Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Music › What's the point to a 'hidden track'?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What's the point to a 'hidden track'?

post #1 of 41
5/11/04 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 
Ok, when they first started doing this, it was a fun novelty, but it seems like every CD I get has one. What's the deal? It's about as annoying as Easter Eggs on DVD's.

The real question up for debate is, is there some sort of legal (or cost) thing involved with a hidden (or bonus) track? or is it just flat out a novelty?

I mean, I remember when CD's first came out, they used to put 'bonus' tracks on CD's (and not on the casettes). I assume this was probably because casette manufacturing would cost per minute. I'm sure there was an increase in cost if you went over 60 minutes (because they needed to add more physical tape to the casette), but the CD process won't cost any more to "fill it up"?

If this were true, why do they still do this? Is it to make more work for those who want to 'rip' to MP3's? Do they pay per track and putting 2 songs on one track makes it a cheap way to get 14 songs but only pay for 13?

Or am I just looking too much into this?
Reply
post #2 of 41
5/11/04 at 2:21pm
I've seen where people have done it with covers of songs, so i think they dont have to credit the songwriters? and some have been limited pressings, some of Nirvana's Nevermind had an extra track but 2 of 3 copies I've had didnt?
Reply
post #3 of 41
5/11/04 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
they dont have to credit the songwriters?
I forgot to add that in my first post (i.e. not listing the track)...I was going to ask what would be the advantage of a not listing a track on a CD and the above answer seems to make sense.
Quote:
and some have been limited pressings
I was thinking that might be the case (this way they don't need to produce 2 different sets of jacket art), but some CD's will say that there is a bonus track right in the song listing (on the back).

It's like the DVD's that list Easter Eggs as extras.
Reply
post #4 of 41
5/11/04 at 3:13pm
What I really hate is when a hidden track isn't even a seperate track, but just part of another one. Like when the last song is 4 minutes, but the track is 10 minutes, which consists of the song, than 4 minutes of nothing, than a two minute "cute" ditty to top it off. So now I can't put that last song onto a mix or anything.
Reply
post #5 of 41
5/11/04 at 6:12pm
Exactly. That's why after buying the UK In Utero CD with a bonus track, I went out and bought the US one too.
Reply
post #6 of 41
5/11/04 at 6:48pm
Aric, here's the story about Endless Nameless, the hidden track on Nevermind...

Quote:
Some copies of the American compact disc contain the hidden track "Endless, Nameless." It's unlisted, but can be found about ten minutes after "Something In The Way" ends (13:51 of track 12). The song, which can also be found on some Come As You Are singles, was rumored to have been accidentally omitted from the first pressing in America. (Nevermind: Nirvana reports that the first pressing totaled 46,251 copies, though the book is vague about the format.)

When the mistake was realized, the song was put on subsequent pressings of the CD. The problem, though, is that there is no way to distinguish a CD with the song from a CD without it (that we know of). The easiest way to check is simply to compare the length of the disc in a CD player.

"Endless, Nameless" was included on American CDs for several years, but in the late 1990s DGC stopped this practice. The song can probably still be found, though, on at least one European pressing of the disc. In fact, despite the commonly believed misconception that the song was only available in the United States, "Endless, Nameless" has apparently always been available on CDs made in the United Kingdom, and possibly Germany, too.
(From http://www.nirvanadiscography.com)

My copy of Nevermind, which I bought earlier on in the year, does not have Endless, Nameless. However, thanks to the magic of the internet, I have the song downloaded.

Quote:
I've seen where people have done it with covers of songs
I have seen that too. My copy of XIII by Mushroomhead has a cover of Crazy by Seal a minute after the end of the last track. However, in the booklet they do give credit to Seal.

