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What do you suppose the Salary is for middle class?

post #1 of 119
Thread Starter 
I've always been very curious as to how much money Americans make. What is the salary you receive when you say, Ok this is what I'll retire doing, this is a good wage. Because right now I make $42k a year, and I have GOT to get a better job, because that's not enough.

I know that location plays a part, but on average how much is enough?
post #2 of 119
Totally depends on where you live. Some places $40K for one income is more than enough to be considered middle class. In others (major metropolitan areas) it is not.
post #3 of 119
Here is a nice report for you:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-221.pdf

How much money one makes vs. how much they "need" is a relative term based on lifestyle. You really only "need" enough money to buy food, clothing and shelter if that is not provided for you by others. Everything on top of that is just gravy.

In reality, we also use money to provide for education, health care, grooming, transportation, and various other items and services that make living easier. Within each category, the quality of goods/services varies greatly. No one "needs" a private school education or a BMW.

It is nice to think that even a "poor" person in America can have a surplus of food.
post #4 of 119
2-person relationship, one steady job, $21,000/year.


I'd stab puppies for an extra $21,000 a year. Then I'd waste it all on hats.
post #5 of 119
I think it mostly depends on location. Here in Northern Va (Fairfax County specifically) I think the average household income is somewhere in the mid 80k range.
That is pretty decent but when you consider that new single family homes in this county start at over 500k and new townhomes usually start at 400k it isn't cheap to live here.

Jeff
post #6 of 119
I don't make enough and others make too much. That pretty much sums up the general attitude of most people.
post #7 of 119
Thread Starter 
I mean, having enough for necessities is always the minimum requirement. But that's not why you go to college, and bust your ass for a degree.

I'd like to know how much do you make when you say, "Ok I've made it, I'm making the kind of money to live comfortably until I retire."
post #8 of 119
Again, nobody can answer that question for you, LaMarcus - read the replies, follow the links. It completely depends on the lifestyle you want, the amount of savings you want for retirement, how much credit you have, the number of children you're going to put through college etc, all wrapped up on where you live in the country.

One thing to note - just because you see people living an opulent lifestyle with lots of toys & nice "things", it doesn't mean they're earning enough to actually afford all those things. Lots of Americans have lots of credit beyond their means.
post #9 of 119
Quote:
I'd like to know how much do you make when you say, "Ok I've made it, I'm making the kind of money to live comfortably until I retire."
If you've answered the question, you're not playing the game right.
post #10 of 119
Quote:
I'd like to know how much do you make when you say, "Ok I've made it, I'm making the kind of money to live comfortably until I retire."
You can't look at it that way because you're not taking into account the possibility that there may be periods in your life where you have no income, i.e. layoffs, health problems, etc. Depending on how close you are to retirement, don't expect Social Security to be enough. A better approach is to figure out how much money you'll need for the lifestyle you want when you retire and work towards that.
post #11 of 119
Other than location, the main thing to consider is how many dependents you have. When I was single, I was making much more than I needed. Now I have a house, a fiance (working part time) and a baby girl at home, and I now find myself having to think about money much more than I used to.

Brian brought up a good point about Americans living outside of their means. Practially speaking, most people can't pay cash for a house or even a car, so those usually require a loan. However, I don't know how some people can justify carrying credit card balances for things like clothes and TVs. If I can't pay cash for it, I don't need it right now. I think a lot of people would have a heart attack if they knew what all that interest adds up to; they only see the $20 minimum payment.
post #12 of 119
I think I read a couple of years ago that the average American family earns $35,000 per year. Seems unreal that some people can live on that, but then again, I guess I could do it if I didn't feel the need to obsessively buy DVDs every Tuesday.
post #13 of 119
Quote:
Seems unreal that some people can live on that

The trick is buying used cars. Assuming you don't buy 2 brand new Ford Dreadnaughts every four years you can easily save $1600/month.

and buying socks at Wal*Mart doesn't hurt.
post #14 of 119
Well I am 21 yrs old, married, just built our brand new home, paid cash for my vehicle, paid cash for my wifes vehicle, still in college, pay for my own college, pay cash for my HT addiction, and do this all on our measly $35,000 a year. We pay off our credit cards every month, that we use only for gas and other things that require credit to pay for. I budget our money very well and we have extra money to spend on fun stuff like HT.

