitely a lateral move for the most part. The pixel cropping is irritating. That's mainly the only difference. If Zenith cleans up the image crop deal I'll be satisfied. I can wish for a cleaner 480p mode without the color bleeding (it would help for touchy stuff like anime that seems to display more up/down-converting problems to my 480p display), but for $200 I'm happy.

It's certainly better than all the other current players.
I'm glad to see it come out so well in the Secrets test - I trust their thorough testing to what I, as a casual watcher, notice. My main concern is really de-interlacing artifacts/combing and MPEG decoder. I feel these are the biggest issues for a player to pass, and the Secrets guys do a great job testing.

I don't notice the pixels or cropping issue at all on my set(Panny PTWX4753). I don't want to know how to find it either, as everything looks great the way it is!

Watched SLEEPING BEAUTY yesterday on the DVB 318; it looked 3-D, with eye popping, solid colors, and extreme fine detail. Maybe my RP 82 wasn't set up right, or maybe it's defective, because I always noticed smeary reds when watching anything colorful on that player, no matter how good the rest of the picture was(and the RP 82 is a great player in most respects). It might have been the televisions I've viewed it on(I've used it on two different sets, a Samsung Tantus Standard Definition LCD that didn't have progressive scan, you could only do 480p through the set itself, and my current Panny 47"). But for some reason, this Zenith player is just matched beautifully to my 47" CRT.
Maybe the Zenith is better for rear projectors, and the Panny RP 82 and other similiar players are more suited to front projectors.

Is the Zenith upconversion circuitry essentially the same as the Hitachi Virtual HD? When watching DVD on the Hitachi, the Hitachi upconverts the 480p to either 540p or 1080i. The Hitachi does not display 480p in its native form.

It's the same concept, expect the Hitachi uses it's own line doubler to upconvert and the Zenith is using the Faroudja FLI-2310 deinterlacer. It upconverts 480i to 480p, which is then scaled to 1080p, which is then re-interlaced to 1080i. To me, the results seem to be pretty dependent upon your display. I have a HDTV that allows native 480p and I don't really see any significant improvment using the Zeniths 1080i over 480p. Others here feel it makes a significant difference. Your mileage may vary.

Nice talk all

If the Hitachi upconversion is equivalent to what the Zenith does, no need to invest in an upconverting DVD player. I will keep my current DVD player. My Memorex MT3010 LCD is another story. It does not have DVI input so the Zenith being able to upconvert to 720p via component outs is ideal; matching the LCDpanel's native resolution.

I also noticed that CC sells the LG model that is a combo upconverting DVD and a HD OTA receiver; but unlike the LG7832, it appears upconversion only occurs via dvi outs only, not good for my application.

I own an ISF'd Hitachi 57SWX20B and the DVB318 and find that the player's upconversion is superior to the displays. Better detail, fewer artifacts, more filmlike. I find this to be true on both component and DVI inputs.

greg_t is absolutely right - your mileage may vary. It's always better to actually audition something in your system rather than rely on comments from others. There are far to many variables to make anyone's impressions or opinions absolute.

I have a Sony 34XBR910 direct view CRT. I think it has native resolution of 1080i and is supposed to upconvert all signals to 1080i.

I find that the upconversion to 1080i through the Zenith DVB318 is superior to the upconversion by the TV. The DVB318 upconversion results in a much smoother more filmlike picture. This is especially evidently from a couple of feet away on curved and slanted surfaces. From a greater distance, the effect is a more filmlike appearance. I am hooked up through the component outputs and have not run a comparison of DVI to component. I am very happy using the component with high quality Tara Labs cable.

Though the do the same thing essenially, they are FAR from being equivalent in the quality image it produces.

The source the TV's upconverter has to deal with is much POORER than the source an upconverting DVD player has to deal with. The TV's source being a 480i signal over analog connections, which severely degrades in quality compared to the source of DVD players, which is a pure clean digital picture.

It looks like the rumor of Zenith disabling the upconversion via component video is starting to cross that threshold into possible reality.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...27#post4013027 Just the last page or so of this thread should tell you enough.

I'll say the same thing here I said there. (I am the Q guy on AVS.)

If Zenith really does this, it's a foolish, suicide move. I sincerely hope they do a lot of smoke and mirrors officially, do the Cover Your Ass, and find ways unofficially at least, to keep their customers happy.

I hate whatever law this is that makes these manufacterers do this. I fail to make the connection between upconverting and stealing/piracy.