Mike Broadman, you could just rip the last song into MP3 and use a program like Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit) to seperate the hidden track from the normal one.
Reply
post #7 of 41
5/11/04 at 6:49pm
In some cases, hidden tracks are last-minute additions after the artwork has been completed and produced, ie "Mr E's Beautiful Blues" from The Eels Daisies of the Galaxy. This is also the case w/ The Clash' "Train In Vain" which was a last-minute addition after the record jacket had been completed. My guess is that it's only remained an unlisted track in subsequent CD pressings to stay true to the original vinyl...
Reply
post #8 of 41
5/11/04 at 7:27pm
Not including the track on the listings won't affect liability to pay copyright royalties to the songwriter, since the song is there. As for credit, I'm not sure how guild rules affect this issue, but I'm pretty sure it won't affect the money issue -- which is the important one, innit?

It's one thing to include another unlisted track as a bonus, but it's rather annoying to "hide" it after 10-15 mins of silence. IIRC Robbie Williams and George Michael both have such "bonus tracks" (can't remember the names of the albums, though, Robbie's is his album of jazz standards, George's is his previous one with the red and black cover).
Reply
post #9 of 41
5/11/04 at 8:00pm
Yee, the name of that Robbie Williams album you are thinking of is Swing When You're Winning.
Reply
post #10 of 41
5/11/04 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 
Funny story about a hidden track...The Weird Al Yankovic album "Off the Deep End" has a hidden track that's about 11-12 minutes after the last song "You Don't Love Me Anymore". For those who don't know it, it's actually not a song, it's just a screaming guitar and a loud drum part with Weird Al screaming for about 5 seconds.

Anyways, I was listening to the last song one day and fell asleep halfway through (you can see where this is going)...after about 10 minutes, I was pretty much asleep when that screaming track came on and scared the CRAP out of me!

Actually, that hidden track also caused me some more grief. One day I was making a Weird Al compilation CD and forgot about that track. After putting it (along with 14 other songs) into Roxio, I was confused as to why it wouldn't burn. After seeing that the one song was over 14 minutes long, I realized why the CD was over full :b
Reply
post #11 of 41
5/12/04 at 9:39am
I too dislike the practice of having several minutes of blank space followed by some little ditty or bit of nothing. Guilty parties that come to mind include Super Furry Animals' Guerrila and the Yeah Yeah Yeahs' Fever to Tell. Sonic Youth's Experimental Jet Set makes you wait a more reasonable one minute. The best way to do this is simply to actually add another track and just not list it, as does Cibo Matto's Viva! La Woman.

On the other hand, when an older album is reissued with bonus tracks, I prefer there to be 10-15 seconds of blank space after the album proper ends (but not several minutes, obviously).

David Byrne's recent Grown Backwards was originally intended to be a 14-track album but then someone (maybe him) decided to add a remix of his Xpress-2 collaboration "Lazy" at the end. (It is listed though.) I felt like it didn't really fit and would have liked some blank space.

John Cale's Hobosapiens has a hidden track BEFORE track one; you have to hold the reverse button down until some -4:30. Amusingly, the little red-printed note behind the CD tray (which is easy to overlook) thanks you for your dilligence in reading said print and instructs you on how to find the track.
Reply
post #12 of 41
5/12/04 at 11:25am
IIRC, the CD version of Pearl Jam's "Vitalogy" has a hidden track on it somewhere, I forget what it is or where, I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the set.

And on the 2-CD release of the soundtrack to "Star Wars", after the alternate version of "Binary Sunset", there's a 2 1/2-minute gap of silence, followed by hidden tracks of the five original recordings of the "Star Wars" main theme. Oddly enough, these "hidden" tracks are mentioned in the liner notes.
Reply
post #13 of 41
5/12/04 at 11:39am
If it isn't listed (what's the point then?) then hidden tracks are a fun thing for me.

My copy of Sarah McLachlin's Fumbling Towards Ecstacy has the pretty acoustic version of "Posession" roughly one minute after the ending of track 12's (listed) song.

311's Transistor has one of those "backwards" hidden tracks placed before track 1: when you push play hit reverse to hear it but not all versions have it (mine does & this is partly why I am keeping mine even though it skips because it became incredibly scratched during heavy use at school during road trips, workouts (motivation use) and lending it out. What's funny is I owned it for almost five years before reading about the hidden track on 311's message board. It almost made the entire album seem new again for some reason.