I have to say that if you budget your money right, anyone can live comfortably and still save for retirement. Even though I am 21, and still in college, I have started saving for retirement.

I see it as: save and invest as early as you can now, that way when retirement comes, it makes life so much easier when it comes time to relax and enjoy life. I by no means live so cheap that I don't have a good time now, it is all in the way you manage your money.

Once I get out of college, our income will more than double and then I will probably spend more also. But if people would learn to save what extra money they get, just think of how many years they could shave off before they retire. My goal is to retire somewhere between the ages of 55-60. My neighbor actually retired at 45. He was one of the biggest tightwads in his early years, and did this off of a $90,000 a year salary. The man and his wife live a nice lifestyle now and do not worry about money now. Anything is possible if you put your mind to it.

Most Americans spend what they make and more. So if you make more, you spend more. If people would just learn how to manage what they have, life would be so much easier. I can say that it is just me and my wife now. When kids come in the future, my extra income will be needed once out of college. So it does also depend on how many kids (people) you are supporting also.

My house is the only debt that I have and that is how it will always be in my future. At least until the house is paid off.

Sorry for the rant. I just see too many people that make so much more money than we do complain about money all of the time.
post #15 of 119
Reminds me of my first job many moons ago. I asked for a raise and my boss said "Why do you need more money ? The more you make the more you'll just spend." (no joke)

I didn't stay there much longer...... But he did have a point: As you start having more disposable income, the more your "needs" tend to grow. When I was just out of college I was happy with a 1 BR apartment, 19" tv and Sony floorstanding speakers.... Now I'm all ticked off because I only have a 50" LCD and crappy Energy speakers. Gotta keep up with the Joneses !
post #16 of 119
I can't say I've ever complained about money because I know I buy some pretty stupid stuff. Just trying to do the math, I figure that $35,000 equals about $26,000 after tax and insurance, or about $2,200 per month take home. Figure for a family of 4 per month:

Food: $200
House: $800 (incl. taxes, should equal a house worth $125M)
Car: $250 (1 car including insurance)
Gas/Auto Maintenance: $100
Utilities & Phone: $100
Clothes/Toiletries: $100
Incidentals: $100

That leaves $550/month for retirement savings (for two people), education savings for the kids, and cash savings for emergencies.

I guess it can be done, but there aren't too many places left where you can do it without a struggle.
post #17 of 119
Quote:
I'd like to know how much do you make when you say, "Ok I've made it, I'm making the kind of money to live comfortably until I retire."

About a month ago, John Stossel of ABC's 20/20 did a special report and asked almost exactly the above question. After an extensive look at incomes vs locations, the conclusion was that the majority of Amercians are certain that they need .... "about 20% more" to live very comfortably to retirement.

Think about it ... take your present annual household income, figure an additional 20% free spending money and you'd be much more happy ... right?

The point of this is clearly what several above posters have said ... your lifestyle will always expand to fit yoru income. For too many Americans, their lifestyle is just above their income (i.e. growing credit card debt). The average household credit card debt in america now exceeds $8,000. and each household has on average 7-10 credit cards.

the magic formula ... Figure out a career that you really enjoy and have a skill for, get the necessssary education, then work relentlessly at your vocation. 50-60+ hrs per week is what it's going to take to get ahead. Don't spend too much, don't take too many vacations and don't work multiple jobs. This is not a big secret, ask anyone who has "made it".

Jon Gregory ... my hat's off to you. You have a great deal to be proud of, but most of all your attitude and foresight.
post #18 of 119
Quote:
The Total Average Credit Balance by households in 2002: $8,387.

Yikes!