This is most unfortunate.

LiteOn was forced to quit selling their 1080i capable LVD-2001, but it still exists as the Norcent 501M (though with about a $30 premium over the LVD-2001 cost). Perhaps Zenith will be able to do the same.

There is no law that "makes these manufacturers do this", other than the laws that make the manufacturers honor the contract they have with the DVD Forum that allows them to manufacture and sell DVD players.

Yes, the DVD Forum is Evil.

If that happens, just order the canadian version, LG 7832.

Assuming I can get one with 1080i over component, would the DVB318 qualify as an upgrade over my Panasonic RP-56 for use with a Panasonic 53WX42 HDTV?

Thanks for any input.

It really depends on whom you ask.

I also have an RP 56 and I tried the LG 7832 (the Canadian version of the Zenith 318) for a couple of weeks. The image at 1080i was a hair sharper on the LG. But on the downside, the picture looked a little green, and my set locks into "full" mode when receiving a 1080i signal - so there's no way to properly display a 4:3 image. Switching to 480p solves that problem, but the LG has colour bleeding/smearing problems at 480p. For some reason, it also outputs a 7.5IRE signal at 480p, but a 0IRE signal at 1080i over component, so you have to adjust your picture settings when changing resolutions.

In the end, I found that I preferred the RP 56 overall, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

The only way to find out is to test it on your system.

Thanks for the info, Andre! I'm thinking of buying the 318, keeping the RP-56 also hooked up for viewing TV shows on DVD etc. (4:3 stuff, as it appears the 318 has problems with that). The 1080i thing just fascinates me.

Like Andre, I have a Zenith 318 and a Panasonic XP30, which also has the faroudja deinterlacer like the RP56. I'm using a 53" pioneer elite. I also found the Zenith to be a little bit sharper at 1080i, but overall prefer the XP30. I didn't like the zeniths 480p output at all, it was definitely at it's best at 1080i, but in my opinion, the XP30 is the better player. The Zenith is buggyand has core video issues, but perhaps the issues can be addressed with a later firmware upgrade. But like Andre said, you really need to try it for yourselves, but I wouldn't expect to see a night and day difference or expect HD quality.

I'm using the DVB 318 with a Panny 47wx53, and I think it looks terrific, even better than the Panasonic RP 82 DVD(which I also have). Well mastered DVD's look amazing on this player at 1080i; I haven't experienced the smearing at 480p like others have. The other night I watched JOAN OF ARC, a 1948 film in full Technicolor(and 4:3, so I watched it in 480p), and I would have expected to see runny reds on that film, but I didn't. Now, I will say that the 480p on the DVB 318 isn't as good as it is on the RP 82, but it's still acceptable. The main reason to get this player is for the 1080i component output; that's where it shines, IMHO.

Well like many others I decided to try the Zenith DVB318 out even though I own the Panasonic RP82 which is a reference 480P DVD player. I have been extremely happy with the RP82 with all types of DVDs and transfers, but I wanted to try a good upconverting player with the Faroudja deinterlacer in it. I remember being the first person on the forum to open up and verify that the Panasonic CP72 had the same chipset as the RP82/XP30/XP50. I also found that the XP50 had a noticably softer PQ then the RP82/XP30 and the only explanation for it was probably a firmware change. That is why I decided to stay with the RP82 the whole time. I will give you my opinion on all the features of the Zenith's features as they looked played back on my good old Toshiba 57H81 RP HDTV.