LJ
Reply
post #14 of 41
5/12/04 at 2:21pm
The last Train CD had a sticker on the cover: "Includes Hidden Track." Not very well-hidden, eh?
Reply
post #15 of 41
5/12/04 at 4:05pm
By the way, the lamest hidden track I have ever heard is the one at the end of the album Ixnay on the Hombre by The Offspring. It's a few minutes of silence, and then some guy comes on and says, "I think you guys should try heavy metal. Kiss my ass! Hahaha!".

Also, Losing Streak by Less Than Jake has a hidden story before the first track. Pretty funny stuff!
Reply
post #16 of 41
5/12/04 at 7:31pm
Thread Starter 
How about the hidden track on the Strongbad CD?

It's Homestar Runner singing "Secret Song"
Reply
post #17 of 41
5/13/04 at 1:49pm
Why did they stop including "Endless, Nameless" on Nevermind? It's not like it cost them more to include it. I bought my copy a few months ago, and was disappointed when it wasn't there (although it makes it easier for me to add "Something in the Way" to my Nomad).
Reply
post #18 of 41
5/13/04 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Like when the last song is 4 minutes, but the track is 10 minutes, which consists of the song, than 4 minutes of nothing, than a two minute "cute" ditty to top it off. So now I can't put that last song onto a mix or anything.
Yeah, that really screws things up if you have a CD changer on random (for a party) and you hit that wall of silence for like 5 minutes
Quote:
although it makes it easier for me to add "Something in the Way" to my Nomad
I'm not sure of other riping apps, but iTunes has the ability to use in and out points when ripping MP3's from CD. This way you can first rip the song and have the ending point right after the first song, then reset the points to start at the beginning of the "hidden" song and end at the end of that. I know you can rip the song and use a sound editor, but iTunes cuts out that process and does it right from the start


I always thought a funny (and annoying) thing to do would be to put 10 minutes of silence after the last song and NOT put anything after it. That would really make people upset (like me)
Reply
post #19 of 41
5/13/04 at 3:12pm
Hey Mark, don't joke. I believe I have a couple CD's that literally have nothing after a long period of silence. Grr.

Now here's a really hidden track. Galactic Cowboys - Space In Your Face. There are two bonus tracks. One is Ranch On Mars, which is after about 10 tracks of silence. Easy enough to find. The second bonus track, Still Life Of Peace (I believe that's the title) runs from -6:00 or so to 0:00 on track 32. So you can't just track skip to it-you have to go to track 31 and the search ahead. Always a PITA.

Regarding removing silence and splitting tracks, it's primitive, but if you are using Windows you can save the CD track as a wav file and then open it in Windows Sound Recorder. Sound Recorder lets you move to different points in the file and delete everything before or after that point. I've done this on several occasions (before I had pro audio software like Cakewalk Sonar).
Reply
post #20 of 41
5/13/04 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Why did they stop including "Endless, Nameless" on Nevermind?
I have no idea why they did that. I guess only DGC would know the answer to that one.
Reply
post #21 of 41
5/13/04 at 5:36pm
Marilyn Manson's Antichrist Superstar has a short, untitled bonus cut on track 99. It comes after 82 tracks of complete silence, each lasting 4 seconds.
Reply
post #22 of 41
5/13/04 at 6:00pm
Maybe not exactly on topic, but how bout those 12 empty tracks of silence before Korn's FOLLOW THE LEADER album?
Reply
post #23 of 41
5/13/04 at 7:30pm
Probably the most clever hidden track I've seen is on Tool's "Opiate" EP. In order to hear it on the CD version, you have to sit through several minutes of silence, like on most other CDs with hidden tracks. The vinyl version, however, is a bit trickier. I bought the vinyl version last year and was dissapointed to find that it did not include the hidden track (or so I thought...). It turns out that it's a double-grooved vinyl. For those of you who have never encountered one of those before, the way a double-grooved vinyl works is that there are two groves on one side. Depending on where the needle falls, it will play one of the two grooves. In the case of the "Opiate", one groove is the normal side two and the other is the hidden song.