Not in my house. My total credit card debt, $512.00 but it is paid off every month. Other then my wifes van, we have no debt. I could have taken out a mortgage for the van but we got a nearly interest free loan so it was not worth it.
post #19 of 119
Phew - now I don't have to feel so bad! I started really getting concerned now that my total cc debt is closing in on a thousand (though May 1 I will pay about $700 of it off)...
post #20 of 119
Quote:
Figure for a family of 4 per month:

Food: $200


I wish! Just buying the bare essentials, without expensive name brands, we spend 3 times this much each month on food.

Quote:
House: $800 (incl. taxes, should equal a house worth $125M)


Again, I wish! In my area, you would be hard pressed to find a 2 bedroom apartment for this much. I imagine the average mortgage around here is about twice that.

Quote:
Utilities & Phone: $100


That isn't even as much as our electric bill. Then you add phone, cable (I know, not a necessity), oil, water bills...

What's my point? I don't really have one. Those figures just jumped out at me so I thought I would give my own spin on them.

It really is true that you just naturally change your spending habits when you have more or less money. And sometimes you end up doing more with less. 4 or 5 years ago, I was making $18000 more each year than I do now. Back then, we were renting, could hardly pay our bills and were generally broke all the time. Now we make less money, but own our own home and are actually doing much better financially.

Mike "I know there's a point in there somewhere" Pineo
post #21 of 119
*Warning - Random, disconnected thoughts below. I am so floored by the contents of this thread that my thoughts are in a complete disarray and I was unable to come up with an eloquent, coherent reply.*


I find this thread quite shocking. I participate in three forums: HTF, Car Audio Forum, and Glock Talk. Of the three, I have always perceived the HTF community to be by far the most affluent. Thousand dollar subwoofers? Thousand dollar speakers? Thousand dollar amplifiers? Multi-thousand dollar processors? Seems like everyone has them. And I haven't even gotten to source and display components, or any of the other stuff that comprise a home theater!

And now to discover the salaries of a few members - I'm baffled. Home theater is one of the most expensive hobbies I can think of. How do you guys do it?

Anthony, your hypothetical budget is nice and neat, but I just can't fathom how it could possibly work in real life. $200 per month to feed a family of four? I'm thinking more like at least $500.

Jon, your story is one of the most inspiring I have ever heard.
post #22 of 119
Well, I think what Vinh is getting at, is people always have money for what they REALLY want. You see people making what I make (under 50k) driving new 40-50 thousand dollar cars, can they afford it? sure, at the cost of other activites I'm sure. Same applies to HT gear. I cut costs everywhere I can to free up resources for other hobbies all the time, it's a balancing act.
post #23 of 119
How do I keep up at the most affluent website on the internet with a measly $21,000/year salary. Two ways:

1. I have no life. With no vacations to spend on, not smopking, drinking, doing drugs, renting $500 hookers, I dont really have much else to spend my money on. I'd be a shut-in if I could find a way around work.

2. No kids. this is the big one. Without kids, all my money is disposable!
post #24 of 119
Thread Starter 
Well mine goes as follows.
$740 (house)
$121 (lights)
$70 (phone)
$45 (water)
$10 (trash)
$55 (cell)
$120 (cable/hi speed)
$440 (car)
$300 (car)
----------
$1901

And we haven't eaten or driven any where and the credit cards haven't been paid yet. Our total house hold is $3200 monthly take home. And it's not enough for me to get that B4-Plus, Panny 500, Rockets, Berklines, and screen that I so desperately need.(not to mention amps and receiver)

So, it kills me to see folks here with all the cool toys I want. And it just makes me think, "Geez what the hell are they making, I need to get a job like that". But I know eventually once me and my fiancee are out of college, we'll be able to do it like the big boys. But I guess I'm just curious as to how the big boys do it. I guess you guys hit the nail on the head, that a lot of people live beyond their means with credit. I guess I should just be thankful for what I do have and also thankful for what I don't have (like a $1000+ credit debt, instead of a $600 one)
post #25 of 119
This is an interesting thread to be sure.