1080i Picture Quality
Once I got the Zenith hooked up I definitely needed to calibrate my HDTV with AVIA. I had to lower the contrast 10% or so and that was about all I remember changing. I found the Zenith DVD logo to have razor sharp edges and it had a big 3D look to it. The colors also jumped out of the screen in 1080i on the DVD logo. I tried LOTR:FOTR dvd first and it was so clear that you could see film grain specs. The colors looked very natural and objects and people looked more 3D then my RP82. The PQ is definitely sharper then my RP82 and at this point I am starting to be impressed. I have noticed no over saturation of green in the darker areas either. I don't think LOTR dvds are the sharpest PQ DVDs but they are definitely very smooth and film like. Next dvd I tried was Finding Nemo. I did notice some slight pixelation in darker areas that the RP82 never displayed. I would call it neck and neck on most scenes with the RP82. There might have been some scenes that were slightly sharper on the Zenith, but they were nothing to write home about. Next I tried Ice Age dvd and I was blown away by the PQ on it. The Zenith had much shaprer edges then the RP82, and it was much more 3D looking then the RP82 on this dvd. I then tried Super Troops which I have found to be one of the sharpest PQ film dvds, and the Zenith had a much sharper and life-like PQ compared to the RP82 at 480P. I could see every pore in the guy's faces when they were first getting busted by the cops for weed on the side of the highway. Then I tried The Fifth Element Superbit dvd out and once again the Zenith had a sharper and more 3D PQ then the RP82. Finally I tried my home videos that I made with my Sony TRV22 MiniDv camcorder and encoded at a constant 8Mbs bitrate with Dolby Digital 2.0 sound. I found the PQ to be much more desirable at 480P obviously because the player locks you in at widescreen aspect only at 1080i thus stretching the 4:3 native video and causing artifacts etc. At 480P my home videos looked just as good as they did on the RP82 and I am very happy for that. Overall I feel the Zenith has about a 30% sharper and more HD like PQ then the RP82 on most high quality transfer dvd material. I wouldn't dare say it is HBO-HD quality but it is within 10% of the PQ on better dvd transfers such as Ice Age, Super Troopers, and The Fifth Element that I tried.

480P Picture Quality
The Zenith DVD logo screen had slight ghosting around the edges of objects, but nothing to frown about. I tried LOTR:FOTR dvd it looked slightly softer then the RP82 in 480P, but the colors looked good and the detail was still there. The difference was similar to what I found between the XP50 and being slightly softer then the RP82. I noticed no artifacts or color smearing in the picture at 480P like some users report on their displays. I also tried The Fifth Element Superbit, Ice Age, and Super Troopers(One of the sharpest PQ movies I have seen) and I found them all to display a slightly softer PQ compared to the RP82, but still above par 480P PQ.

Audio Quality
Just like everyone else I found the 5.1DD and DTS, 6.1 DTS sound to be very spacious and accurate through the optical and coaxial connection. The dvd sound is definitely richer and more spacious then my RP82 and the difference was very noticable on all content including my home videos. Even the sound from my MP3's encoded with LAME at 192kbps Stereo were even closer to CD sound then my RP82 played them.

Menu Navigation And Auto Play
I found the menu navigation to be adequate and fairly well laid out. Not too many options to burden the user with and a nice looking UI. I did find the remote to be a little less repsonsive then others, but if you press the buttons harder it seemed to respond better. I absolutely love the Auto play feature that skips all the BS messages at the beginning of dvds and goes straight to the movie feature. It has worked fine for me on all dvds and I highly recommend using it unless you are loading diagnostic dvds such as AVIA and then it will lock up.

MP3, JPG, And DVD-R Playback
The Zenith has an awesome MP3 and JPG playback user interface. It is very windows like and you can setup playlists with MP3 and shuffle them etc. It also displays the full MP3 file name at the bottom of the screen which is awesome. As far as JPG playback it is also A+. Has the the same great user interface and it allows you to do a playlist of JPGs and run a slideshow with different speeds of playback. Ihis player loads raw JPGS or Kodak Photo CD and when it does it displays PIC on the display which is cool. It loaded my 160KB JPGs in 1 second, 600KB JPGs in 2-3 seconds, and my 2MB JPGS in around 7-10 seconds which is outstanding loading times compared to other players I have auditioned such as the JVCs that took up to 1 minute to load the bigger JPGs. This player loves all brands of DVD-R media types that are burnt at any speed between 1X-8X.

I would like to mention that my Panasonic RP82 has been retired to the bedroom, because the Zenith matches or trumps it in every area, and also adds cool bonus features when it comes to MP3 and JPG playback. I found the looks of the player to be decent and not too cheap looking. The LCD display is very easy to read from 10 feet away and the icons on screen are decent also. I also noticed no types of ghosting on on my Toshiba 57H81 in 1080i mode from this player as I did in 480P mode on both this player and the Panasonic RP82. The reason for that is these Toshibas were known to ghost with 480i/480P content because of the upscaling the TV does to all 480 content to bring it up to 540P. That would be another reason to buy this player if you owned a RP HDTv that has that flaw like the Toshibas. The Zenith at 1080i will bypass the upscaling that your TV does and it will therefore get rid of your ghosting on dvds! I would highly recommend the Zenith DVB318 if you have a RP HDTV and want to see an awesome upconverted DVD picture!