Another method that NIN used (like Manson's "Anti-Christ Superstar") on the "Broken" EP was to put 99 tracks on the CD. Tracks 7-97 were silence. Track 98 was "Physical" and track 99 was "Suck". Earlier printings of the CD had one CD as the full EP and a second CD with the two bonus tracks on it.
Reply
post #24 of 41
5/14/04 at 9:36am
J.River Media Center 10 (http://www.musicex.com/mediacenter/) has a "Do not play silence" playback option:

"If this option is selected, the program skips long portions of silence during playback. This is quite useful for hidden tracks or tracks with a lot of leading or trailing silence. This option may not be a good choice for classical music or other genres that contain long, intentional pauses in the middle of songs."
Reply
post #25 of 41
5/14/04 at 9:53am
I too like the idea of the multiple silent tracks seperating out the "hidden track." It makes life so much easier when making mix discs. I really do love them when I find 'em on the first listen (except for Becks Odelay where it's just annoying).

Michael
Reply
post #26 of 41
5/14/04 at 9:58am
Mr. Bungle's "Disco Volante" actually includes a hidden track along the lines of the "double groove" track you mentioned, Scott. On the CD, it's just part of track 3, but on the vinyl, you have to manually put the needle in the "hidden groove" to hear the song. The song is very good, and features someone (Patton?) doing vocals in a old-man voice talking about how "I found the secret song now/they wouldn't tell me/but somehow I found out." This has to be heard to get the full effect of the humor.

The hidden track that annoys me more than anything is the last track on Therapy?'s 1994 album "Troublegum" (one of my favorite discs of all time, hidden track aside). After the last track, a scratchy version of "You Are My Sunshine" plays and "away" skips for about six minutes, and after that it's record skipping (just the noise) for another ten minutes. Great album, but that irritates me to no end.

Sister Machine Gun's "Burn" CD has a hidden cover of "Strange Days" (which was supposed to have been on the SD film soundtrack at James Cameron's personal request, but Sony decided to put Prong on there doing a version that is remarkably similar to SMG's instead since Prong was a sony artist at the time) that is one of the "rewind" hidden tracks. Supposedly, Blind Melon did the "rewind" thing at one point as well, but I've never heard it so I can't really say if it's true or not.
Reply
post #27 of 41
5/14/04 at 12:24pm
Quote:
311's Transistor has one of those "backwards" hidden tracks placed before track 1: when you push play hit reverse to hear it but not all versions have it

Songs In The Key Of X, one of the X-Files series soundtracks includes two bonus tracks using the play track 1 and hit reverse method.

I used to keep track of which CDs had "hidden" tracks but I no longer keep it up to date. The list has 52 CDs with bonus tracks. All from the early to mid-90's.

I agree with many that the long periods of silence before a hidden song plays are annoying. CDs where the bonus track as it's own identity are much much nicer.

Is there a site which keeps track of hidden tracks? If not, perhaps we can start a list here.
Reply
post #28 of 41
5/14/04 at 3:43pm
Quote:
The vinyl version, however, is a bit trickier. I bought the vinyl version last year and was dissapointed to find that it did not include the hidden track (or so I thought...). It turns out that it's a double-grooved vinyl. For those of you who have never encountered one of those before, the way a double-grooved vinyl works is that there are two groves on one side. Depending on where the needle falls, it will play one of the two grooves. In the case of the "Opiate", one groove is the normal side two and the other is the hidden song.

There's also a double groove on the second side of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief LP from 1973.
Reply
post #29 of 41
5/14/04 at 5:14pm
You know what I find annoying about hidden tracks with just a long period of silence before them, the fact that it's so damn annoying to get it it!

For example, I love the hidden song (Eyeore) on Slipknot's self-titled album. However when I want to listen to it when I am driving, I have to fast forward through the last song, the silence, and the part with the band watching some sick porn movie or something. It just sucks having to fast forward through 10 minutes of stuff.
Reply
post #30 of 41
5/15/04 at 5:06am
for those who may want to know, evanescance have the rock version of my immortal as an unlisted bonus track on the newest releases of the album. (my borther got it.. thats how I found out).. lucky for my I like the album version much better so no loss to me.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Music
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Music › What's the point to a 'hidden track'?