I think a big part of having nice things is the constant push of consumer culture -- "consumer" is a term that I find very much disquieting. Personally, my HT toys are the only thing I materially splurge on, and when I look at how much I've spent in the past year and a half it floors me.

LaMarcus, it's really hard to say what one wants and what one needs (what one NEEDS has already been discussed in this thread). No matter what though, don't get caught up in the crazy hardware elevator aspect of things - HT should be about enjoying the movies and music, not about bragging how much cash was spent on gear! You've got some pretty nice stuff. Go watch a movie and enjoy it.

Regarding income - many people here are older (and no offense is meant by this). People that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s. They may be empty-nesters or perhaps may not have kids at all. At this age the mortgage is likely paid off and there are few other liabilities, thus a large amount of disposable. The young uns like us have less gross income and have to pay off mortgages or rent. It's simply not gonna work.

Jon - you're an inspiration; I have no idea how you do it. I'm essentially debt free but being in school and having a place really takes the cake. congrats.

Remember -

Happiness is not having what you want -- it's wanting what you have.

(and I wish I could attribute this quotation, but I can't -- I believe it comes from Buddhist philosophy).
post #26 of 119
http://www.city-data.com

This site can give you all the info you might want about a certian place in the US.
Salary
Home prices
Population
Education
Ect

Even the big cities have relatively low median income levels.


Bill
post #27 of 119
This is long, but it is for those who want to know. I feel that I have left a story hanging in the air.

And thank you for everyones great comments.

Ok, for those that want to know how I do it. I drive a 1995 Nissan pickup that runs and looks brand new and I will drive it into the ground. She drives a 1997 Saturn that also drives and looks excellent. We decided that a house is more important than driving a new BMW down the road. I do all the maintenance myself on all of the vehicles I have ever owned (this can save you a bundle). The only thing that I have ever taken my cars in to have done was to put tires on, only because I don't have the hydraulic machines. We decided a few months ago that we could either rent or buy a house. I live in northwest Florida. A two bedroom apt. was going for around $600 a month. We looked at a few builders in the area and looked into one and found out that for about $100 more a month we could own our very own new house. Our house is a very modest 1500 sq ft, 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage. We could have gone bigger, the mortgage company was willing to lend us an astronomical amount, but we settled on a nice little house for the two of us. She graduated from nursing school last year and has been saving alot and I had been saving as much as I could also. We had a nice chuck for a down payment. I have been lucky with some good paying jobs while I have been in college for my Electrical Engineering Degree. I currently work as what they call a Engineering co-op job with the Navy Civil Service. I work one semester of school full time and then go to school full time the next semester, alternating back and forth. This allows me to save enough when I work to pay bills and live off of while in school for an entire semester. I worked my butt off in high school and got a scholarship that pays for 75% of my schooling and I pay the rest and for my books. The rest of our income comes from her job. Because she works at a hospital, we get excellent, cheap Med. benefits. Like I said before our income comes out to right around $35000-$40000 depending on whether I work 1 or 2 semesters in a year. Once I graduate with my electrical engineering degree I will be making twice what we make now and she will quit work then hopefully to take care of a new addition that will come later in life (you know, a child).

I manage our money very well and all I can say is we live modest lives, but not cheap, and save for what we want. We have multiple accounts that we put money into. I have my retirement that comes out of my check every pay check, she does the same with hers. We also put money away for an emergency fund. We put money away for toys, and about twice a year we get something nice, like my RPTV etc... We alternate between who gets the toy. Like she gets to put up a nice privacy fence that she wants next time since I got my TV, she is really into things for the house.

I guess you can say that we are living the long forgotten American Dream life. (At least this is what everyone tells us).

We live comfortable.
Could we use more money? Sure who can't use more.
Would I be happier with more money? Probably not.

I have found out that money is something that can never make you happy, comfortable, what ever you want to call it. If you live within your means and enjoy the people and things that you have around you other than money, and make good, sound choices in your life, your life will be richer than you ever dreamed.

Jason GT: I like the quote you refrenced and it is how I live my life.

"Happiness is not having what you want -- it's wanting what you have."


The end.
post #28 of 119
I'd consider a 2 income family in the 40-65K range total to be "middle class".

There are a lot of people doing much better than that, especially when EEs hook up with doctors (not a ref to Jon but to some other friends of mine), etc, but as plentiful as such couples are there are hella more doing far worse than that.


When I graduated I bought a new car, but I've kept it since 97 and have only a minimal desire for a different one since I still enjoy it quite a bit.

I have knocked down a lot of cash on HT stuff over the years, but now that I have comfortable and entertaining setups that are "correct", ie the speakers are balanced, the display can do high def and is reasonably large for the room, the receiver can properly drive the speakers at even the loudest enjoyable levels, I have very little desire to acquire more.

I still buy DVDs, but it has become less and less now that I have a significant portion of catalog titles that I would want to own. This is quite similar to how my CD collection has gone, which slowed way down after hitting 1K titles. I just have nearly everything I want to hear or see and have an environment that is enjoyable to do so in.


So I think it is mentally beneficial to have realistic goals that are semi-preset and based around practical desires like "I would like to be able to put in this album whever I want to and would do so several times a week. I would like my car to provide me with - pleasant handling, decent quickness, comfortable ride, good stereo," and so on. Having the goals clearly defined made it a lot easier to recognize when they had been reached and to curb any "must have more" foolhearty desires created simply by the need to compete or something.

I'm busy living my life, not my neighbor's.

Sometimes I find myself thinking some new thing might be cool, but rarely does it make it past the "would I really use that" test.

This isn't to say I don't spend. I do. But with a focused directive more like biz than an impulse buyer.


We sometimes do go out to eat and if I would cut anything it would be that. Less reward than cost most of the time. Unfortunately it is driven by my wife's peer group. As long as it doesn't get out of hand I figure its okay to ensure her social health and happiness, although she is less practical than I am. Guess its a good thing that I'm the one with the expensive hobby, I'm not sure if she could curb herself as much.



Quote:
"Happiness is not having what you want -- it's wanting what you have."
That should be everyone's daily mantra, seriously. Sounds simple but in practice its very tough for many people.

When I spend it is not simply for something I want, but moreso to eliminate something I don't want, say a CPU stand that greatly improves the organization of my living space over the daily discomfort of the old setup.

That way I can look at the purchase everyday and instead of seeking happiness FROM it (which usually leads to buyer remorse because initial happiness fades) I feel satisfaction in a problem that I eliminated, which is a strong feeling since I can easily reflect on the real frustration I had been feeling.

That's why being frugal isn't the key to happiness either. In fact its sort of a deceptive variation of the person trying to acquire wealth for happiness.

I've known many people who suffer as slaves to saving money only to have that money not lead to happiness for them later. It's like they lose track of why they make the money. It's only a bartering tool between the work you do and the THINGS you want, even if its less tangible things like the security of health insurance.

Rather than setting a WEALTH goal I think its far better to set up a list of THINGS wanted and WHY they are wanted. Protective cash against an economic downturn is fine, but of course in a crashing economy your things would have far more value than the cash you have/had in the bank.
post #29 of 119
Quote:
Well I am 21 yrs old, married, just built our brand new home, paid cash for my vehicle, paid cash for my wifes vehicle, still in college, pay for my own college, pay cash for my HT addiction, and do this all on our measly $35,000 a year. We pay off our credit cards every month, that we use only for gas and other things that require credit to pay for. I budget our money very well and we have extra money to spend on fun stuff like HT

You, sir, should write a book

Seriously.
post #30 of 119
Quote:
The Total Average Credit Balance by households in 2002: $8,387.


This is really an extremely sad fact. Think about it, 8 grand in credit card debt. That is like 18% interest per year on average. Yikes is right.

I wouldn't be able to survive without my credit card, but I always pay it off every month. I hardly ever carry any cash. I should be thankful however for those that pay interest, if everybody was like me they wouldn't offer credit cards because it wouldn't be profitable.
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